Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Dan1988]

But I agree with you that once God conceives of something, it is done, because it has no other choice. From that perspective, how old are you? Did you begin when God made up his mind to create you? Did He direct all of your ancestors to meet and fall in love at just the right time and generate just the right egg/sperm combination so that by the time your parents conceived you, the genetic makeup that gives you your handsome features was already in place? Or did you begin at conception? Or did you begin at birth? How old are you really, Dan1988, and how long did God take to make you?

I also agree that God doesn't have to wait. He can do everything instantly. And yet for some reason it appears that He doesn't do everything instantly. Sometimes He does, and sometimes He takes time. He could have raised Lazarus from where He was, He didn't even have to come. But He delayed for a few days, and then made the journey, and then took time to cry and talk to Mary and Martha.

There are two perspectives to consider before you ask how old something is. There is Gods perspective and ours, God sees the whole of history, from the beginning to the end as if it had already come to pass.

So from Gods perspective I was created before the world was made. My mane was written in His book before the first atom was created, that was a very long time ago. We are not told exactly how long ago it was.

From our narrow human perspective, I'm 36 years old. It may seem like a paradox but I may be 10,000 and 36 years old at the same time, depending on who's perspective we're talking about.

The Bible declares that the earth was created around 6,000 years ago. I know scientists may look at the layers of sediment on the bottom of the ocean and calculate that the earth is 4 billion years old. The thing they failed to take into consideration is, what if God created a mature earth with trees that appeared to be 6000 years old on the day they were made.

When we superimpose our view over God's, we get into all kinds of difficulties and confusion.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There are two perspectives to consider before you ask how old something is. There is Gods perspective and ours, God sees the whole of history, from the beginning to the end as if it had already come to pass.

So from Gods perspective I was created before the world was made. My mane was written in His book before the first atom was created, that was a very long time ago. We are not told exactly how long ago it was.

From our narrow human perspective, I'm 36 years old. It may seem like a paradox but I may be 10,000 and 36 years old at the same time, depending on who's perspective we're talking about.

The Bible declares that the earth was created around 6,000 years ago. I know scientists may look at the layers of sediment on the bottom of the ocean and calculate that the earth is 4 billion years old. The thing they failed to take into consideration is, what if God created a mature earth with trees that appeared to be 6000 years old on the day they were made.

When we superimpose our view over God's, we get into all kinds of difficulties and confusion.

While I may agree with certain aspects of what you've said, such as the fact that God has His view and we have ours and that these respective views are absolutely different in quality and kind, simply applying 1st order logic to this distinction doesn't establish that you or I know precisely what is entailed in "God's view."

So, rather than either you or I standing off and overly criticizing each other, such as you've been doing thus far of fellow Christians like myself, I think it'd be better to offer each other a bit of graciousness as we ponder over who and what God is and what He has done in this world.

 

[tonychanyt]

Let us say that there is some force that is randomly hitting keyboard buttons on my computer. And it generates mostly gibberish. But at some point in time it just happened to hit the right buttons in the right order to produce this sequence of characters:
cat
And then you, an intelligent being, read that sequence of characters. Well to you that sequence carries a meaning, or information, where there really was no meaning, just a random sequence of random characters. What just happened?

Randomness just happened.

Was a brand new piece of information just created?

No, not a brand new piece, but random pieces of information have been created, along with "cat".

See Chinese room - Wikipedia

 

[Dan1988]

While I may agree with certain aspects of what you've said, such as the fact that God has His view and we have ours and that these respective views are absolutely different in quality and kind, simply applying 1st order logic to this distinction doesn't establish that you or I know precisely what is entailed in "God's view."

So, rather than either you or I standing off and overly criticizing each other, such as you've been doing thus far of fellow Christians like myself, I think it'd be better to offer each other a bit of graciousness as we ponder over who and what God is and what He has done in this world.

Nobody knows who or what God is, because He is a mystery. We only know what He has revealed about Himself in the Bible, apart from that we know nothing.
I see professing Christians here, trying to add and take away from what God has said. God said He would cast such people into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity. So it's an extremely serious matter, nobody should be trying to fill in the blanks which God purposely hid from us as God promised the most horrific punishment imaginable for those who commit such evil.

Lets just discuss what God has said, and leave the ideologies and philosophies of Mystics and Carleton's out of it

 

[olgamc]

Did they (who you refer to) lie to you ? Did they seek to harm you or otherwise destroy your life ?

