Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[olgamc]

Who ever said that historic accuracy was the focus of Genesis chapter 1?

I think historic accuracy is the focus of the entire book of Genesis. Starting with chapter 1 - creation of heaven and earth. What do you think is the focus of genesis chapter 1?

The context is what it is. Genesis blatantly describes ancient near east cosmology. The waters above. The windows in the sky opening and closing. The revealing of the primordial mound. Earth starting out formless and void, god resting on the 7th day. The firmament separating waters from waters. The contrast between heaven and earth. Having light created before the sun. Having the wind hovering over the face of the deep.

These are all concepts, among many many more, observed in ancient near east texts of surrounding nations. And their writings and artwork of cosmology all universally depict an ancient perspective.

Genesis is not cosmologically unique. And Genesis describes the same concepts as other old testament books as well. So it's not even that strange that Genesis would say what other old testament texts also say. That's the old testament in its context.

Ok, so basically I think what you are saying is this. Genesis is not God's telling of creation. Genesis is Moses's telling of near-east cosmololgy. In near-east cosmology mankind was not created from one man. Therefore Genesis could not possibly say that mankind was created from one man.

Is that what it's all about?

 

[Job 33:6]

Just circling back to this. I started looking up these verses. Here's what I found:

Genesis 5:1 - repeats Genesis 1:27 and mentions Adam as part of the same story
Genesis 6:9 - is the teledoth. Then Genesis 6:11-12 repeats Genesis 6:5-6, so it is reasonable to assume that Genesis 6:13 repeats Genesis 6:7 and adds a detail - Noah.
Genesis 10:1 - I did not find a repetition there
Genesis 11:10 - starts the story with a time "two years after the flood". But Genesis 10 just told us about the generations from Shem, Ham and Japheth to Canaanites and Semites and finished with "from these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.". Then we had Genesis 11:1-9 that talked about Babel. And now in Genesis 11:10 we are back to only two years after the flood. Not only does it jump back in time, but it repeats Genesis 10:21-25, and both adds and eliminates details.
Genesis 11:27 - I did not notice a repetition
Genesis 25:12 - I did not see a repetition, but Ishmael dies at 137 years old and then
Genesis 25:19 - goes back to Isaac being 40 years old, which chronologically overlaps with Ishmael from the previous section

So out of 7 verses that I looked at, 4 either repeat or go back in time with more details or a parallel narrative after a teledoth.

I'm ok with them being interpreted as overlapping. I would think of it more as a day 8 sequel than a day 6 retelling and sequel however. I mean, in day 6, God hadn't even taken up the throne yet. So why would he be in the garden?

So God destroyed the world twice? First after nephilim and then with the flood?

‭‭Genesis 6:7 ESV‬‬
[7] So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

It's just God saying that he will respond. And then as a sequel, later on God brings the flood.

You read the story as a regular narrative in order.

 

[truthpls]

You should check out the book of the giants, the book of Enoch, and lookup "reversing hermon" for the Genesis 6 narrative. It's absolutely not retelling a story here. There's a ton of literature going back in history on this one. And it's 110% sequel.

The book of Enoch is of unknown origin and basically a book of fables. A giant thousands of feet high, or even 450 feet high?? Just because one snippet that the book of Enoch used was good (the one Jude quoted) does not mean the rest of the compilation is good.

 

[Job 33:6]

Just circling back to this. I started looking up these verses. Here's what I found:

The difficulty tht I'm trying to point out is that many in the church think that chapter 2 is retelling day 6. So for example, chapter 2 ends with eves creation. So people try to confine the entire chapter 2 narrative to day 6.

But as we've seen. That never happens with any of the teledoths noted. Maybe you'll find 1 passing verse, but these narratives are completely different before and after the teledoths.

And that's what I'm pointing out.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think historic accuracy is the focus of the entire book of Genesis. Starting with chapter 1 - creation of heaven and earth. What do you think is the focus of genesis chapter 1?

I think that chapter 1 is an inauguration text. It's a text describing God coming into communion with people. I wouldn't consider it cosmologically or scientifically accurate because it was written long ago before there ever was science.

Ok, so basically I think what you are saying is this. Genesis is not God's telling of creation.

It's Moses telling the story of God's creation from his perspective. Just like every other book in the Bible, it references an ancient cosmology because that's what the authors perceived at the time.

Genesis is Moses's telling of near-east cosmology.

Yes. Well that's a part of the text. But more importantly it's Moses talking about God coming to reside with mankind.

In near-east cosmology mankind was not created from one man. Therefore Genesis could not possibly say that mankind was created from one man.

In ancient Near East literature, people are made in populations, similar to how it's described in Genesis chapter 1. And the other cosmology related concepts around that are identical from a scientific perspective.

Is that what it's all about?

To understand Genesis I, I would recommend doing a review of God's rest in the Bible.

‭‭Psalms 132:7-8 NIV‬‬
[7] “Let us go to his dwelling place, let us worship at his footstool, saying, [8] ‘Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.
[13] For the Lord has chosen Zion, he has desired it for his dwelling, saying, [14] “This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.

