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Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

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truthpls

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Nobody is talking about chapter 2. Were talking about in the beginning, chapter 1. Chapter 2 is not retelling chapter 1.
Chapter 2 is fleshing out some points in what was already finished. Look at verse 1 in chapter two. It says it was all finished. All chapter one tells us is that man was created on a certain day.
 
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Job 33:6

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"So pardon my question, but, are there any verses in the Bible that have to do with sin and salvation that do apply to pre-Adam people? Does John 3:16-18 apply?"

Well, John 3:16 is specific to Jesus. I don't think that Lucy would have known about Jesus during her life. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that Jesus could have sought her out after death.

Well, I have to do it, I have to go back to Romans 5:13:
ESV For sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

I guess we could look at things like Psalm 19 or Romans 2.
Romans 2:14 For when gentiles who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

With that, the context is about the Gentiles. It may be the best we have to work with. The old testament doesn't really address these kinds of topics, so we are kind of confined to Pauls writings on it that exist in the Jew Gentile context.
 
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Job 33:6

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Chapter 2 is fleshing out some points in what was already finished. Look at verse 1 in chapter two. It says it was all finished. All chapter one tells us is that man was created on a certain day.
No. Genesis 2 isn't retelling anything about Genesis 1. Chapter 2 comes after chapter 1. They occur in order just like any other chapters in the book. You read chapters sequentially. You don't flip chapters around and replay stories or anything like that.

Nobody ever reads the Bible and starts reversing the chapters around or having chapters retelling the same thing that just happened. That's not how the Bible is written.
 
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olgamc

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I'm fine with Romans 1:20, even though its addressing enemies of God, I don't mind the conclusion that general revelation of God is available to all people.

Romans 2:6, Paul is referring to the saints, "to those who by patience in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality". I don't think we can use this one because it implies awareness of the Law. Lucy wouldn't seek immortality for example because she wouldn't know of it.

Romans 3:10, I'm fine with Lucy being under sin. Same with 3:23.

And yes, being made in the Image of God does not mean being made morally perfect and without sin.
But does being made in God’s image imply being a moral being? As in having moral capacity and moral values?
 
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olgamc

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No. Genesis 2 isn't retelling anything about Genesis 1. Chapter 2 comes after chapter 1. They occur in order just like any other chapters in the book. You read chapters sequentially. You don't flip chapters around and replay stories or anything like that.

Nobody ever reads the Bible and starts reversing the chapters around or having chapters retelling the same thing that just happened. That's not how the Bible is written.
Untrue. Acts 7 has a lot of retelling, for example.
 
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truthpls

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Nope. Adam and Eve and their children are never mentioned in chapter 1.
Not by name yet. Irrelevant. God explains more in chapter 2. Sorry if you thought chapter 2 was some sort of confused second creation or some other disconnected word salad.
You're assuming that chapter 1 is talking about them, however the text simply says "humanity" or "mankind" more broadly.
The word man from Hebrew means this

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) man, mankind
1a) man, human being
1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c) Adam, first man
1d) city in Jordan valley
Despite your wish to harp on the wrong definition for some reason, the context is more than clear. It is also confirmed elsewhere in the bible.
1 Cor 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Jesus was no more a large group of beings than Adam is.
Look at the other days of Genesis.
God creates fish. Population. Not just 2.
Says who? Do we know that He made more than two of each? Naturally, when He made so many kinds the sea would abound with sea life.
God creates birds. Population. Not just 2.
As above. Says who?
God creates the stars. Population. Not just 2.
No one said He only made 2 stars. That is a strawman. When He made only one moon and one sun, we are told exactly that. He made THE sun etc. It does not say 'He made THE star'! No. He made the stars.
God creates the land animals. Population. Not just 2.
Yes, only 2 people. Why not 2 animals as well?
 