No, of course not. Do scientists generally lie to you and seek to harm you or otherwise destroy your life? Did Darwin specifically? Even if it were true, what did Joseph say to his brothers who did intentionally try to harm him and destroy his life? Genesis 50:20

Remember, our battle is not against people, but against the devil. And devil's strategy is to pervert the truth. All creation manifests the glory of God. And the more we understand it, the more it reveals of how glorious and wise and awesome our God is. There is nothing wrong with studying creation, but we need to be vigilant about what we believe regardless of what we study. That includes scientific theories or implications of scientific discoveries, but it also includes our interpretation of the Bible. Wrong interpretations, or adding to the Bible, or putting God into a box, saying there is something He can't do, or being proud that we know everything. As if. All those are lies from the devil to make us proud, judgmental, arrogant. If we are really God's children, we should behave like God's children - patient, accepting, making peace, reconciling. Not arguing or accusing or judging.

 

[Job 33:6]

Adam and Eve were not the first people in the Bible. Nor does the text say how God made them.

 

[olgamc]

Hmmm.... Remembering in Galatians it is written that what Jesus saves us from includes society - pernicious, death-dealing society.

For simply reading of this, clear and totally in line with the Bible ,
see, if it is available, and if you want to,
"The Mind Behind The System"
and
"Love Not The World".... things in the world, including the systems of the world, are not neutral nor benign ..... no, as written, the world is dangerous.

Ok. But you are using a computer or a smart phone right now, right? Electricity and internet? So you are ok with using the things invented by the world, as long as you don't understand how they work? If you or your loved one needed a cancer treatment, would you take it?

Aristotle discovered that Earth was round. Until then people thought it was flat, resting on a foundation, with pillars supporting a solid sky. If we read the Bible literally, that second sentence is what we would understand. We needed Aristotle to correct us. Copernicus discovered that Earth rotated around the Sun, and not the other way around. Someone had to discover that the moon was not a light - Bible literally says it is. Someone else proved that Sun was a star, and not a different thing altogether. If we read it literally, bible makes a distinction. Is there anything sacrilige in these discoveries? No. They helped us to clarify the Bible in areas of our human misunderstanding. Why are you afraid of scientific discovery? Or is it something else that you are worried about?

 

[olgamc]

First Trust Yahweh, the Giver of Life. Truthful. Honest. Faithful. Almighty. Creator.

Next, read His Word. The Bible. What He Says is Truth, unchangeable.

Good. In His unchangeable Word, God says in Romans 1:18-20 "18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

The rest of the chapter talks about how people chose to deny God and think up their own foolish ideas of what He was like. But that never changed the fact that God has revealed to us the truth about what He is like in His creation. Through everything God made.

We don't have to take up their foolish ideas, but we can still study God's creation and learn from it, as well as from the Bible.

I wonder if you think that we can't learn from Darwin without becoming polluted by his ideas about man from monkey? Is that what you are worried about? I agree that it's a risk, and that's why I am passionate about teaching my kids to think and discern as opposed to shutting them off from the world. Bible never tells us to escape the world. It tell us to live in the world but not behave like the world does. But many people choose to live in a bubble, and it's their freedom of choice I guess.

 

[olgamc]

Nobody knows who or what God is, because He is a mystery. We only know what He has revealed about Himself in the Bible, apart from that we know nothing.
I see professing Christians here, trying to add and take away from what God has said. God said He would cast such people into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity. So it's an extremely serious matter, nobody should be trying to fill in the blanks which God purposely hid from us as God promised the most horrific punishment imaginable for those who commit such evil.

Lets just discuss what God has said, and leave the ideologies and philosophies of Mystics and Carleton's out of it

Yes, I share the same concern about our brothers and sisters adding or taking away from the Bible, as well as believing it too literally. My young creationist friends believe that mosquitoes and viruses were added to creation after sin. They will argue day and night that there was no blood sucking mosquitoes in the world before the fall, and oh yeah, bacteria that decomposes dead leaves was also created after the fall as part of the curse, because there was no dead leaves, because there was no death. Another friend has difficulty believing in bacteria altogether, because it's not in the Bible. Another friend does not believe that viruses mutate, because that would be evolution, and there can't be evolution if there is God. She can't accept that she gets a cold every year because the cold virus has changed from the year before? Oh yeah, viruses were also created after the fall. But creation was complete on day 6 nevertheless. Another friend will swear up and down that Adam only had to name a few animals and not all of the animals that exist today, because different varieties came after, but that's not evolution. Seriously? And they say they know the truth, and that the Bible literally says all those things. Yes, they all say they believe the Bible literally and are not adding to it. To me it just looks like a lie and the spirit of confusion.

