Can you be good without God?

Freodin said:

I'd like to repeat this question, as all you do is tell us negatives.

So, with God, good is something other than an opinion. And it has "cosmic meaning".

Well, what is "good" then, if it isn't an opinion? What is the "cosmic meaning" of "good"?

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Ever read Pilate's questions to Yeshua, Jesus?
Your question is nearly identical.

Achilles6129 said:

We're back to where we started.

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Yeah, but could you possibly answer my questions first?

How can you be "good" without the definition of good?

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Then define it.
It appears as though your definition of "good" is "whatever the creator intended".
This is not only an arbitrary definition, it is also as good or bad as any, and on top (even if we´d accept it for the sake of the argument) it leaves us with a bunch of epistemological problems (so far we haven´t even established that or which God exists, and we haven´t established an epistemology for determining what this God´s purpose is, and so on and so forth).

If God doesn't exist, then where does "goodness" come from?

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Probably where everything "comes from" - I have no idea where everything "comes from" nor whether the question "Where does it come from?" is even a meaningful question (seeing how it necessarily leads to an infinite regress).

And, of course, if God doesn't exist, then ultimately it's just your opinion as to what's good and what isn't.

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It´s my (or your) opinion regardless whether a God exists or not. If a God exists, we have just have a divine opinion, besides our human opinions.
And frankly, when it comes to matters of humans interacting with each other I care about human opinions way more than about a potential creator´s opinion. I don´t know his motives, I don´t know his purposes. They could be good, they could be evil, or anything in between. And, of course, the potential creator´s opinion or purpose isn´t by any stretch of the word "objective". It´s the creator´s subjective opinion or purpose.

And your opinion is cosmically irrelevant, as is everyone else's.

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When you asked about persons being "good", you didn´t notify me that you were thinking of "cosmic" dimensions.
If there´s no God, there´s no God given purpose. I´ll give you that - but that´s as trivial as it is almost tautological.

So ultimately it makes absolutely no difference what you do or don't do.

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"Ultimately" - again, you didn´t notify me that you meant to deal in such categories. Anyway, "ultimate" is depending on the scenario, and in the absence of a God "ultimately" can´t mean "by God´s standards".

Right, but it's the opinion of someone who is in a position to know much more than anyone else (you [and others] keep ignoring this fact). Just like a car mechanic's opinion about your car is "just an opinion" - but it's an opinion you would obviously value over say, the opinion of a cashier at Kroger.

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Depends on what this opinion is about. If it´s about car related facts, then yes. If it´s about moral questions, values etc. then no.

Then it ultimately has no meaning whatsoever.

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Again, if you meant to ask about "ultimately", you should have said so upfront, along with defining your personal understanding of what´s "ultimate".
However, you asked about plain "good" - not "ultimate good" (however you may define this term in order to make your standard appear "ultimate").
I answered accordingly, and, frankly, I do not care on bit about supposedly "ultimate standards" of a potentially existing God. Morality, in my understanding, is meant to improve the interaction among humans - and a God´s opinion is as irrelevant as it gets, in this field.
So let´s assume, for argument´s sake, assume that there is a God who approves of rape, genocide and the deliberate killing of people. In your argument, this would be "ultimately good" - because it would serve whatever purpose this God had in mind for his creation. Whereas I say: "Why care about this 'ultimate good'?".

Achilles6129 said:

Ah. So then there really is no way to tell the difference between good and evil, correct?

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Noooooo. Like I've said, intersubjectivity means an agreement on subjective definitions. So of course there's a way to tell the difference between agreed upon things.

ToddNotTodd said:

Your insults, like your fear mongering, have no effect on non believers. A fact you seem unable to comprehend. What I comprehend is that all you're providing is empty rhetoric, devoid of any reasoning.

Have you taken any Philosophy at all?

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Again, you imagine I am trying to convince you. I'm not. I'm just telling you the truth and you are fighting against the truth.

God's word says that you will consider truth to be foolish in your ears.

When or if God opens your ears and gives sight to your blind eyes you will repent and be aghast at your lack of reason. Until then, you will continue to imagine that you are in control.

bhsmte said:

Just his defense mechanisms. He has to paint other people who disagree with gloom and doom, to feel better about his beliefs.

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Nope. I have to share God's word. Whether you respond in repentance is out of my control.

Achilles6129 said:

Ah, but no. You said "you can measure good/evil by any standard you wish." In that case, you're just arbitrarily defining good and evil based on your own opinions. How do you know your opinion is right? What makes your opinion more valid than someone else's?

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That's how morality works, all moral systems are this way. They may be based on some proven evidence but in the end none of the moral conclusions themselves are anything but opinions. That's just how it is. There is no one who isn't simply picking what they personally think is the best thing to do, it is simply your opinion that your gods opinions are the best things to do. Or that his authority makes his statements also true (that's not logical) and it's also psychopathic.