When God rests, He rests enthroned, forever, in His temple.

‭‭Isaiah 66:1-2 NIV‬‬
[1] This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? [2] Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the Lord.

His resting place is his House. In Hebrew that's His temple. Heaven is his throne, earth his footstool. A description of the temple throne room where He rules.

The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; His eyes see, His eyelids test the sons of mankind.
Psalms 11:4

Now then arise, Lord God, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your might; let Your priests, Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let Your godly ones rejoice in what is good.
2 Chronicles 6:41

 

[Job 33:6]

I think that chapter 1 is an inauguration text. It's a text describing God coming into communion with people. I wouldn't consider it cosmologically or scientifically accurate because it was written long ago before there ever was science.




It's Moses telling the story of God's creation from his perspective. Just like every other book in the Bible, it references an ancient cosmology because that's what the authors perceived at the time.


Yes. Well that's a part of the text. But more importantly it's Moses talking about God coming to reside with mankind.


In ancient Near East literature, people are made in populations, similar to how it's described in Genesis chapter 1. And the other cosmology related concepts around that are identical from a scientific perspective.

To understand Genesis I, I would recommend doing a review of God's rest in the Bible.

‭‭Psalms 132:7-8 NIV‬‬
[7] “Let us go to his dwelling place, let us worship at his footstool, saying, [8] ‘Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.
[13] For the Lord has chosen Zion, he has desired it for his dwelling, saying, [14] “This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.

When God rests, He rests enthroned, forever, in His temple.

‭‭Isaiah 66:1-2 NIV‬‬
[1] This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? [2] Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the Lord.

His resting place is his House. In Hebrew that's His temple. Heaven is his throne, earth his footstool. A description of the temple throne room where He rules.

The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; His eyes see, His eyelids test the sons of mankind.
Psalms 11:4

Now then arise, Lord God, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your might; let Your priests, Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let Your godly ones rejoice in what is good.
2 Chronicles 6:41

Once we recognize that when God rests on the 7th day, it's marking the beginning of His rule.

‭‭Genesis 2:1-3 NIV‬‬
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. [2] By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. [3] Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Notice that in the finale, there is tripartite reference. The seventh day, the seventh day, the seventh day! 3x. This is an important Grand Finale to the creation narrative.

Genesis 1 is written with a lot of repetition. It would have been easier for ancient near east people to memorize and recite during celebrations.

 

[Job 33:6]

Once we recognize that when God rests on the 7th day, it's marking the beginning of His rule.

‭‭Genesis 2:1-3 NIV‬‬
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. [2] By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. [3] Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Notice that in the finale, there is tripartite expiration. The seventh day, the seventh day, the seventh day!

Genesis 1 is written with a lot of repetition. It would have been easier for ancient near east people to memorize and recite during celebrations.

And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month. ‭

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65

Temple inauguration feast 7 days.

‭‭2 Chronicles 7:8 NIV‬‬
[8] So Solomon observed the festival at that time for seven days, and all Israel with him—a vast assembly, people from Lebo Hamath to the Wadi of Egypt.
Temple inauguration, 7-days.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13

1 Kings 8:2 .

‭‭2 Chronicles 7:1 NIV‬‬
[1] When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
[5] And King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand head of cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the people dedicated the temple of God.
[8] So Solomon observed the festival at that time for seven days, and all Israel with him—a vast assembly, people from Lebo Hamath to the Wadi of Egypt.

‭
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built!
Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King‬ ‭8:27‬

As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Ezekiel 43:4‭-
‬7

God rests.

In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33

Both Solomons temple and the tabernacle are inaugurated in 7 days. A celebration in which God comes into communion with humanity. 7 days.

 

[Job 33:6]

And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month. ‭

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65

Temple inauguration feast 7 days.

‭‭2 Chronicles 7:8 NIV‬‬
[8] So Solomon observed the festival at that time for seven days, and all Israel with him—a vast assembly, people from Lebo Hamath to the Wadi of Egypt.
Temple inauguration, 7-days.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13

1 Kings 8:2 .

‭‭2 Chronicles 7:1 NIV‬‬
[1] When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
[5] And King Solomon offered a sacrifice of twenty-two thousand head of cattle and a hundred and twenty thousand sheep and goats. So the king and all the people dedicated the temple of God.
[8] So Solomon observed the festival at that time for seven days, and all Israel with him—a vast assembly, people from Lebo Hamath to the Wadi of Egypt.

‭
“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built!
Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King‬ ‭8:27‬

As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Ezekiel 43:4‭-
‬7

God rests.

In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33

Both Solomons temple and the tabernacle are inaugurated in 7 days. A celebration in which God comes into communion with humanity. 7 days.

And Adam and Eve are the priests of God's temple. Adam and Eve are given instructions to work and keep the garden, holy space, as priests are to work and keep the temple in liviticus. With many parallels between Eden and temples given throughout the Bible.