God created multiple ways for us to know Him. He created the world. Look at Romans 8:20 and Psalm 19:1. He gave us the written Word. He came to us Himself in flesh. He gave us the Holy Spirit. And what do we say? Thanks God, but no thanks. I'll read your Word ok, but I will ignore creation. Or I will not listen to the Spirit or even believe that the Spirit communicates with us nowadays. Or I will only listen to the Spirit or look at creation and not read your Word. What? He gave us all those ways so that we can get to know Him on multiple levels. We are commanded to grow in the knowledge of God.

 

[olgamc]

Randomness just happened.



No, not a brand new piece, but random pieces of information have been created, along with "cat".

See Chinese room - Wikipedia

I read the article, but it says it applies only to AI, and I was talking about a machine in general. Here's the issue that I see. Theory of evolution essentially says that a random force could have been generating characters for billions of years. Given a very long period of time and a corrective process, this random force could have generated this paragraph, (or this forum, or an entire internet worth of meaningful content). Scientifically speaking, matter and energy - material things - have always existed, they can't come from nothing, they can only be re-arranged or transferred. My question is - could information, which is a non-material thing, come from nothing? Because that's what the theory of atheistic evolution implies, doesn't it?

 

[Dan1988]

Yes, I share the same concern about our brothers and sisters adding or taking away from the Bible, as well as believing it too literally. My young creationist friends believe that mosquitoes and viruses were added to creation after sin. They will argue day and night that there was no blood sucking mosquitoes in the world before the fall, and oh yeah, bacteria that decomposes dead leaves was also created after the fall as part of the curse, because there was no dead leaves, because there was no death. Another friend has difficulty believing in bacteria altogether, because it's not in the Bible. Another friend does not believe that viruses mutate, because that would be evolution, and there can't be evolution if there is God. She can't accept that she gets a cold every year because the cold virus has changed from the year before? Oh yeah, viruses were also created after the fall. But creation was complete on day 6 nevertheless. Another friend will swear up and down that Adam only had to name a few animals and not all of the animals that exist today, because different varieties came after, but that's not evolution. Seriously? And they say they know the truth, and that the Bible literally says all those things. Yes, they all say they believe the Bible literally and are not adding to it. To me it just looks like a lie and the spirit of confusion.

God created multiple ways for us to know Him. He created the world. Look at Romans 8:20 and Psalm 19:1. He gave us the written Word. He came to us Himself in flesh. He gave us the Holy Spirit. And what do we say? Thanks God, but no thanks. I'll read your Word ok, but I will ignore creation. Or I will not listen to the Spirit or even believe that the Spirit communicates with us nowadays. Or I will only listen to the Spirit or look at creation and not read your Word. What? He gave us all those ways so that we can get to know Him on multiple levels. We are commanded to grow in the knowledge of God.

The Holy Bible is Gods living, eternal and inerrant Word. We can't take it literally enough, we always fall short of understanding due to our lack of faith.
There's no point in debating what the Bible says with unqualified people. Those who have questions should seek out the advice of the experts, as in Bible Theologians, Church Ministers, Church Elders and leaders. They are the people who can answer all of those questions you and your friends have.
If you seek advice about your car from a pastry chef, then you will get poor advice. But if you consult a qualified Automotive Technician, you will get proper advice so you can make an informed decision about your options.

Too many people approach the Holy Bible, with the attitude that Gods Word has to conform to their expectations and what make sense to them. The problem there is, the human has a puny little retarded mind and God has an infinitely wise mind. He knows everything about everything. Humans know everything about nothing in comparison.
This is why there are thousands of different interpretations about everything God has said. If we allow God to be God and take Him at His Word we wouldn't have any problems at all, because everything would make sense.

The root cause of all the evil and problems in the world is, mans rebellion against God. It always results in damnation, suffering and misery. God didn't give us His Word to ruin our party, He gave it to us as the greatest gift we could possibly have. Yet people trample over His Word like it was worthless trash.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Nobody knows who or what God is, because He is a mystery. We only know what He has revealed about Himself in the Bible, apart from that we know nothing. I see professing Christians here, trying to add and take away from what God has said. God said He would cast such people into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity. So it's an extremely serious matter, nobody should be trying to fill in the blanks which God purposely hid from us as God promised the most horrific punishment imaginable for those who commit such evil.