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truthpls

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No. Genesis 2 isn't retelling anything about Genesis 1. Chapter 2 comes after chapter 1. They occur in order just like any other chapters in the book. You read chapters sequentially. You don't flip chapters around and replay stories or anything like that.
Yes we first read chapter one. By the time we get to 2 it states it was all finished. Then it gives more details. of what just happened. No flipping involved.
Nobody ever reads the Bible and starts reversing the chapters around or having chapters retelling the same thing that just happened. That's not how the Bible is written.
God gave chapter 2 after chapter one. That IS how the bible is written. The gospel is actually told 4 times.
 
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Job 33:6

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But does being made in God’s image imply being a moral being? As in having moral capacity and moral values?
I don't think that ancient Israelites thought in those terms. But I think that because Lucy could sin, the answer would be that the Imago Dei did not produce a moral capacity in people. People would already have the ability beforehand to do good or evil.
 
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Job 33:6

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Not by name yet. Irrelevant. God explains more in chapter 2. Sorry if you thought chapter 2 was some sort of confused second creation or some other disconnected word salad.

The word man from Hebrew means this

Brown-Driver-Briggs'
1) man, mankind
1a) man, human being
1b) man, mankind (much more frequently intended sense in OT)
1c) Adam, first man
1d) city in Jordan valley
Despite your wish to harp on the wrong definition for some reason, the context is more than clear. It is also confirmed elsewhere in the bible.
1 Cor 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Jesus was no more a large group of beings than Adam is.

Says who? Do we know that He made more than two of each? Naturally, when He made so many kinds the sea would abound with sea life.

As above. Says who?

No one said He only made 2 stars. That is a strawman. When He made only one moon and one sun, we are told exactly that. He made THE sun etc. It does not say 'He made THE star'! No. He made the stars.

Yes, only 2 people. Why not 2 animals as well?
Nah, Genesis 2 is sequel to Genesis 1. That's why Brown-Driver-Briggs notes in the very first definition listed "man,mankind" because it speaks of mankind as a whole. You cant force the Bible to say something that it doesn't say. And what it doesn't say is "Let us create Adam and Eve in our image". I'm sorry but the Bible just doesn't say that.
 
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Job 33:6

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Yes we first read chapter one. By the time we get to 2 it states it was all finished. Then it gives more details. of what just happened. No flipping involved.

God gave chapter 2 after chapter one. That IS how the bible is written. The gospel is actually told 4 times.
The Gospel writers do not read their narratives in reverse order. They don't start with the crucifixion and then go to the sermon on the mount.

And Genesis doesn't reverse course re-reading information either.

Have you ever read the Bible before? Have you ever seen anywhere in the Bible that a Chapter reverses course and repeats the same story?

No. Especially not in Genesis. You don't read the tower of Babel narrative and then re-read it again. You don't ever see Noahs flood happening twice.

That's not how the Bible is written. And I'm sorry to break this news to you. But, as I've said, Adam and Eve are not mentioned in chapter 1. Contrary to what you might have learned in Sunday school as a kid.
 
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Job 33:6

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Untrue. Acts 7 has a lot of retelling, for example.
Well, Chronicles do as well, but here you're looking at a completely separate book.

Yes, Mathew and Mark tell the same story, but again, they don't pause and repeat stories. Also, Acts 7 is 1 chapter. Are you saying that Acts 7 repeats acts 6?
 
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Job 33:6

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Untrue. Acts 7 has a lot of retelling, for example.
Also, on the contrary, if you watched the video I shared a few days ago, you'll notice that, Chapter 2 begins with a teledoth.

And teledoth literary introductions never repeat narratives.

Here are a list of all teledoth in Genesis:
Genesis 5:1
Genesis 6:9
Genesis 10:1
Genesis 11:10
Genesis 11:27
Genesis 25:12
Genesis 25:19
Genesis 36:1
Genesis 36:9
Genesis 37:2

These teledoth literary introductions, you can look at every single one of them, and you will never find that they introduce a retelling of the same story.