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” God saw everything that he had made and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43

The Hebrew word ‘abad (עבד) can be translated as “to work,” “to serve,” or “to worship.” It is a common verb and is often used for cultivating the soil (Genesis 2:5, 3:23, 4:2,12). However, the word is also commonly used in a religious sense of serving God (Deuteronomy 4:19) and in priestly texts, especially regarding the tabernacle duties of the Levites (Numbers 3:7-8, 4:23-24, 4:26).

The second Hebrew word, translated as “to keep,” is shamar (שמר), which is commonly used for a priestly service of worship, as well as in legal texts of observing religious commands and duties (Leviticus 18:5). The word is also used for the Levitical responsibility of guarding the tabernacle from intruders (Numbers 1:53, 3:7-8)

 

[Job 33:6]

I think historic accuracy is the focus of the entire book of Genesis. Starting with chapter 1 - creation of heaven and earth. What do you think is the focus of genesis chapter 1?

Ok, so basically I think what you are saying is this. Genesis is not God's telling of creation. Genesis is Moses's telling of near-east cosmololgy. In near-east cosmology mankind was not created from one man. Therefore Genesis could not possibly say that mankind was created from one man.

Is that what it's all about?

‭‭Exodus 29:37 NIV‬‬
[37] For seven days make atonement for the altar and consecrate it. Then the altar will be most holy, and whatever touches it will be holy.

I've quoted a lot of passages above. And there are a lot more. God also has a divine entourage or assembly, His divine council, that resides in His temple.

‭‭1 Kings 22:19-23 NIV‬‬
[19] Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. [20] And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. [21] Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ [22] “ ‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “ ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “ ‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’ [23] “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

Job chapter 1 and chapter 2 describe the Satan among the assembly.

Isaiah 6 describes it. Psalm 82 and 89. Etc.

So God is in His temple. Adam and Eve are his priests. And he has a divine assembly with him. And Satan, The evil one, is essentially a serpentine divine throne guardian. A rebellious member of God's entourage.

But back to Genesis. It's God inaugurating His temple. And talking up the throne to begin ruling and communing with man.

And it's just written by Moses who happens to hold a ancient Near East cosmological perspective of a flat earth. So that perspective sort of backgrounds the broader narrative of creation.

The above video is a must see, if you haven't already.

 

[Job 33:6]

False

Nothing about a flat earth there

The circle on the face of the deep is the horizon of the flat earth.

No matter where the circle of the earth is, God is above it. The heavens are stretched out as well. Not sure why you post this

A circle is a circle. It's flat. Quit making excuses.

A prophesy. Not sure what you thought it meant.

A prophecy speaking of the foundation holding up the earth

Prophesy about the time when the earth shakes. God will ensure the planet holds together, because He is returning to rule here

Yea, the earth shakes overtop columns and pillars. Stop ignoring the text.

The earth has pillars and a foundation. Probably not the kind you have in mind.

Earth doesn't rest on pillars. Sorry if you're confused about this.

A dream

It's still a flat earth, regardless of if it's a dream or not.

The 'it' referred to here is the morning. That does not help your flat earth claims

It's describing earth, pressed out flat like clay under a seal, grabbed by its edges and shaken like a garment or blanket.

It did...so?

From earth perspective the sun rises and sets. Strange how you jump from claiming man pre existed Adam to misrepresenting Scriptures on other topics here. There should be a trophy for that

Lol I'm sorry id you're confused about this. Earth doesn't rest on pillars. And yes, it's written from an earthly perspective. One that involves a flat earth and geocentrism.

People didn't know that Earth was round back then which is why the Bible only describes the earth in flat geocentric terms.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ancient near east cosmology also includes an underworld, Sheol.

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NASB

“For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

¶The ropes of death encompassed me, And the torrents of destruction terrified me. The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
Psalms 18:4‭-‬5 NASB

“They spend their days in prosperity, And suddenly they go down to Sheol.
Job 21:13 NASB

“He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the garbage heap To seat them with nobles, And He gives them a seat of honor as an inheritance; For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on them.
1 Samuel 2:8 NASB

¶“The departed spirits are made to tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Job 26:5 NASB

“The pillars of heaven tremble And are amazed at His rebuke.
Job 26:11 NASB

He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Job 26:10

The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me. “Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry.
2 Samuel 22:6‭, ‬8 NASB

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

Yet He commanded the clouds above And opened the doors of heaven;
Psalms 78:23 NASB

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the measuring line over it? “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6 NASB

¶He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not move forever and ever.
Psalms 104:5 NASB

The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap, to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.
1 Samuel 2:6‭, ‬8 NRSV

 

[truthpls]

The difficulty tht I'm trying to point out is that many in the church think that chapter 2 is retelling day 6.

Or, conversely, the difficulty is that you think God was confused and inept and that there were contradictory creation accounts given.

So for example, chapter 2 ends with eves creation.

Or, we might say, the events that already happened that were expanded from chapter 1 end with telling us more about the woman that was created.

So people try to confine the entire chapter 2 narrative to day 6.