Lets just discuss what God has said, and leave the ideologies and philosophies of Mystics and Carleton's out of it

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that none of us Christians should be reading or studying any other books (or other sources) other than the Bible?

While I understand the general notion that we're to avoid adding to or subtracting from the Bible, how do you deal with the fact that the Bible doesn't explain itself in comprehensive terms or make "itself" absolutely clear on every point that seems central, especially on those points that pertain to the Origins and Development of Life, or the End of All Things?

 

[tonychanyt]

Theory of evolution essentially says that a random force could have been generating characters for billions of years.

reference? Note the bold.

 

[Job 33:6]

Good. In His unchangeable Word, God says in Romans 1:18-20 "18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God."

The rest of the chapter talks about how people chose to deny God and think up their own foolish ideas of what He was like. But that never changed the fact that God has revealed to us the truth about what He is like in His creation. Through everything God made.

We don't have to take up their foolish ideas, but we can still study God's creation and learn from it, as well as from the Bible.

I wonder if you think that we can't learn from Darwin without becoming polluted by his ideas about man from monkey? Is that what you are worried about? I agree that it's a risk, and that's why I am passionate about teaching my kids to think and discern as opposed to shutting them off from the world. Bible never tells us to escape the world. It tell us to live in the world but not behave like the world does. But many people choose to live in a bubble, and it's their freedom of choice I guess.

Most things you're saying, I agree with. But my thought is that, if the Bible isn't written with scientific language, then why would it matter if we evolved from archaic hominids? Theologically.

 

[olgamc]

The Holy Bible is Gods living, eternal and inerrant Word. We can't take it literally enough, we always fall short of understanding due to our lack of faith.
There's no point in debating what the Bible says with unqualified people. Those who have questions should seek out the advice of the experts, as in Bible Theologians, Church Ministers, Church Elders and leaders. They are the people who can answer all of those questions you and your friends have.
If you seek advice about your car from a pastry chef, then you will get poor advice. But if you consult a qualified Automotive Technician, you will get proper advice so you can make an informed decision about your options.

Too many people approach the Holy Bible, with the attitude that Gods Word has to conform to their expectations and what make sense to them. The problem there is, the human has a puny little retarded mind and God has an infinitely wise mind. He knows everything about everything. Humans know everything about nothing in comparison.
This is why there are thousands of different interpretations about everything God has said. If we allow God to be God and take Him at His Word we wouldn't have any problems at all, because everything would make sense.

The root cause of all the evil and problems in the world is, mans rebellion against God. It always results in damnation, suffering and misery. God didn't give us His Word to ruin our party, He gave it to us as the greatest gift we could possibly have. Yet people trample over His Word like it was worthless trash.

Precisely. So let us not read the Bible with the attitude that we understand everything.

Like you said yourself, you are both very old and very young. And I would argue that both of us are still being created as we are being made into God’s likeness. So on one hand, at some point in time, God said “let us make Dan1988 and olgamc” and it was so. On the other hand, neither you or I are yet fully complete. Even our physical bodies are still developing, as our brains are making new connections and pruning the ones we no longer need.

So why not just accept that the world is a different age in God’s time as it is in human time? Creation is written by God, not by a human. In God’s time God said and it was so. But scientists study human time, and in human time things take time. So both the Biblical account and scientific findings can be right, and there is no conflict. Even if we believe that the process of creation was instant in human time, Adam’s body was about 20 years old when his body was 1 day old. Why can’t earth’s body be billions years old when it is 6,000 years old? They can both be true, and we don’t need to argue.

Also regarding the idea that during creation week everything happened instantly. So God created all of the plants on day 3, right? In their fully mature adult form? So what is a fully mature adult form for wheat? Would you agree that it’s a fully grown stalk with mature seeds? Or a blueberry bush. A fully grown bush with ripe blueberries, right? Ok, now look at Genesis 2:5-7. It’s day 6, and at least some of the plants haven’t even sprouted yet, let alone fully grown.

So this idea that everything was created instantly in its fully mature form, is that in the Bible, or have we added to the Bible?

