Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[olgamc]

As long as our overarching goal is to lead others to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ - I wholeheartedly agree!

Yes! And as long as whatever we do, we do to the glory of God. Absolutely!

 

[olgamc]

Yes.

So what is the difference between the organism and the genetic information? Which is the agent that does the work? Which is active and which is passive?

I am not sure actually. On one hand, information is not alive and is not physical, so it can't be active or passive, it just exists. On the other hand, genetic information serves a purpose. I am using the verb "serves", which is an action. But what's your point?

(btw, if you want we can move this to another thread, because I feel like this is a different conversation from your original question - can you believe in evolution and be Christian)

 

[tonychanyt]

I am not sure actually. On one hand, information is not alive and is not physical,

Genetic information is physically stored in a DNA molecule. It contains instructions analogous to a computer program. It is passive.

On the other hand, polymerases are molecular machines. They work inside the nucleus. They are enzymes that synthesize replication, transcription, and repair.

Outside of the nucleus, ribosomes are cellular organelles responsible for synthesizing proteins.

Polymerases and ribosomes are molecular machines that execute according to the input genetic instructions.

Strictly speaking, information needs some kind of CPU to run on them. If you make this distinction, information cannot create itself because information cannot act.

 

[olgamc]

Hi for myself it's jest a question of believing Gods word When he says he created the heaven's and the earth then that's what he did it dose not need to be interpreted it jest needs to be believed.
If we have to interpret and proove it then we don't believe it do we really need to learn ancient languages to know what God wants us to know usually those who use ancient languages only use it so they can change the meaning of the words as we have them in English.
I believe the God who created the heaven and earth is more than caperble of producing a book as he wants it to be all we have to do is believe what it says.

Love and Peace
Dave

I agree that we don't need to prove it. We can't actually. God can't be scientifically proven or disproven, and that's why it's called belief or faith. But God gives different jobs to all of us, does He not? To some God gives curiosity. Some want to know why. I am one of those annoying kids who always asked why, and I was fortunate to have a mom who didn't say "just because". I distinctly remember that conversation with my mom when I was about 5 years old. Why is the sky blue? Because oxygen is blue. What's oxygen? It's gas. What's gas? If it's all around us, why can't I see it in my hand but only when I look at the sky? What makes it blue? And so on. My mom ended up getting a whole bunch of clear plastic bags for me. When you look at one bag, it's clear. When you put a whole thick stack of them together, they are white or blue or whatever tint they had. Wow!!!

My mom has a phd in chemistry, my dad phd in physics, and I grew up to become a software developer. God designed me to be curious, gave me a faculty of logic and reason, and put me in an environment where questions were welcome. Why did He do that? I don't know. But I have come to learn that the way the devil works is by twisting and perverting the truth, and intermixing it with a lie. Like a string made out of two different strands. And that sometimes I seem to be able to discern which part of the string is genuine silk, and which part is polyester, and I seem to be able to unravel it, throw away the polyester, and hold on to silk. And that we are actually commanded to do that - discern the truth and hold on to it. So in that regard, it is important to constantly question what we believe vs what God actually said.

And yes, I do look up definitions of words in the original language. Bible was not written in English, and it was not written in modern times. Languages change, English changes, and with that our understanding changes. So to preserve the original meaning, we must absolutely study ancient culture and language. That's why we need each other, and God designed us to need each other - linguists, historians, geologists, scientists, theologians, philosophers - we all have a role to play in preserving the truth. So let's not fight with each other and let's not look down on people who have a different perspective. We have 2 eyes, because by having a slightly different perspective from each eye we can see in 3d. If one eye said to the other - your perspective is wrong, well, the whole body would lose out.

 

[olgamc]

Genetic information is physically stored in a DNA molecule. It contains instructions analogous to a computer program. It is passive.

On the other hand, polymerases are molecular machines. They work inside the nucleus. They are enzymes that synthesize replication, transcription, and repair.

Outside of the nucleus, ribosomes are cellular organelles responsible for synthesizing proteins.

Polymerases and ribosomes are molecular machines that execute according to the input genetic instructions.