Others realize that man, unlike the claims of science about us, is the central aspect of the world and universe. Therefore emphasizing that in chapter 2 is amazingly appropriate

But as we've seen. That never happens with any of the teledoths noted.

In this case it included more than just men, although that was the focus. It included the plants and rain.

Maybe you'll find 1 passing verse, but these narratives are completely different before and after the teledoths.

No. Nothing contradicts at all, it just gives more information about what happened.

 

[truthpls]

The circle on the face of the deep is the horizon of the flat earth.

Try not to make stuff up. To fit it in your desired scheme, you need it to be that. The circle of the earth could be many things.

A circle is a circle. It's flat. Quit making excuses.

Say what? I thought a circle was round?

A prophecy speaking of the foundation holding up the earth

Yea, the earth shakes overtop columns and pillars. Stop ignoring the text.

So something way under the world where no one ever can go is referred to as a foundation and pillars. I understand some people think they can read a lot into that, as it suits their pet theories. To me, it simply indicates that there is something deep under the world that was here first and upon which the rest was built upon.

Earth doesn't rest on pillars. Sorry if you're confused about this.

There you go, trying to make God sound silly again to prop up your belief choices.

It's still a flat earth, regardless of if it's a dream or not.

No, Never saw any such thing in the bible. That is insulting to God and the intelligence of mankind in ancient days.

It's describing earth, pressed out flat like clay under a seal, grabbed by its edges and shaken like a garment or blanket.

No such insane thing actually

 

[Job 33:6]

Try not to make stuff up. To fit it in your desired scheme, you need it to be that. The circle of the earth could be many things.

Say what? I thought a circle was round?

So something way under the world where no one ever can go is referred to as a foundation and pillars. I understand some people think they can read a lot into that, as it suits their pet theories. To me, it simply indicates that there is something deep under the world that was here first and upon which the rest was built upon.

There you go, trying to make God sound silly again to prop up your belief choices.

No, Never saw any such thing in the bible. That is insulting to God and the intelligence of mankind in ancient days.

No such insane thing actually

Seems like you could use a history lesson. People didn't know that earth was a sphere 2500+ years ago.

And it's not an insult to their intelligence. Its just a fact of history. Same with geocentrism.

Many prominent church figures believed in geocentrism, essentially all of them actually, in the first century AD. And going back to the second temple period and prior, people did not know that earth was spherical shaped.

 

[Job 33:6]

Seems like you could use a history lesson. People didn't know that earth was a sphere 2500+ years ago.

And it's not an insult to their intelligence. Its just a fact of history. Same with geocentrism.

Many prominent church figures believed in geocentrism, essentially all of them actually, in the first century AD. And going back to the second temple period and prior, people did not know that earth was spherical shaped.

Before earth was known to be a sphere (though in these years it had begun to be debated), and before anyone knew of heliocentrism, prominent church fathers thought that earth was flat and rested upon water. Here is Holly IX by on of the most influential church fathers of all time, St. John Chrysostom.

Homily IX.


