Can you be good without God?

[SteveB28]

?? I included a reference to what I called a "God connection." You responded by calling such a thing "magic." The two are entirely different concepts.

Magic, supernatural, not real....take your pick.

 

[Eudaimonist]

First, you chose a strange forum to continue to disparage
God or belief in him.

That's not what I'm doing. I realize that it might seem that way. I'm making a philosophical point here, not trying to disparage anything. You may replace the word "magic" with the word "supernatural" if you like, but it is all the same thing to me.

Second, when you can prove yourself to be God, then
you may safely say there is no other. Until then...

I'm not saying that. I'm asking how I can logically exclude a supernatural (or magical) influence when explaining someone's goodness.

Let me give a parallel example. Let's say that I'm drinking my morning coffee (which I am), and I lift my cup to my face to take a drink of that sweet, sweet wake-up juice. A friend remarks that I must be a Jedi using the magical/supernatural powers of the Force to accomplish this task. I say that I clearly had simply used my hand to accomplish the task of lifting the cup. "Ah," he replies, "but you haven't excluded the possibility that you are using telekinesis and simply moving your hand very, very close to the cup, without actually physically touching and lifting it". He smiles in victory.

What am I supposed to say to my friend? Anyone can offer a magical explanation for something that might as well happen for natural reasons. How can I possibly exclude such things from (baseless and unfalsifiable) consideration?

Do you see that I'm making a philosophical point?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

We're talking hypothetically here.

So is your point: If - hypothetically - there were a God, and if - hypothetically - this God were the most knowledgeable being, and if - hypothetically - this God would be able and willing to communicate his knowledge to us, it would be a good idea to ask him all our knowledge questions?
I agree with that.

 

[quatona]

Obviously God would know even better than the doctor about your illness, but God doesn't heal everyone. The point of the analogy is about who to trust for your information.

Yes, that´s how I understood the question and that´s how I meant my question.

You're saying that the Supreme Being, someone outside of time and space, who created all that there is, etc., doesn't know what he's talking about regarding good and evil, and that we should trust lesser beings rather than him. I'd like to know why.

Could you please find the quote where I said that? Because I don´t recall saying anything like that.

 

[The Cadet]

Someone slightly off from perfect is no different than a mass murderer... both are bound for hell.

What a completely absurd system. What kind of moral monster would design such a thing?

 

[Landon Caeli]

No it doesn't!

Of course it does. For instance, if you witness the mafia throwing someone in the trunk of their car, and they know your family, and threaten you to keep quiet, then I don't think it's a sin to keep quiet.

 

[SteveB28]

Of course it does. For instance, if you witness the mafia throwing someone in the trunk of their car, and they know your family, and threaten you to keep quiet, then I don't think it's a sin to keep quiet.

That wasn't the example being cited. It was the case of standing idly by while someone was being raped!

 

[Landon Caeli]

What a completely absurd system. What kind of moral monster would design such a thing?

To someone who sees the world and this life as all that there is and ever will be, I can understand this POV.

 

[Landon Caeli]

That wasn't the example being cited. It was the case of standing idly by while someone was being raped!

That's why my point is that 'intentions' matter. We cannot know *why* someone would choose to remain idle while a rape occurs. Until we know, we cannot judge.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Assume you do not have access to those reasons.

If you knew that I had seen a child being raped, and had the ability to interfere, yet I simply stood by, allowed it to happen, and said nothing to anyone about it, would you categorize this as "good" or "evil"?

Without access to those reasons, then it would remain unknowable.

...But there are some who believe that a time will come where all things will become known, at which time a final judgement will take place

 

[SteveB28]

That's why my point is that 'intentions' matter. We cannot know *why* someone would choose to remain idle while a rape occurs. Until we know, we cannot judge.

Of course we can! If a child is being raped and you have the ability to intervene, why would you not? And if you did intervene, would you not be more highly thought of than if you did nothing?

 

[SteveB28]

Without access to thise reasons, then it would remain unknowable.

...But there are some who believe that a time will come where all things will become known, at which time a final judgement will take place

Oh what cowardly nonsense!

 

[Albion]

Magic, supernatural, not real....take your pick.

I've picked supernatural. Who among us is unafraid to discuss that possibility ALONG WITH purely natural explanations?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Of course we can! If a child is being raped and you have the ability to intervene, why would you not? And if you did intervene, would you not be more highly thought of than if you did nothing?

What about culpability? Is it evil even for those with mental deficiencies? Things aren't quite so black and white.

 

[Landon Caeli]

"Invincible ignorance" is a term we teach in Catholicism.

 

[SteveB28]

What about culpability? Is it evil even for those with mental deficiencies? Things aren't quite so black and white.

Oh for......

We were talking about THE PERSON WHO STANDS IDLY BY when they HAD THE ABILITY TO INTERVENE!

Why are you so desperate to avoid the question? Could it be because the answer is so obvious?

 

[The Cadet]

To someone who sees the world and this life as all that there is and ever will be, I can understand this POV.

So from what perspective is it not a horribly immoral system?

I've picked supernatural. Who among us is unafraid to discuss that possibility ALONG WITH purely natural explanations?

I will, as soon as it's clearly and coherently defined and we're given a good way to distinguish the supernatural from the natural. This has, in my experience, been the constant stumbling block.

 

[Albion]

I will, as soon as it's clearly and coherently defined and we're given a good way to distinguish the supernatural from the natural. This has, in my experience, been the constant stumbling block.

Now we have one who's tentatively on board with the discussion.

 

[The Cadet]

Oh for......

We were talking about THE PERSON WHO STANDS IDLY BY when they HAD THE ABILITY TO INTERVENE!

Why are you so desperate to avoid the question? Could it be because the answer is so obvious?

 

[The Cadet]

Now we have one who's tentatively on board with the discussion.

Great. So how do you define the supernatural? And how do we go about distinguishing a supernatural cause from a natural one?