Strictly speaking, information needs some kind of CPU to run on them. If you make this distinction, information cannot create itself because information cannot act.

But I can write a program that writes a program, so I still don't understand what you are saying.

 

[tonychanyt]

But I can write a program that writes a program, so I still don't understand what you are saying.

Where is this program stored? What executes this program? These are two different entities. The program is stored in memory. It is executed by the CPU powered by electricity. Without the CPU and electricity, the program cannot write anything. Are you able to make this distinction?

Do you have a computer science degree?

 

[olgamc]

Where is this program stored? What executes this program? These are two different entities. The program is stored in memory. It is executed by the CPU powered by electricity. Without the CPU and electricity, the program cannot write anything. Are you able to make this distinction?

Do you have a computer science degree?

Of course I can make this distinction. Without a computer, the program only exists in my imagination. Without a cell, dna data only exists in God's imagination. So?

 

[tonychanyt]

Without a computer, the program only exists in my imagination.

Without a computer, a program can exist on a piece of paper.

Do you have a CS degree?

 

[olgamc]

Without a computer, a program can exist on a piece of paper.

Do you have a CS degree?

Well sure, but it won't do anything. What is your point? You keep not saying your point.

Is my education relevant? Tell you what, I'll make you a deal. You say your point in English, and I'll tell you whether I have a cs degree.

 

[tonychanyt]

Well sure, but it won't do anything. What is your point? You keep not saying your point.

My point has been this: Strictly speaking, information is passive data. It cannot act. It cannot create itself.

 

[olgamc]

I think it was utterly disproven long ago, and repeatedly as they changed the theory because it was disproven over and over again.
But, that historically true is not accepted by those who want to continue debating a theory as if it was worth doing for whatever reasons the world has.

It's not that Aaron112. According to Darwin, plants came first, then water animals, then land animals, then people. It's the same historic progression as in the Biblical creation account. The difference is that Darwin tried to theorize how creation could have happened without a Creator - and of course he then had to make assumptions or logical deductions that were false. But it does not mean that everything he observed was false. Just that some of his deductions were false. Scientific process is self-correcting, so some of Darwin's errors have been recognized and disproven, others proven true and others remain a theory.

 

[olgamc]

My point has been this: Strictly speaking, information is passive data. It cannot act. It cannot create itself.

But why are you making that point? Who said that information can create itself? I think you are maybe referring to the addition of information that needs to happen in order to go from a simpler organism to a more complex one? So in that case, we do have an organism - we are not just dealing with information as a concept in a vacuum.

I do not have a university degree. I have a triple specialty from a college software development program, 25+ years of software development experience, and a few university courses here and there, including a year of computer science before I came to North America, and an intro to AI course from Stanford U. My favorite subject was discreet math.

 

[tonychanyt]

Who said that information can create itself?

I don't know. That's my question as well.

Strictly speaking, neither can information alone produce more information because information by itself cannot act. It requires an associated active agent to process passive information.

Have you ever written some program code on a piece of paper?

 

[olgamc]

I don't know. That's my question as well.

Strictly speaking, neither can information alone produce more information because information by itself cannot act. It requires an associated active agent to process passive information.

Have you ever written some program code on a piece of paper?

Yes I have, in high school. And before that, I used to help my mom make punch cards. Why? You are making me feel old. Lol

 

[Dan1988]

Interesting perspective. I suddenly feel very fortunate that I didn't go to a North American university, and grateful to have maintained my God-given ability to reason and to ask questions. Questions like I wonder how Dan1988 knows that God just spoke and fish appeared, when Genesis 1:21 says "created" or "fashioned".

God commands something to come into existence and it must, as it has no choice other than to obey God command. You can play with words all you like but the fact remains, that God creates things by speaking them into existence. He doesn't have hands, to Taylor fashion suits like Hugo Boss.
God is a spirit, He doesn't have a material body to manipulate the elements. He also never messed around waiting millions of years for pond scum to grow legs and become mammals. He created everything in it's fully formed mature state, i couldn't think of a more retarded method to make things than take millions of years to achieve minute progress. That really insults my intelligence

 

[olgamc]

My point has been this: Strictly speaking, information is passive data. It cannot act. It cannot create itself.