7. But I have yet somewhat more to say on this head. For not only, indeed, does the magnitude and beauty of the creation, but
403
also the very manner of it, display a God who is the artificer of the universe. For since we were not present at the beginning, whilst he was engaged in the work of forming and creating all things; nor had we been present, could we have known how they came into being,1415 the power that disposed them being invisible; He hath made the mode of this creation to become our best teacher, by compounding all things in a manner which transcends the course of nature. Perhaps what I have said, is not sufficiently clear. Therefore it is necessary that I should again repeat it in a clearer manner. All men, then, must admit that it is the course of nature for water to be supported on the earth, and not the earth on the waters. For the earth being a certain dense, hard, unyielding, and solid substance, is easily able to support the nature of water; but the water, which is fluid, and rare, and soft, and diffusive, and giving way to all it meets with, must be unable to support any solid body, though it were of the lightest kind. Often indeed when a small pebble fails upon it, it yields, and makes way, and sends it down to the bottom. When therefore thou beholdest not a small pebble, but the whole earth borne upon the waters, and not submerged, admire the power of Him who wrought these marvellous things in a supernatural manner! And whence does this appear, that the earth is borne upon the waters? The prophet declares this when he says, “He hath founded it upon the seas, and prepared it upon the floods.”1416 And again: “To him who hath founded the earth upon the waters.”1417 What sayest thou? The water is not able to support a small pebble on its surface, and yet bears up the earth, great as it is; and mountains, and hills, and cities, and plants, and men, and brutes; and it is not submerged! What do I say? Is not submerged? How comes it to pass, that since the water has been in close contact with it below, during so long a period, it has not been dissolved, and the whole of it become mud? For the substance of wood, when soaked in water but a little time, is rotted and dissolved; and why do I say of wood? What can be firmer than iron? yet often this is softened, when it remains a long time in water; and well it may. For it derives its substance from the earth. Therefore many run-away servants, when they make their escape, dragging their shackles and chains along with them, go to brooks of water, and thrust their shackled feet therein, and after making the iron softer by this means, they easily break it by striking it with a stone. Iron, forsooth, is softened, and wood is rotted, and stones are worn away by the nature of water; yet so great a mass as the earth hath remained such a length of time lying upon the waters, without being either submerged, or dissolved, and destroyed!1418
8. And who is there that must not feel astonished and amazed at these things; and confidently pronounce that they are not the works of nature, but of that Providence which is above nature? Therefore one speaks thus: “Who hangeth the earth upon nothing.”1419 And another observes, “In His hands are the corners of the earth.”1420 And again: “He hath laid the foundation of it upon the seas.”1421 And these declarations, though they seem contrary to one another, have yet an entire agreement. For he that said, “He hath laid the foundation of it upon the seas,” meant the same thing as he did who declared, “He hath hung it upon nothing.” For its standing upon the waters is just the same thing as hanging upon nothing. Where then is it suspended and placed? Hear the same one saying, “In His hands are the corners of the earth.” Not that God hath hands, but that thou mayest know that His power it is, providing for all things which holds together1422 and supports the body of the earth! But if thou believest not what I now say, believe what thou beholdest! for even in another element it is possible to find this admirable workmanship. For it is the nature of fire to tend upwards,1423 and to be always mounting aloft; and although you force and constrain it never so much, it cannot submit to have its course directed downwards. For often, when we are carrying a lighted torch, although we incline its head downwards, we cannot compel the force of the flame to direct
404itself to the ground; but still it turns upward, and passes from below toward that which is above. But with respect to the sun, God hath made it quite the contrary. For He hath turned his beams toward the earth, and made his light to direct itself downward, all but saying to him by the very shape (of the heavens), “Look downward.—Shine upon men, for thou wert made for them!” The light, indeed, of a candle cannot be made to submit to this; but this star, great and marvellous as it is, bends downward, and looks toward the earth, which is contrary to the nature of fire; owing to the power of Him who hath commanded it. Wouldest thou have me speak of another thing of the like kind? Waters embrace the back of the visible heaven1424 on all parts; and yet they neither flow down, nor are moved out of their place, although the nature of water is not of this kind. For it easily runs together into what is concave; but when the body is of a convex form, it glides away on all sides; and not even a small portion1425 is capable of standing upon such a figure.1426 But, lo! this wonder is found to exist in the heavens; and the prophet, again, to intimate this very circumstance, observes, “Praise the Lord, ye waters that are above the heavens.”1427 Besides, the water hath not quenched the sun; nor hath the sun, which hath gone on his way beneath for so long a time, dried up the water that lies above.

 

[Job 33:6]

Before earth was known to be a sphere (though in these years it had begun to be debated), and before anyone knew of heliocentrism, prominent church fathers thought that earth was flat and rested upon water. Here is Holly IX by on of the most influential church fathers of all time, St. John Chrysostom.

Homily IX.


7. But I have yet somewhat more to say on this head. For not only, indeed, does the magnitude and beauty of the creation, but
403
also the very manner of it, display a God who is the artificer of the universe. For since we were not present at the beginning, whilst he was engaged in the work of forming and creating all things; nor had we been present, could we have known how they came into being,1415 the power that disposed them being invisible; He hath made the mode of this creation to become our best teacher, by compounding all things in a manner which transcends the course of nature. Perhaps what I have said, is not sufficiently clear. Therefore it is necessary that I should again repeat it in a clearer manner. All men, then, must admit that it is the course of nature for water to be supported on the earth, and not the earth on the waters. For the earth being a certain dense, hard, unyielding, and solid substance, is easily able to support the nature of water; but the water, which is fluid, and rare, and soft, and diffusive, and giving way to all it meets with, must be unable to support any solid body, though it were of the lightest kind. Often indeed when a small pebble fails upon it, it yields, and makes way, and sends it down to the bottom. When therefore thou beholdest not a small pebble, but the whole earth borne upon the waters, and not submerged, admire the power of Him who wrought these marvellous things in a supernatural manner! And whence does this appear, that the earth is borne upon the waters? The prophet declares this when he says, “He hath founded it upon the seas, and prepared it upon the floods.”1416 And again: “To him who hath founded the earth upon the waters.”1417 What sayest thou? The water is not able to support a small pebble on its surface, and yet bears up the earth, great as it is; and mountains, and hills, and cities, and plants, and men, and brutes; and it is not submerged! What do I say? Is not submerged? How comes it to pass, that since the water has been in close contact with it below, during so long a period, it has not been dissolved, and the whole of it become mud? For the substance of wood, when soaked in water but a little time, is rotted and dissolved; and why do I say of wood? What can be firmer than iron? yet often this is softened, when it remains a long time in water; and well it may. For it derives its substance from the earth. Therefore many run-away servants, when they make their escape, dragging their shackles and chains along with them, go to brooks of water, and thrust their shackled feet therein, and after making the iron softer by this means, they easily break it by striking it with a stone. Iron, forsooth, is softened, and wood is rotted, and stones are worn away by the nature of water; yet so great a mass as the earth hath remained such a length of time lying upon the waters, without being either submerged, or dissolved, and destroyed!1418
8. And who is there that must not feel astonished and amazed at these things; and confidently pronounce that they are not the works of nature, but of that Providence which is above nature? Therefore one speaks thus: “Who hangeth the earth upon nothing.”1419 And another observes, “In His hands are the corners of the earth.”1420 And again: “He hath laid the foundation of it upon the seas.”1421 And these declarations, though they seem contrary to one another, have yet an entire agreement. For he that said, “He hath laid the foundation of it upon the seas,” meant the same thing as he did who declared, “He hath hung it upon nothing.” For its standing upon the waters is just the same thing as hanging upon nothing. Where then is it suspended and placed? Hear the same one saying, “In His hands are the corners of the earth.” Not that God hath hands, but that thou mayest know that His power it is, providing for all things which holds together1422 and supports the body of the earth! But if thou believest not what I now say, believe what thou beholdest! for even in another element it is possible to find this admirable workmanship. For it is the nature of fire to tend upwards,1423 and to be always mounting aloft; and although you force and constrain it never so much, it cannot submit to have its course directed downwards. For often, when we are carrying a lighted torch, although we incline its head downwards, we cannot compel the force of the flame to direct
404itself to the ground; but still it turns upward, and passes from below toward that which is above. But with respect to the sun, God hath made it quite the contrary. For He hath turned his beams toward the earth, and made his light to direct itself downward, all but saying to him by the very shape (of the heavens), “Look downward.—Shine upon men, for thou wert made for them!” The light, indeed, of a candle cannot be made to submit to this; but this star, great and marvellous as it is, bends downward, and looks toward the earth, which is contrary to the nature of fire; owing to the power of Him who hath commanded it. Wouldest thou have me speak of another thing of the like kind? Waters embrace the back of the visible heaven1424 on all parts; and yet they neither flow down, nor are moved out of their place, although the nature of water is not of this kind. For it easily runs together into what is concave; but when the body is of a convex form, it glides away on all sides; and not even a small portion1425 is capable of standing upon such a figure.1426 But, lo! this wonder is found to exist in the heavens; and the prophet, again, to intimate this very circumstance, observes, “Praise the Lord, ye waters that are above the heavens.”1427 Besides, the water hath not quenched the sun; nor hath the sun, which hath gone on his way beneath for so long a time, dried up the water that lies above.

