Can you be good without God?

[quatona]

What if he helps her across the street in order to make his accomplice have an easier time in stealing her purse? She still wanted to cross the street, and the person assisting her to do that nevertheless accomplished the task that you call good in itself without any qualifications.

And this has to do what with their religious affiliation or lack thereof?

 

[Albion]

And this has to do what with their religious affiliation or lack thereof?

Nothing, but it does bear upon the idea that an action may be either good or evil depending upon the orientation of a god towards it. That was a point that another poster whom I exchanged a few messages with refused to entertain, even in theory. The old lady story gives us another chance to say, "Can't there be other factors at work (in addition to the performance of the act itself) which go into deciding if it's good or not?"

 

[SepiaAndDust]

There is a difference between good and perfect. The question isn't about "good enough to meet God's requirements." It is simply "good."

That's irrelevant from the mainstream Christian perspective. Someone slightly off from perfect is no different than a mass murderer... both are bound for hell. So there is no good, not among people at any rate. Therefore, the question is pointless.

Might I ask you to use the quote feature, Tink?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Might I ask you to use the quote feature, Tink?

Sorry. I usually do.

 

[quatona]

Nothing

Ok, fair enough.

 

[fat wee robin]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

I think you are wasting your time and inner knowledge, on this forum as most are
atheists and therefore the bible tells us some cannnot or will not hear or see , so why waste your time ? You might ask why they come here instead of, to the atheists
forums .

 

[pat34lee]

That what speaking of a "God connection" amounts to. How can anyone "logically exclude" such a thing? Where would one begin?

First, you chose a strange forum to continue to disparage
God or belief in him.
Second, when you can prove yourself to be God, then
you may safely say there is no other. Until then...

 

[quatona]

I think you are wasting your time and inner knowledge, on this forum as most are
atheists and therefore the bible tells us some cannnot or will not hear or see , so why waste your time ? You might ask why they come here instead of, to the atheists
forums .

Yeah, I agree: preaching to the choir is probably more (and more instantly) gratifying than trying to actually substantiate your claims to people who don´t believe like you do.

 

[Locutus]

What if he helps her across the street in order to make his accomplice have an easier time in stealing her purse? She still wanted to cross the street, and the person assisting her to do that nevertheless accomplished the task that you call good in itself without any qualifications.

What if he just helps her across the street. Because he's kind and generous and patient.

This concept (that we can't be good without god) is one of the silliest thing I've ever heard from theists, and I've heard it from many. If there was even a nanoparticle of truth to it, we'd see a some difference in behaviour between believers and non-believers. In the theist's favour. That we see none - and worse, sometimes the opposite - says it all.

And to those who would say that we don't see a difference because we're all 'fallen sinners', I say well what in heck is the point of any of it then? If it's not going to make you a better person, then it must be all about that golden ticket. A thing often denied by believers.

 

[Locutus]

First, you chose a strange forum to continue to disparage
God or belief in him.
...

Do you feel he/she ought to 'disparage god' in a forum full of non-believers?

 

[pat34lee]

Do you feel he/she ought to 'disparage god' in a forum full of non-believers?

He would have a better chance of finding
like minds in an anti-Christian forum.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I know non Christians that are clearly more good than some professed Christians.

Whether or not those professed Christians are really Christians at all is something God will have to decide, so my observation doesn't mean much at this point.

 

[Achilles6129]

Well, the more interesting/relevant/analogous question: If you are sick, do you go to see the doctor or do you go to see God?

Obviously God would know even better than the doctor about your illness, but God doesn't heal everyone. The point of the analogy is about who to trust for your information. You're saying that the Supreme Being, someone outside of time and space, who created all that there is, etc., doesn't know what he's talking about regarding good and evil, and that we should trust lesser beings rather than him. I'd like to know why.

 

[Belk]

Obviously God would know even better than the doctor about your illness, but God doesn't heal everyone. The point of the analogy is about who to trust for your information. You're saying that the Supreme Being, someone outside of time and space, who created all that there is, etc., doesn't know what he's talking about regarding good and evil, and that we should trust lesser beings rather than him. I'd like to know why.

Because we do not believe humans are communicating with such a being.

 

[Achilles6129]

Because we do not believe humans are communicating with such a being.

We're talking hypothetically here. I know you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, so suppose such a being could communicate.

 

[Albion]

What if he just helps her across the street. Because he's kind and generous and patient.

This concept (that we can't be good without god) is one of the silliest thing I've ever heard from theists, and I've heard it from many.

Well, if you want to discuss these things, you have to be prepared to contemplate a range of ideas about them. No one doing a serious inquiry investigates any question by saying that he knows the answer in advance because it's what he prefers to believe about it and intends to hear no other slants on the subject.

My point is not that you or anyone else must believe in a God but, rather, that the possibility of there being one needs to be taken under consideration if there is to be an answer to the question we started with. To you, all of that is "silly," but then no discussion involving you is possible.

 

[Belk]

We're talking hypothetically here. I know you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, so suppose such a being could communicate.

Fair enough. Hypothetically speaking such a being would know a vast amount more then I would. That such a being was more knowledgeable and powerful would then run straight into the axiom of power and knowledge (which should be synonyms IMHO) corrupting. It is entirely possible for such a being to be twisted and corrupted such as the bible portrays the devil. How would we finite beings know the truth of good versus evil in such a situation?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I think you are wasting your time and inner knowledge, on this forum as most are
atheists and therefore the bible tells us some cannnot or will not hear or see , so why waste your time ? You might ask why they come here instead of, to the atheists
forums .

That's interesting. Why would a benevolent God make people who are beyond redemption and cannot "hear or see" something so important as the existence of the only thing that could save them from eternal pain and suffering?

How do you reconcile that with a perfectly benevolent being?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Obviously God would know even better than the doctor about your illness, but God doesn't heal everyone. The point of the analogy is about who to trust for your information. You're saying that the Supreme Being, someone outside of time and space, who created all that there is, etc., doesn't know what he's talking about regarding good and evil, and that we should trust lesser beings rather than him. I'd like to know why.

Because those lesser beings, while not perfect by any stretch, have at the very least shown themselves to be real.

 

[SteveB28]

That depends on the reason as to why you choose to make your decisions.

No it doesn't!