We aren't trying to show that our moral system can be proven to be best, we are trying to tell you that none of them can be proven as the best, you yourself are merely choosing the one that seems best to you. The god you think exists is just using its own opinions too.

MennoSota said:

Nope. I have to share God's word. Whether you respond in repentance is out of my control.

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Do you talk to people like this in real life? This sort of method prevents people from ever taking you seriously. Acting like evidence and reason do not apply to your authority only makes people ignore you. You're not being a very good ambassador for your god. You're really convincing everyone to not listen to anything you have to say.

DeanW said:

Do you talk to people like this in real life? This sort of method prevents people from ever taking you seriously. Acting like evidence and reason do not apply to your authority only makes people ignore you. You're not being a very good ambassador for your god. You're really convincing everyone to not listen to anything you have to say.

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It's not my authority. It's God's word, the Bible. It's right in front of you and you don't see it.

MennoSota said:

Nope. I have to share God's word. Whether you respond in repentance is out of my control.

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You have failed to demonstrate that what you state is God's word.

That's ok, you can believe it.

DeanW said:

The authority of that book is what I was referring to you. Not your authority, obviously you have no authority.

Why do you keep repeating to us that your book has some authority, it doesn't. No one here believes your book has any authority, that makes absolutely no sense. It's truly the most obnoxious unreasonable silly thing we ever hear and you're saying it over and over. You're like the bible says, you're becoming like loud sounding brass that no one is willing to listen to. I really think you're just posting to make yourself feel good. You can't possible think you're accomplishing anything. You're making a mockery of everything you believe in.

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I tell you the truth. God's word, the Bible, is authoritative and you are subject under God's authority. We all are and we always will be.

It is human nature to fight against God's authority and attempt to rule. It is the same thing that Satan attempted. He was cast down and so will you be cast down. Better for you if it's sooner than later.

The freedom of Christianity is in being a bond servant of Messiah, Yeshua, Jesus.
Better is one day in God's court than thousands elsewhere.

MennoSota said:

I tell you the truth. God's word, the Bible, is authoritative and you are subject under God's authority. We all are and we always will be.

It is human nature to fight against God's authority and attempt to rule. It is the same thing that Satan attempted. He was cast down and so will you be cast down. Better for you if it's sooner than later.

The freedom of Christianity is in being a bond servant of Messiah, Yeshua, Jesus.
Better is one day in God's court than thousands elsewhere.

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You have yet to demonstrate you have truth.

bhsmte said:

You have failed to demonstrate that what you state is God's word.

That's ok, you can believe it.

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LOL, I expect no other thought from you on this subject. When God opens your eyes and makes your deaf ears hear, you will think otherwise.

bhsmte said:

You have yet to demonstrate you have truth.

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It's not for me to demonstrate. That's God's choice as to whether you'll ever understand.

MennoSota said:

It's not for me to demonstrate. That's God's choice as to whether you'll ever understand.

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If you say you speak the truth, the burden of proof is on you.

MennoSota said:

LOL, I expect no other thought from you on this subject. When God opens your eyes and makes your deaf ears hear, you will think otherwise.

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More empty rhetoric.

MennoSota said:

LOL, I expect no other thought from you on this subject. When God opens your eyes and makes your deaf ears hear, you will think otherwise.

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Do you mind posting a picture of yourself and your room for us to see?

MennoSota said:

It's not for me to demonstrate. That's God's choice as to whether you'll ever understand.

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If you did actually have a way to way to present your faith reasonably and cause us to actually listen to you and consider you, would you?

I seriously think you want to be rejected because it makes you feel like some voice alone in the wilderness, it makes you feel special and mystical. That's why you try to speak in Latin and use pictures of strange old men. I think you want to us to reject you because it makes you feel special and unknown. If people actually listened to anything you say and you were understood... you'd be normal and that's not fun anymore.

DeanW said:

Do you mind posting a picture of yourself and your room for us to see?

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Yes, I mind. I don't trust your depravity to send Stalin types and other Atheist haters my way. Afterall, more people have been murdered by atheists than any other group in the history of humankind. [emoji63]

DeanW said:

If you did actually have a way to way to present your faith reasonably and cause us to actually listen to you and consider you, would you?

I seriously think you want to be rejected because it makes you feel like some voice alone in the wilderness, it makes you feel special and mystical. That's why you try to speak in Latin and use pictures of strange old men. I think you want to us to reject you because it makes you feel special and unknown. If people actually listened to anything you say and you were understood... you'd be normal and that's not fun anymore.

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You wouldn't listen in any case. Your ears are deaf and your eyes are blind. It takes God miraculously and graciously healing you. I just speak truth and let God change you. I'm not going to go about trying to manipulate you into an emotional reaction. Just the truth, whether you like it or not.