St Augustine has similar writings, pondering how the planet Saturn might be cooled by the celestial ocean above. While also rejecting the proposal of "antipodes", or people living upside down on the opposite side of the earth, held up by an invisible force not yet discovered.

 

[olgamc]

Ancient near east cosmology also includes an underworld, Sheol.

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NASB

“For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NASB

¶The ropes of death encompassed me, And the torrents of destruction terrified me. The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
Psalms 18:4‭-‬5 NASB

“They spend their days in prosperity, And suddenly they go down to Sheol.
Job 21:13 NASB

“He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the garbage heap To seat them with nobles, And He gives them a seat of honor as an inheritance; For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on them.
1 Samuel 2:8 NASB

¶“The departed spirits are made to tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Job 26:5 NASB

“The pillars of heaven tremble And are amazed at His rebuke.
Job 26:11 NASB

He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Job 26:10

The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me. “Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angry.
2 Samuel 22:6‭, ‬8 NASB

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
Isaiah 14:9 NASB

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for him.
Genesis 37:35 NASB2020

Yet He commanded the clouds above And opened the doors of heaven;
Psalms 78:23 NASB

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the measuring line over it? “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6 NASB

¶He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not move forever and ever.
Psalms 104:5 NASB

The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap, to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.
1 Samuel 2:6‭, ‬8 NRSVView attachment 344502

Job 33:6, first, thank you for posting all the information, you obviously studied this a lot and it's a fascinating topic and I really enjoyed reading all of the verses you quoted. And I am watching the video you sent tonight.

But I wanted to get back to you with this point. All of this has to do with the spiritual world, not with physical. As far as the spiritual world is concerned, we can't know what it actually looks like because we can't see it. So when God gives us a vision of something that can't be seen, of course the visions are not going to be literal. The visions explain concepts. Like, if I was to explain to a small child the solar system, I might make a model out of fruit where Earth is an apricot and Jupiter is a watermelon. I am explaining something that a child cannot see or conceptualize - massive objects in space - through something that a child is familiar with and can clearly picture. But a small child is a small child, and he may think that earth is actually a big apricot. It wouldn't be correct of course, but seeing that he is a very small child and what I am trying to explain is a concept of relative size of planets, and that he gets the concept, I would be ok with him thinking for a time that Earth is an apricot. I know that he'll grow up and know that it's not, but the concept of relative size would stay with him. Right?

So for God, we are small children. He gives us a vision of the spiritual world, and if we mistake it to mean that that's how the real physical world is, He is ok with that. That's why He doesn't correct Job or others - He is not concerned with them understanding science. He knows that humanity will one day send a man to the moon and a robot to Mars. As long as we understand concepts, which Job seems to understand, God is ok with that. But God does give Job a talking starting in chapter 38, like "oh yeah Job, well if you are so smart, if you know things, then tell Me how I laid the foundations of the Earth. He is being sarcastic and rebuking Job because Job was upset that God wouldn't explain Himself to him.

