Can you fall from being saved?

[deu58]

Hi Lynn

Exactly. Dogs, not sheep of Christ. They were never born again or changed, otherwise they wouldn't be referred to as dogs. Jesus calls His own sheep,not dogs.

Thanks for adding that point, I never really looked at it from that persepective but you are right,

 

[Lynn73]

I heard it explained that way, probably in a book I was reading, and it made sense to me. These were people that may have been temporarily enlightened and listened to the truth for awhile but they ultimately rejected it and returned to their old ways. Some of these Scriptures people use to make us think we can lose salvation are being misinterpeted just like this one imho.

 

[deu58]

Hi Lynn

I heard it explained that way, probably in a book I was reading, and it made sense to me. These were people that may have been temporarily enlightened and listened to the truth for awhile but they ultimately rejected it and returned to their old ways. Some of these Scriptures people use to make us think we can lose salvation are being misinterpeted just like this one imho.

Actually it fits with descriptions in the parable of the sower and the wheat and tares so I am convinced that you are correct, We can not know the heart of the individual believer but God does,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[holo]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

 

[TreeOfLife]

My opinion is that while salvation cannot be lost, it can be forfeited. If the basis of our salvation is "faith" and "belief" and one chooses to walk away or stop believing, he or she has lost the only tie we have to God.

I have believed this for a long time. If I am incorrect please post scriptures. Just wanna make sure I am on the right track with this one.

The problem with it is that the basis of our salvation is not "faith" nor "belief", but the finished work of Jesus. If you have been saved your subsequent doubt or falling away is wholly incapable of reversing the finished work of the Lord God Almighty.

Every child you ever birth into this world will forever have your DNA signature within it. Every ounce of prideful self will that child can muster up in it's arrogance can never alter that one fact.

 

[deu58]

Hi Holo

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

Yeah I saw that to, I would have to look at the writings and the context that luther was using this statement in,

Luther also thought that killing jews was good idea to, Me personally if a man was murdering a thousand people a day and claiming to be a Christian I would have to doubt his claim,

yours in Christ
deu 58

 

[Godzchild]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

That statement would be incorrect because a true child of God would not murder 1000 times a day anyway so the point is moot.

 

[aggie03]

That statement would be incorrect because a true child of God would not murder 1000 times a day anyway so the point is moot.

The point is not moot. If one can never fall from grace, then what Luther said is true. I have heard baptist preachers say that you can commit murder, as often as you like, and still go to heaven. Apparently, it's not a moot point.

However, it does bring into the light the strangeness of this idea of OSAS. It just doesn't make sense...of course that may be my human limitations, but the Scriptures do certainly seem to point in the other direction.

 

[SavannahSage]

My view on this tends to be a bit different from some on this forum. I personally believed that once you are truly saved, that is it, you are saved. I have a family member who was 'saved' in a word of faith church. She spoke in tongues, got herself slain in the ol' Spirit when she could, so on and so forth. She is now living with her boyfriend, doesn't go to church anymore and 'religion' is no longer a part of her life. This perplexes some in my family. I just don't feel she ever became saved in the first place. I think she had a pseudo-salvation and never really understood true salvation and a true relationship with God. Sure, she lived a 'good' life by her definition, went to church, had all these signs and gifts from 'god' and she would have adamently told you then she was saved. That was her 'salvation' and not from God.

Having been hijacked into false beliefs and teachings, I think this is very common. If you are truly walking with God, you won't desert Him and He certainly will not desert you.

The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.

God bless.

Out of all the posts that I've read on this site, this one sums it up in a nutshell. This describes my past walk with the Lord. All fluff and no substance

 

[aggie03]

Other human beings are not able to make judgments about who is saved and who is not. We cannot talk about those who are "really saved" or "not really saved".

How can we know the spirit of another man? They must tell us. If someone claims to believe in God, and, then, later leaves, they have fallen away. It's really quite simple.

 

[romans6and6]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

I don't know about the above quote, but Luther did say this:

"Pecca fortiter sed crede fortius....Sin as you like provided you believe."

John Calvin also said in his "Institutes of Christian Religion:

"We maintain, therefore, that sin always exists in the saints, till they are divested of the mortal body...."

He also said:
But we maintain, according to the doctrine of the Scripture, the only standard of righteousness and sin, that the 'wages of sin is death,' and 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die;' but that the sins of believers are veniel [not causing death of the soul]..."

However, the Scriptures tell us a different story:

"The wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lusts, and enticed.
Then when lust is conceived , it brings for sin: and sin, when it it finished, brings forth death." (James 1:14-15)

Everytime "believe" is used in the Bible as pertaining to eternal life, it is always used in the present tense. One has to continue to believe to possess eternal life. It is not a "one time believing" when you made a "decision" to follow Christ. It is a continual believing and abiding in Him.

The devil told Adam and Eve that "Ye shall not surely die." But in the day that they ate of the fruit, they died spiritually and acquired a sinful and depraved nature.

