Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Job 33:6]

Sure. But it doesn't, because you can't appoint a look-alike if it doesn't look like you. It has to look like you first. And if you are God, you have to first make them look like you before you can appoint them as look-alikes.

haha what?

God doesn't have a physical body like ours. His image is not an anatomical image, its a functional purpose related image. It's not, God has two hands, so I have two hands.

It's more like, God brings peace and order and rest and establishes holy space and carries out a purpose and holds a higher meaning.

That's what its about, and so mankind is made in Gods image, so that we do on earth what He does in heaven. He constructed the cosmos and repelled the chaotic waters and the dark deep and the leviathan, he crushed the heads of leviathan (Psalm 74:14), He calmed the sea, He protects us and provides, and brings peace and safety and security.

Now, He has appointed mankind, He has made us, in His Image, to continue carrying out His work, on earth. That is why it says that we are to subdue and rule.

 

[Job 33:6]

haha what?

God doesn't have a physical body like ours. His image is not an anatomical image, its a functional purpose related image. It's not, God has two hands, so I have two hands.

It's more like, God brings peace and order and rest and establishes holy space and carries out a purpose and holds a higher meaning.

That's what its about, and so mankind is made in Gods image, so that we do on earth what He does in heaven. He constructed the cosmos and repelled the chaotic waters and the dark deep and the leviathan, he crushed the heads of leviathan (Psalm 74:14), He calmed the sea, He protects us and provides, and brings peace and safety and security.

Now, He has appointed mankind, He has made us, in His Image, to continue carrying out His work, on earth. That is why it says that we are to subdue and rule.

The Image of God is not about anatomy. He has big biceps, therefore I do to.

Because here's the thing, some poor person is going to be born without arms, and then what? is that person not in Gods image?

It's not about anatomy or physical appearance.

 

[truthpls]

Seems like you could use a history lesson. People didn't know that earth was a sphere 2500+ years ago.

God knew. Probably lots of folks also knew.

And it's not an insult to their intelligence. Its just a fact of history. Same with geocentrism.

No. More like an old wives tale

Many prominent church figures believed in geocentrism, essentially all of them actually, in the first century AD. And going back to the second temple period and prior, people did not know that earth was spherical shaped.

How many church figures did Jesus mention?

 

[Job 33:6]

I don't see created as elected. Elected is elected. LOL But ok, if you see created as elected, then when was humanity created? And it's both biological and spiritual. In order for someone to be saved, or to become a new creation, someone has to exist biologically. Same with elected.

The Bible never says when humanity was created in a materialistic sense. Not saying Adam didn't physically exist, but rather the text never says when he was physically made or creates.

Would you agree that all animals, including homo sapiens, where biologically created on day 6? (I am not meaning literal 24 hour day, just day as a period). I think we agree here.

No. I think they were supernaturally appointed or provided, for human purposes.

Ok, so then something supernatural happens and an animal becomes a person. So the status of an image bearer is given to him.

Supernatural election does not biologically change an animal into a human. Humans are already there, God looks over them and says, ok, you are appointed, all of you. And these humans are not necessarily equivalent to homo sapiens because homo sapiens is a word that scientists made up, and God need not fit our definition.

Could have happened to one man, could have happened to many, it doesn't matter. The point is - one moment there are no image bearers, and the next moment there is at least one.

Right?

Yes. One moment no image bearers, the next moment there are at least 1.

Ok, pick one individual from the crowd of these initial image bearers, and call him George.

Ok. Got it.

 

[Job 33:6]

So if george was the first man (of the first elected), then who was george's grandma?

She's just his grandma. The Bible doesn't say anything about her. She wouldn't be considered "human" according to the Bible. Scientifically we do not know if she is or is not homo sapien.


She could not have been made in God's image, because george was the first person made in God's image. So she was not a person. Agree?

Yes, not elected/appointed/made in the image of God. She's not human in accordance with the Bibles definition.

Scientifically she may or may not be homo sapien.

 

[Job 33:6]

So if george was the first man (of the first elected), then who was george's grandma?

She's just his grandma. The Bible doesn't say anything about her. She wouldn't be considered "human" according to the Bible. Scientifically we do not know if she is or is not homo sapien.


She could not have been made in God's image, because george was the first person made in God's image. So she was not a person. Agree?

Yes, not elected/appointed/made in the image of God. She's not human in accordance with the Bibles definition.

Scientifically she may or may not be homo sapien.

And think this goes back to the topic of sequel. If we thought of Adam as having been made immediately after humanity and George, or alongside George, then Lucy would biologically, likely be homo sapien because Genesis 4 mentions things like musical instruments and before that we have agriculture with working the field. So the chapter 2 narrative isn't as old as homo sapiens (200k years).

So if george lived alongside Adam, then Lucy would be homo sapien. But if George came say, 150k years before Adam, she may not be.

Id be ok with the former conclusion and seeing if that gets me into trouble. I think it's fair to say that there probably never intended to be a 100k year break between chapter 1 and 2. Moses wouldn't have had that in mind.