Near-east cosmology, if it really does have so much to do with the Bible, could simply be explained as people being small children and thinking that the world is really an apricot. In other words, it's not that near-east cosmology started first and then Bible borrowed a narrative. Bible was written after near-east cosmology, but the source of the Bible is God the Creator. It wasn't just Job or Moses or David or Samuel or Amos writing books they wanted to write. Every one of Biblical authors was inspired by God and they wrote what God told them to write. They are not authors, they are a pen. God is the author. That is, of course, if we believe that all scripture is divinely inspired. Do you believe that? I do.

So with that, we have near-east cosmology picking up on the same concepts or visions that God had given various people at various times. So of course they are going to be similar visions and ideas. With one big difference - near-east cosmology takes them literally and says this is what the world is really like. Which, of course, we know is not true. And that's how we know it's talking about purely the spiritual world, not the physical. And that's why God is ok with it in the Bible - all or most of the verses you mentioned have to do with the spiritual world where God lives.

Ok, so now back to your fascinating concept about a temple. Yes! God was creating the Earth to be His temple, Eden the Holy of Holies, Adam as His first priest, and humanity as His royal priesthood. Amazing - I never realized that, thank you for pointing it out. It made creation that much more special for me. And when Adam failed and all humanity with him, God provided the High Priest - Himself, and chose (saved) some people to be His royal priesthood.

1 Peter 2:9-12 (NIV)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Hebrews 4:14 NIV
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

Ok! So how does that relate to the discussion at hand? Did Adam evolve or was Adam created separately? In other words, was Adam the first man, or were there men before Adam? So what we discovered so far:
- All people are animals, but not all animals are people.
- All people are made in God's image.
- All other animals are not made in God's image.

Agree?

If Adam was the first man (his name is literally "the first man"), then who was Adam's grandma? She could not have been made in God's image, because Adam was the first person made in God's image. So she was not a person. Agree?

If grandma was not a person, could she have been a homo sapiens? No, because all homo sapiens are people. So she was a different species. Agree?

Speciation, if it happens (which is not a fact), but IF it happens, it takes place over MANY generations. So Adam's grandma could not have been a different species. Agree?

So Adam's grandma was not an image bearer, and she was not a homo sapiens, and she was not another species. Adam's grandma is impossible.

And if there is any doubt left - you just explained that Adam was the first priest of God's temple. God is known for taking firstfruits for Himself. So Adam was the firstfruit of all mankind - Adam was the first man God created and there was no other people created before him.

Agree?

PS. I haven't heard of anyone trying to include all of Genesis 2 into the 6th day. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. With that the work of creating mankind was finished, creation was complete, and God rested. The rest of mankind, including you and me, came after by natural birth, after the fall.

 

[Job 33:6]

Job 33:6, first, thank you for posting all the information, you obviously studied this a lot and it's a fascinating topic and I really enjoyed reading all of the verses you quoted. And I am watching the video you sent tonight.

But I wanted to get back to you with this point. All of this has to do with the spiritual world, not with physical. As far as the spiritual world is concerned, we can't know what it actually looks like because we can't see it. So when God gives us a vision of something that can't be seen, of course the visions are not going to be literal. The visions explain concepts. Like, if I was to explain to a small child the solar system, I might make a model out of fruit where Earth is an apricot and Jupiter is a watermelon. I am explaining something that a child cannot see or conceptualize - massive objects in space - through something that a child is familiar with and can clearly picture. But a small child is a small child, and he may think that earth is actually a big apricot. It wouldn't be correct of course, but seeing that he is a very small child and what I am trying to explain is a concept of relative size of planets, and that he gets the concept, I would be ok with him thinking for a time that Earth is an apricot. I know that he'll grow up and know that it's not, but the concept of relative size would stay with him. Right?

So for God, we are small children. He gives us a vision of the spiritual world, and if we mistake it to mean that that's how the real physical world is, He is ok with that. That's why He doesn't correct Job or others - He is not concerned with them understanding science. He knows that humanity will one day send a man to the moon and a robot to Mars. As long as we understand concepts, which Job seems to understand, God is ok with that. But God does give Job a talking starting in chapter 38, like "oh yeah Job, well if you are so smart, if you know things, then tell Me how I laid the foundations of the Earth. He is being sarcastic and rebuking Job because Job was upset that God wouldn't explain Himself to him.

Near-east cosmology, if it really does have so much to do with the Bible, could simply be explained as people being small children and thinking that the world is really an apricot. In other words, it's not that near-east cosmology started first and then Bible borrowed a narrative. Bible was written after near-east cosmology, but the source of the Bible is God the Creator. It wasn't just Job or Moses or David or Samuel or Amos writing books they wanted to write. Every one of Biblical authors was inspired by God and they wrote what God told them to write. They are not authors, they are a pen. God is the author. That is, of course, if we believe that all scripture is divinely inspired. Do you believe that? I do.