The Bible just isn't written that way. They most often tell sequels. That is, the chapters after the teledoths happen after the chapter before the teledoth. Chronologically. Like any regular book or story. You read chapter 1, then you read chapter 2. In order.
 
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olgamc

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I don't think that ancient Israelites thought in those terms.
Why wouldn’t they? People are people and all people know right and wrong, do they not? Why would the ancient Israelites think anything different?
But I think that because Lucy could sin, the answer would be that the Imago Dei did not produce a moral capacity in people. People would already have the ability beforehand to do good or evil.
Are all people made in the image of God, or only some?
 
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Job 33:6

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Untrue. Acts 7 has a lot of retelling, for example.
also, in addition to my last post on teledoths, ancient near east texts of a very similar nature to Genesis, such as Enuma Elish, ancient near east texts don't limit creation of humanity to 2 people. Granted, we don't want ancient literature to be imposed onto the Bible. But what this tells us is that, in these times, this was a common way to write. When mankind was created, it actually meant mankind, and not just Adam. It meant Adam (mankind) not Adam (one man). Also, the text doesn't have a definite article, so its not singular either. It doesn't say "Let us create the man in our image" it just says "let us create man in our image". So its not even identified as singular either.

It's not identified as singular,
its not written as a name,
the teledoth introductions don't lead to the re-telling of stories,
Ancient literature commonly involves the creation of many, a population, not just 2
and, at the end of the day, Genesis 2 contradicts Genesis 1 in its order of events anyway (I know some might disagree, but lets be real here).
 
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olgamc

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And teledoth literary introductions never repeat narratives.

Here are a list of all teledoth in Genesis:
Genesis 5:1
Genesis 6:9
Genesis 10:1
Genesis 11:10
Genesis 11:27
Genesis 25:12
Genesis 25:19
Genesis 36:1
Genesis 36:9
Genesis 37:2

These teledoth literary introductions, you can look at every single one of them, and you will never find that they introduce a retelling of the same story.

The Bible just isn't written that way. They most often tell sequels. That is, the chapters after the teledoths happen after the chapter before the teledoth. Chronologically. Like any regular book or story. You read chapter 1, then you read chapter 2. In order.
Genesis 5:1 literally starts with a repetition of Genesis 1:27.
 
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Job 33:6

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Why wouldn’t they? People are people and all people know right and wrong, do they not? Why would the ancient Israelites think anything different?

Are all people made in the image of God, or only some?

Well, the image of God, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that it is associated with the concept of morality.

Genesis 5:3 is a similar example.
And when Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he fathered a child in his likeness, according to his image. And he called his name Seth.

But I don't think that means that Cain lacked moral capacity in opposition to Seth.

Sometimes its used in reference to image bearing idols:
Then all the people of the land went to the temple of Baal and tore it down, and its altars and its images they broke completely into pieces. Mattan the priest of Baal they killed in front of the altars. Then the priest put guards over the house of Yahweh. 2 Kings 11

Thats not really about morality.

And you will take up Sikkuth, your king, and Kaiwan, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves.
Amos 5:26

Yea I mean, what I'm saying is that, usually when that concept is used, its just not directly linked to morality. It mostly appears to be used with relation to like a, representation of a sort. Sometimes its good, sometimes its evil depending on the deity. In Genesis its linked to subduing and ruling, and that's more like a verb. An action. It's not really about whether or not people have a capacity to sin or not. etc.

And the Bible just says that humanity or mankind is in the image of God, made in His image. So that would be everyone, including Lucy.
 
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Job 33:6

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Genesis 5:1 literally starts with a repetition of Genesis 1:27.
But the narrative that comes after 5:1 doesn't retell the narrative before 5:1. These are completely different parts of Genesis.

So if these literary introductions introduce narratives that come after the prior chapter, then we shouldn't see the same introduction in chapter 2 and think "oh wow, I bet this re-tells Genesis 1".
 