Another thought. God could instantly by his word put the man to sleep, take out his rib, close the place with flesh, and fashion the rib into a woman. But He couldn’t instantly by His word change the dna of an ameba? Of course He could, He is God, He can do anything, and He doesn’t need hands or tools like we humans. But let’s not confuse could and did. Christians argue against evolution with the argument that He did create instantly and He could not have used a process. Who are we to be talking about what God did and what He can and cannot do. We get mad at the world for taking a theory (could have happened) and turning it into fact (did happen). But we do the exact same thing! We take a theory (creation could have been instant) and turn it into fact (was instant). We have a log in our eye that we are not noticing.

 

[Joseph G]

Most things you're saying, I agree with. But my thought is that, if the Bible isn't written with scientific language, then why would it matter if we evolved from archaic hominids? Theologically.

Then we would not be any different from the animals - making the Biblical declaration that humans alone are made in the image of God - a lie.

Either the Bible is inspired in total - or not at all. There's no straddling both sides of the fence.

 

[olgamc]

reference? Note the bold.

Proof by contradiction. If beneficial mutations are not random, then they are intentional. Intentionality implies intelligence. Intelligence implies creator. Which atheistic theory of evolution denies.

 

[olgamc]

Most things you're saying, I agree with. But my thought is that, if the Bible isn't written with scientific language, then why would it matter if we evolved from archaic hominids? Theologically.

Why did God take time to specifically dictate chapter 2 of Genesis? The chapter is important. In that chapter He specifically says that Adam and Eve were created not like animals. They were created special (set apart, holy), in God’s image and likeness (good, intelligent, creative, etc), alive by the breath (aka spirit) of God. And marriage was created as a symbol for God’s relationship with the church, His bride. Those are immense theological and moral implications.

 

[Joseph G]

Precisely. So let us not read the Bible with the attitude that we understand everything.

Like you said yourself, you are both very old and very young. And I would argue that both of us are still being created as we are being made into God’s likeness. So on one hand, at some point in time, God said “let us make Dan1988 and olgamc” and it was so. On the other hand, neither you or I are yet fully complete. Even our physical bodies are still developing, as our brains are making new connections and pruning the ones we no longer need.

So why not just accept that the world is a different age in God’s time as it is in human time? Creation is written by God, not by a human. In God’s time God said and it was so. But scientists study human time, and in human time things take time. So both the Biblical account and scientific findings can be right, and there is no conflict. Even if we believe that the process of creation was instant in human time, Adam’s body was about 20 years old when his body was 1 day old. Why can’t earth’s body be billions years old when it is 6,000 years old? They can both be true, and we don’t need to argue.

Also regarding the idea that during creation week everything happened instantly. So God created all of the plants on day 3, right? In their fully mature adult form? So what is a fully mature adult form for wheat? Would you agree that it’s a fully grown stalk with mature seeds? Or a blueberry bush. A fully grown bush with ripe blueberries, right? Ok, now look at Genesis 2:5-7. It’s day 6, and at least some of the plants haven’t even sprouted yet, let alone fully grown.

So this idea that everything was created instantly in its fully mature form, is that in the Bible, or have we added to the Bible?

Another thought. God could instantly by his word put the man to sleep, take out his rib, close the place with flesh, and fashion the rib into a woman. But He couldn’t instantly by His word change the dna of an ameba? Of course He could, He is God, He can do anything, and He doesn’t need hands or tools like we humans. But let’s not confuse could and did. Christians argue against evolution with the argument that He did create instantly and He could not have used a process. Who are we to be talking about what God did and what He can and cannot do. We get mad at the world for taking a theory (could have happened) and turning it into fact (did happen). But we do the exact same thing! We take a theory (creation could have been instant) and turn it into fact (was instant). We have a log in our eye that we are not noticing.

From "Darwin's Religious Beliefs"

Darwin’s Religious Beliefs | Faraday

www.faraday.cam.ac.uk

"Darwin also wrote to another correspondent in 1879, “Science has nothing to do with Christ.” Perhaps it is because he said the following year, “I do not believe in the Bible as a divine revelation, & therefore not in Jesus Christ as the son of God.” Perhaps it is because he said in his autobiography that, given that “the plain language of the text seems to [point towards]…everlasting punishment…I can…hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true.”

Thus it is with his acolytes ever since.

THIS is the spirit a professing Christian wants to align themselves with? For the sake of embracing a little leaven of scientific truth?

 

[tonychanyt]

Proof by contradiction.

Are you familiar with First-Order Logic?