I don't think that it's an issue for the Biblical authors to have taken such things literally. As long as we make the distinction between what ideas are revealed by God vs what ideas the authors are using to convey revelation. I don't think it matters if Moses thought earth was flat.

So with that, we have near-east cosmology picking up on the same concepts or visions that God had given various people at various times. So of course they are going to be similar visions and ideas. With one big difference - near-east cosmology takes them literally and says this is what the world is really like. Which, of course, we know is not true. And that's how we know it's talking about purely the spiritual world, not the physical. And that's why God is ok with it in the Bible - all or most of the verses you mentioned have to do with the spiritual world where God lives.

Same as above.

Ok, so now back to your fascinating concept about a temple. Yes! God was creating the Earth to be His temple, Eden the Holy of Holies, Adam as His first priest, and humanity as His royal priesthood. Amazing - I never realized that, thank you for pointing it out. It made creation that much more special for me. And when Adam failed and all humanity with him, God provided the High Priest - Himself, and chose (saved) some people to be His royal priesthood.

1 Peter 2:9-12 (NIV)
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Hebrews 4:14 NIV
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

Thanks.

Ok! So how does that relate to the discussion at hand? Did Adam evolve or was Adam created separately? In other words, was Adam the first man, or were there men before Adam? So what we discovered so far:
- All people are animals, but not all animals are people.
- All people are made in God's image.
- All other animals are not made in God's image.

Agree?

That's fine.

If Adam was the first man (his name is literally "the first man"), then who was Adam's grandma? She could not have been made in God's image, because Adam was the first person made in God's image. So she was not a person. Agree?

Adam is just "man" or "human". "The" man would be ha-adam. And there would be an additional Hebrew word for 1st.

I don't think that the Bible clarifies on who the first was, of humanity, to be made in God's image. Adam is the first specifically named. But Genesis 1 of course doesnt mention Adam.

If grandma was not a person, could she have been a homo sapiens? No, because all homo sapiens are people. So she was a different species. Agree?

Speciation, if it happens (which is not a fact), but IF it happens, it takes place over MANY generations. So Adam's grandma could not have been a different species. Agree?

So Adam's grandma was not an image bearer, and she was not a homo sapiens, and she was not another species. Adam's grandma is impossible.

And if there is any doubt left - you just explained that Adam was the first priest of God's temple. God is known for taking firstfruits for Himself. So Adam was the firstfruit of all mankind - Adam was the first man God created and there was no other people created before him.

Agree?

PS. I haven't heard of anyone trying to include all of Genesis 2 into the 6th day. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. With that the work of creating mankind was finished, creation was complete, and God rested. The rest of mankind, including you and me, came after by natural birth.

 

[Job 33:6]

If grandma was not a person, could she have been a homo sapiens? No, because all homo sapiens are people. So she was a different species. Agree?

Well there is a word here that should be clarified. "Humanity" in the Bible is not equivalent to homo sapiens. One is a biblical term from Genesis, the latter is a scientific taxonomy term. If grandma was not in God's image, she could have still been homo sapien.

I would start over and use the terms "human" as per the Bible. Imago dei or an image bearer. And homo sapien.

And I wouldn't use the term "people" because it's not specific to the Bible or to science.

Speciation, if it happens (which is not a fact), but IF it happens, it takes place over MANY generations. So Adam's grandma could not have been a different species. Agree?

Disagree. Let's resolve the first logical series. Then I can open this topic up. But I don't want to digress into science without clarifying the Bible first.

So Adam's grandma was not an image bearer, and she was not a homo sapiens, and she was not another species. Adam's grandma is impossible.

And if there is any doubt left - you just explained that Adam was the first priest of God's temple. God is known for taking firstfruits for Himself. So Adam was the firstfruit of all mankind - Adam was the first man God created and there was no other people created before him.

Agree?

PS. I haven't heard of anyone trying to include all of Genesis 2 into the 6th day. Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. With that the work of creating mankind was finished, creation was complete, and God rested. The rest of mankind, including you and me, came after by natural birth, after the fall.

I'm fine disagreeing here. I've heard plenty refer to chapter 2 as day 6. Eve is created at the end of chapter 2, so people try to cram all of chapter 2 into day 6, which never occurs with teledoths.

 

[olgamc]

Adam is just "man" or "human". "The" man would be ha-adam. And there would be an additional Hebrew word for 1st.

I am referring to Genesis 2:7 - Then the Lord God formed man (ha-adam). All of Genesis 2 refers to "the man" - ha-adam. Genesis 3:17 refers to the same man as Adam, or "the first man" (ule-adam).

I don't think that the Bible clarifies on who the first was, of humanity, to be made in God's image. Adam is the first specifically named. But Genesis 1 of course doesnt mention Adam.

So you think that Adam was not the first man? Ok. Then let's pick another man, the actual first one, the one that's in Genesis 1 and not mentioned by name, and name him Adam, which literally means "the first man". Who was that Adam's grandma?