 

[Job 33:6]

Btw, has speciation been observed and proven or is it still a theory? I thought it's been observed, but now that I am actually looking it up, I can't find it.

Yes.

Observed Instances of Speciation

Observed Instances of Speciation

There is a gentleman here on Christian forums named @sfs who could probably help with highly specific questions, but I could field general information on it.

 

[Job 33:6]

@olgamc

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure. But it doesn't, because you can't appoint a look-alike if it doesn't look like you. It has to look like you first. And if you are God, you have to first make them look like you before you can appoint them as look-alikes.

And one other thing, when God creates mankind in his image, because mankind is instructed to subdue and rule creation, that would mean that George's grandma could very well have been deceased. Because it's hard to do those things when you're not alive.

And so, this is purely hypothetical, but I could imagine a scenario where God would choose the currently living homosapiens, and they would be made in his image. And whatever homo sapiens came before that, that were no longer alive, they would not be in his image.

If we were somehow to combine the two, which I'm still not sure we can really do with clarity but that might be my guess.

 

[olgamc]

haha what?

God doesn't have a physical body like ours. His image is not an anatomical image, its a functional purpose related image. It's not, God has two hands, so I have two hands.

It's more like, God brings peace and order and rest and establishes holy space and carries out a purpose and holds a higher meaning.

That's what its about, and so mankind is made in Gods image, so that we do on earth what He does in heaven. He constructed the cosmos and repelled the chaotic waters and the dark deep and the leviathan, he crushed the heads of leviathan (Psalm 74:14), He calmed the sea, He protects us and provides, and brings peace and safety and security.

Now, He has appointed mankind, He has made us, in His Image, to continue carrying out His work, on earth. That is why it says that we are to subdue and rule.

Come on Job 33:6, I don't mean it literally as in God has two arms and legs, and you know that.

 

[Job 33:6]

Come on Job 33:6, I don't mean it literally as in God has two arms and legs, and you know that.

What did you mean then? Sounded like you were referring to anatomy.

 

[olgamc]

What did you mean then? Sounded like you were referring to anatomy.

God doesn't have anatomy. God's a spirit. Well, until He took human form of course.

In the image of God does not mean having the same anatomy as God. It means resembling God in some way. God couldn't have just pointed at a fish, for example, and said "I choose you to be my resemblance". He had to create the fish in such a way that the fish resembled Him first, before He could elect it to be His official representative or a resemblance. Which of course He didn't. He did that with humans though.

 

[Job 33:6]

God doesn't have anatomy. God's a spirit. Well, until He took human form of course.

In the image of God does not mean having the same anatomy as God. It means resembling God in some way. God couldn't have just pointed at a fish, for example, and said "I choose you to be my resemblance". He had to create the fish in such a way that the fish resembled Him first, before He could elect it to be His official representative or a resemblance. Which of course He didn't. He did that with humans though.

Well, the question then becomes, why do you think that Genesis needs to first talk about what I'm imagining you're talking about is the creation of a physical body, prior to Genesis talking about election?

What if Moses thought that mankind's election was more important than talking about physical morphological origins?

 

[olgamc]

Well, the question then becomes, why do you think that Genesis needs to first talk about what I'm imagining you're talking about is the creation of a physical body, prior to Genesis talking about election?

What if Moses thought that mankind's election was more important than talking about physical morphological origins?

Because Genesis doesn't talk about election. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Not elected. God made the expanse. Not elected the expanse. God made the sun and the moon. God made the stars. God created the great creatures of the sea etc. God made the wild animals etc. Then God said "let Us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule...". So God created mankind in His own image.

Then we go on to chapter 2. "Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth ... then the Lord God formed a man... the Lord God said ... I will make a helper suitable to him... Then the Lord God made a woman".

Nowhere in Genesis 1 or 2 does it talk about election. Later yes, "but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" - at that point we can start saying that Noah was chosen (elected), Abraham was chosen, etc.

 

[olgamc]

Well, the question then becomes, why do you think that Genesis needs to first talk about what I'm imagining you're talking about is the creation of a physical body, prior to Genesis talking about election?

What if Moses thought that mankind's election was more important than talking about physical morphological origins?

You are trying really hard to fit the Bible into science. Why are you trying so hard? You can't explain everything you know. Jesus made wine - good strong aged wine - on the spot out of water. How does that fit into science? It doesn't. He rose from the dead. That doesn't fit either. He got a real physical body after He rose, He ate, He drank, Thomas touched Him, and He also walked through walls and appeared and disappeared at will and eventually floated up into the sky. You can't explain any of it with science.

You see, you are trying so hard, but it makes no sense. (no offense). Because if, as you say, Moses writes about election - well, somehow man had to evolve to be like God and to be capable of his calling. If God is calling man to be ruler over creation, than man had to be intelligent, creative, abstract thinker, capable of knowing right and wrong, capable of having a relationship with an invisible God. Capable of prayer, of grasping theological concepts, etc. And now this is where biology comes in. No animal in the world has a brain like ours. God had to make our brain to suit the purpose He had for us. In making us in His image, He had to give us anatomy that could support these functions. See where I am going with this?