Let us say that there is some force that is randomly hitting keyboard buttons on my computer. And it generates mostly gibberish. But at some point in time it just happened to hit the right buttons in the right order to produce this sequence of characters:
cat
And then you, an intelligent being, read that sequence of characters. Well to you that sequence carries a meaning, or information, where there really was no meaning, just a random sequence of random characters. What just happened? Was a brand new piece of information just created?

 

[olgamc]

God commands something to come into existence and it must, as it has no choice other than to obey God command. You can play with words all you like but the fact remains, that God creates things by speaking them into existence. He doesn't have hands, to Taylor fashion suits like Hugo Boss.
God is a spirit, He doesn't have a material body to manipulate the elements. He also never messed around waiting millions of years for pond scum to grow legs and become mammals. He created everything in it's fully formed mature state, i couldn't think of a more retarded method to make things than take millions of years to achieve minute progress. That really insults my intelligence

Did man just appear? Or did God create a shape of a man out of dust and breathed in his nostrils? Did a woman just appear or did God perform surgery on a man and fashioned the woman out of man's rib?

Did Jesus say He is coming soon, within a generation? 2,000 years and we are still waiting. Does that insult your intelligence?

 

[olgamc]

God commands something to come into existence and it must, as it has no choice other than to obey God command. You can play with words all you like but the fact remains, that God creates things by speaking them into existence. He doesn't have hands, to Taylor fashion suits like Hugo Boss.
God is a spirit, He doesn't have a material body to manipulate the elements. He also never messed around waiting millions of years for pond scum to grow legs and become mammals. He created everything in it's fully formed mature state, i couldn't think of a more retarded method to make things than take millions of years to achieve minute progress. That really insults my intelligence

But I agree with you that once God conceives of something, it is done, because it has no other choice. From that perspective, how old are you? Did you begin when God made up his mind to create you? Did He direct all of your ancestors to meet and fall in love at just the right time and generate just the right egg/sperm combination so that by the time your parents conceived you, the genetic makeup that gives you your handsome features was already in place? Or did you begin at conception? Or did you begin at birth? How old are you really, Dan1988, and how long did God take to make you?

I also agree that God doesn't have to wait. He can do everything instantly. And yet for some reason it appears that He doesn't do everything instantly. Sometimes He does, and sometimes He takes time. He could have raised Lazarus from where He was, He didn't even have to come. But He delayed for a few days, and then made the journey, and then took time to cry and talk to Mary and Martha.

 

[olgamc]

According to my neighbors.
According to someone far away.
According to someone 3 years old, alive and well.
According to someone 33 years old, alive and well, or not well.
According to someone, anywhere, any time, who is basically healthy........ anyone ..... anywhere .....
does not change anything at all.

True. I didn’t say it changes anything though.

God made an egg. My grandfather showed me how to tell if an egg is raw or cooked by spinning it. My parents explained to me why a cooked egg spins longer than a raw egg. Neither my grandfather nor my parents changed the fact that God made an egg or how He made an egg. But they changed my understanding of God’s creation. Is that wrong?

 

[Dan1988]

Did man just appear? Or did God create a shape of a man out of dust and breathed in his nostrils? Did a woman just appear or did God perform surgery on a man and fashioned the woman out of man's rib?
Did Jesus say He is coming soon, within a generation? 2,000 years and we are still waiting. Does that insult your intelligence?

Yes Adam just appeared instantly as a fully formed mature man, God spoke him into existence from the dust. Likewise He removed one of Adams ribs, not with hands of flesh but by His Word.

There are no contradictions in the Bible, if someone thinks they found one it just means they misunderstood the scripture.

Most people read the prophecies Jesus made in Matthew 24 as if they were going to be fulfilled in the same time period. But if one reads carefully they will find that the first part of Matthew 24 Jesus predicts what would happen in the time of the Disciples. That being the destruction of the temple and the sacking of Jerusalem, which did happen in AD70

But from Matthew 24:29-31 Jesus is speaking about His return, and it's a different time altogether.

The earlier prophecies were fulfilled in the generation of the Disciples, as AD70 was well within their generation