God was right. The Scriptures are right. Do not listen to those who will tell you that a child of God can still commit the "works of the flesh" and still be saved. Paul said that if "ye do such things, ye shall not inherit the kingdom of God, (Galatians 5:21), and that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9)"

 

[Shiversblood]

I believe that anyone who is saved also can fall and no longer be saved. Your still human after you become saved, and can fall back into any sins old or new. You don't have to go back in time and try and say they were never saved in the first place, cuz a lot of people are truly saved, but something goes wrong, or they just eventually give up on rightousness. There are men in prison who were once very devout Christians but now they are serving long sentences. Anyone can go back from anything, its possible, and it happens.

 

[IamRedeemed]

And I would just like to add a comment and few more Scriptures for the OP to consider.

No one "loses" their salvation like a set of car keys. It doesn't happen overnight. But we certainly don't want to die in a prodigal state. The Scripture is clear that one most certainly can forsake the way and forfeit their inheritance.

A note to bear in mind always for future reference: We should always beware of folks who attempt to give an answer to Biblical questions such as the OPs, especially in dealing with essential and eternal matters such as this who start with "to me, it's like this", or "for me, it is like that" etc.
As the Lord has not left these matters to anyone's private interpretation.


Jude 1:3-6
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, ifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

I submit to you the following scriptures to consider:
1. Luke 15 "Lost Sheep" "Lost Coin" "Lost Boy" "Older Brother" Considering the "lost sheep" Jesus said, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep." Then there is a lot of "rejoicing." Why??

2. James 5:19 This verse addresses "brothers." We are told if he "wanders from the truth, and is brought back, a soul has been saved from death.

3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 Here are some who have "escaped the pollutions of the world through Jesus Christ, but are again entangled therein." Because they are overcome "they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."

Scripture does teach that a person can be saved and so sin as to lose their soul. God says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test." (2 Cor. 13:5)

The lost sheep of Luke 15:1ff "wandered off." God does not forsake us, but we can forsake him.

 

[MarkEvan]

How the heck did this thread get resurected from 2005?

 

[aggie03]

As the Lord has not left these matters to anyone's private interpretation.

Excellent point.

I agree with you that this is not an overnight process. It is something that happens so gradually that it is almost always imperceptible until it has become a serious problem.

It's just like a lamb wandering away from its shepherd. It doesn't get lost quickly, but one step at a time it slowly wanders away from the flock...

 

[aggie03]

How the heck did this thread get resurected from 2005?

The good ones always come back to life

 

[IamRedeemed]

Excellent point.

I agree with you that this is not an overnight process. It is something that happens so gradually that it is almost always imperceptible until it has become a serious problem.

It's just like a lamb wandering away from its shepherd. It doesn't get lost quickly, but one step at a time it slowly wanders away from the flock...

Amen! That is a good analogy!

The good ones always come back to life

LOL! Amen again! Took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[DArceri]

And I would just like to add a comment and few more Scriptures for the OP to consider.

I'm not the OP, however I thought I'd humbly respond with a few 'scriptural' thoughts:

No one "loses" their salvation like a set of car keys. It doesn't happen overnight. But we certainly don't want to die in a prodigal state. The Scripture is clear that one most certainly can forsake the way and forfeit their inheritance.

Not if you are one of His 'lost sheep'. Jesus states He came for His lost sheep and He loses none of them that the Father has given Him.

"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

Jude 1:3-6
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

I don't see anything here that suggest one will lose his salvation. All that is stated is a warning against decievers of the faith who may make one, at best, stumble. If one is truly CALLED, he is then KEPT.

Notice verses 1 and 2, the verses ahead of the ones you quoted:
1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
2May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, ifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

The key words here are:
"lest there be any of you an evil heart of unbelief"....

Again, there is nothing here that would suggest a loss of salvation. Here it is just stating that those who have an 'evil heart of unbelief' are ungenuine believers (ie. false christians)......Just professing that you are a christian is not going to fool God. Remember, there are those who do good works 'just to be seen' or for other selfish reasons or motives. God sees right through all that:

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Again, nothing here...... Hebrews was written to JEWISH believers who were still following Jewish rituals and tradition. By continuing in their Jewish rituals and traditions, they were commiting a serious sin. Everytime they practiced animal sacrifices and other sacrificial rituals, they were saying in effect, Jesus death on the cross was not enough. Paul is reminding them about the 'blood of the cross' and to stop there old rituals before their hearts are hardened.

.... BOTTOM LINE, those who turned away from there old Jewish rituals were the genuine christian believers, and those who fell away never really fully accepted the CROSS, ie. NO FAITH in the fullness of the Cross to begin with.

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

Again...same as previous response above....Verse proves nothing.

 

[DArceri]

How can we know the spirit of another man? They must tell us. If someone claims to believe in God, and, then, later leaves, they have fallen away. It's really quite simple.

Are you suggesting just because one 'professes' to be a believer, that makes him one?

 

[ReformedChapin]

great posts darceri