 

[Job 33:6]

Because Genesis doesn't talk about election. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Not elected. God made the expanse. Not elected the expanse. God made the sun and the moon. God made the stars. God created the great creatures of the sea etc. God made the wild animals etc. Then God said "let Us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule...". So God created mankind in His own image.

As I've noted. Bara, or created, has many definitions.

What is an expanse? He made empty air? That's not making anything.

Your response assumes that "mankind" must be something like a material manufacturing. Rather than something like, making a company. Making a home. Making a football team. Etc. sometimes making things does not require a materialistic creation.

I'm going to make an adjustment here:

‭‭‭‭Genesis 1:16 ESV‬‬
[16] And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.

Now let's try this:

‭‭Genesis 1:16
[16] And God *appointed* the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.

You see. The passage never says anything about fire behind gathered or nuclear fusion or anything. The passage focuses on this:

‭‭Genesis 1:14 ESV‬‬
[14] And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,

Signs, seasonal, days and years.

So God is not forming the sun and forming the moon out of atoms and elements. Rather God is appointing the sun moon and stars, designating them for mans purposes of time keeping.

Here's another narrative to help explain:

Well tended is mankind - God's cattle,
He made the sky and Earth for their sake,
He subdues the water monster,
He made breath for their noses to live,
They are his images, who came from his body,
He shines in the sky for their sake;
He made for them plants and cattle,
Foul and fish to feed them...
He makes daylight for their sake,
He sells by to see them.
He has built his shrine around them,
When they reap he hears.

That's instruction of merikare.

The creation in this above narrative is about designating creation for mankind. Appointing it or assigning a purpose. The daylight for their sake, the animals to feed them, the breath for their noses to live etc.

And notice, day 1:
‭‭Genesis 1:3-5 ESV‬‬
[3] And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. [4] And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. [5] God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

What does God even make on day 1? He doesn't make anything. So what exactly is He creating here? Day and night. For mankind's purposes. But day and night aren't even material things. What is night? You can't physically create it. He just "called the light day" and "called the darkness night".

God didn't manufacture day and night. He appointed it. Assigned it. Designated it, for people.

Then we go on to chapter 2. "Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth ... then the Lord God formed a man... the Lord God said ... I will make a helper suitable to him... Then the Lord God made a woman".

Nowhere in Genesis 1 or 2 does it talk about election. Later yes, "but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" - at that point we can start saying that Noah was chosen (elected), Abraham was chosen, etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

You are trying really hard to fit the Bible into science. Why are you trying so hard? You can't explain everything you know. Jesus made wine - good strong aged wine - on the spot out of water. How does that fit into science? It doesn't. He rose from the dead. That doesn't fit either. He got a real physical body after He rose, He ate, He drank, Thomas touched Him, and He also walked through walls and appeared and disappeared at will and eventually floated up into the sky. You can't explain any of it with science.

You see, you are trying so hard, but it makes no sense. (no offense). Because if, as you say, Moses writes about election - well, somehow man had to evolve to be like God and to be capable of his calling. If God is calling man to be ruler over creation, than man had to be intelligent, creative, abstract thinker, capable of knowing right and wrong, capable of having a relationship with an invisible God. Capable of prayer, of grasping theological concepts, etc. And now this is where biology comes in. No animal in the world has a brain like ours. God had to make our brain to suit the purpose He had for us. In making us in His image, He had to give us anatomy that could support these functions. See where I am going with this?

You should understand that in ancient near east texts, these things weren't actually being manufactured. Look at this one:

‭‭Genesis 1:11-12 ESV‬‬
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Again, God never actually makes anything here. The earth brings it forth. With seeds. Where is the actual material creation happening?

 

[Job 33:6]

You should understand that in ancient near east texts, these things weren't actually being manufactured. Look at this one:

‭‭Genesis 1:11-12 ESV‬‬
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Again, God never actually makes anything here. The earth brings it forth. With seeds. Where is the actual material creation happening?

Here's another one. Read it closely:

‭‭Genesis 1:9-10 ESV‬‬
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Did God manufacter the earth here?

No. It just says that the waters were gathered thereby revealing pre existing dry land.

That's not materially creating anything. The creation is more like a divine assignment of purpose or function.

 

[olgamc]

You should understand that in ancient near east texts, these things weren't actually being manufactured. Look at this one:

‭‭Genesis 1:11-12 ESV‬‬
[11] And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. [12] The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Again, God never actually makes anything here. The earth brings it forth. With seeds. Where is the actual material creation happening?

Ok well, you can twist it like that, it's your choice. Question. Did God create the universe, or did the universe create itself?

 

[olgamc]

Ok well, you can twist it like that, it's your choice. Question. Did God create the universe, or did the universe create itself?

The gospel of John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made."

Genesis: "and God said let there be light, and there was light. ...and God said ... and God made ... God said ... God maid" over and over and over again.