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Job 33:6

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Genesis 5:1 literally starts with a repetition of Genesis 1:27.
Here, I'll explain further.

Genesis 5:1, we have our introduction "these are the generations" or "this is the book of the generations".

And as we read, we see that the story is about Adams descendents. Seth, Enosh, Kenan, It lays out this genealogy. And it goes all the way to Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japeth.

But, we don't see Noah in Chapter 4 for example. Chapter 5 is tells us information that happens after chapter 4. Chapter 5 tells us about events that happen after chapter 4.

Or, lets pick another one.

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah.

Right, we know this story. Its the story of Noahs flood. But what about before this? It talks about the nephelim and the sons of God (that introduced their own form of sin to the land which prompted God to flood the earth).

So here again, the teledoth introduces a story that comes after the narrative before it. That is, Chapter 6:9 tells us the story of the flood, and before 6:9 is the pre-flood events.

Right, so we read the Bible in order. And these teledoth formulas, they almost always tell sequels. Part 2. Heres what comes next. They never re-tell stories.
 
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olgamc

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Also, on the contrary, if you watched the video I shared a few days ago, you'll notice that, Chapter 2 begins with a teledoth.

And teledoth literary introductions never repeat narratives.

Here are a list of all teledoth in Genesis:
Genesis 5:1
Genesis 6:9
Genesis 10:1
Genesis 11:10
Genesis 11:27
Genesis 25:12
Genesis 25:19
Genesis 36:1
Genesis 36:9
Genesis 37:2

These teledoth literary introductions, you can look at every single one of them, and you will never find that they introduce a retelling of the same story.

The Bible just isn't written that way. They most often tell sequels. That is, the chapters after the teledoths happen after the chapter before the teledoth. Chronologically. Like any regular book or story. You read chapter 1, then you read chapter 2. In order.
Not only does Genesis 5:1 start from repeating Genesis 1:27, but it makes it the same story as Adam.

“When God created adam (man/mankind), He made them in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And He named them “adam” (man/mankind) when they were created. When Adam (man/mankind) had lived a 130 years, he had a son…”
 
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Here, I'll explain further.

Genesis 5:1, we have our introduction "these are the generations" or "this is the book of the generations".

And as we read, we see that the story is about Adams descendents. Seth, Enosh, Kenan, It lays out this genealogy. And it goes all the way to Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japeth.

But, we don't see Noah in Chapter 4 for example. Chapter 5 is tells us information that happens after chapter 4. Chapter 5 tells us about events that happen after chapter 4.

Or, lets pick another one.

Genesis 6:9
These are the generations of Noah.

Right, we know this story. Its the story of Noahs flood. But what about before this? It talks about the nephelim and the sons of God (that introduced their own form of sin to the land which prompted God to flood the earth).

So here again, the teledoth introduces a story that comes after the narrative before it. That is, Chapter 6:9 tells us the story of the flood, and before 6:9 is the pre-flood events.

Right, so we read the Bible in order. And these teledoth formulas, they almost always tell sequels. Part 2. Heres what comes next. They never re-tell stories.
the only exception to sequels, are separate narratives that occur with overlapping times. Like Genesis 36:1 with Ishmael and Isaac. But overall, as noted above, these introductions, these literary intros to stories, they don't re-tell stories. They almost always simply tell sequels.

And that is just one of many additional evidences for chapter 2, in reality being a sequel to chapter 1.

And then you have Cain meeting his wife before other sons and daughters are born. Cain fears that someone would kill him. He builds a city.

These are all things that happen in Genesis before chapter 5 and before any mention of Adam and Eve having other sons and daughters (which happens after Seth and of course Seth was born after Cains exile anyway).

So, ya know. I understand that everyone grows up their whole lives thinking that Adam and Eve were the only two people. But upon close analysis, in reality the text isn't actually saying that. And people are just going to have to get over it I guess.
 
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