Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Psalm 27]

Depends on how you define Christian and evolution. Can you be an alcoholic and saved? Yes. Can you be a practicing alcoholic and still be saved? Yes - because we are being made perfect, but we are not perfect yet, and we still sin repeatedly. Can you be a practicing unrepentant alcoholic and seeing absolutely no problems with substance abuse and damage produced by your behaviour when you are drunk, and claim that you have the Spirit? Maybe, because maybe the Lord has already brought you to a saving faith but not yet revealed that you need to work on this area of your life. Can you be a Bible believing born-again follower of Christ, and at the same time think that substance abuse and the resulting behaviour is not sin? No. Because that goes against Ephesians 5:18.

In other words, you can be a Bible believing Christian and believe in aspects of evolution that do not violate the scripture. Creationists do believe in micro-evolution, though not everybody. So I think a better question is, can you believe that you descended from an ape and that Adam is not one man, and at the same time believe and accept the message of salvation in Romans 5:12-19?

Paul said 'drunkards will not inherit The Kingdom of God' (1 cor. 6:10)

 

[Dan1988]

The problem here is that some aspects of "the truth" you're supposedly referring to are disagreed with by many Christians in such a way that they have many different interpretations about those aspects. This diversity of interpretation implies that any one of us may be wrong on some points even when we feel confident about our beliefs.

I know most people don't have the courage to face the truth, so they go along with the crowd and hide behind unproven theories. Most people believe something, only because the crowd believes it, that's the sheep mentality. they just swallow what ever their teacher feeds them.

Universities are not places where we learn anything, they are just places of indoctrination. You're not allowed to question anything they feed you. They just feed you crap and you just need to regurgitate that crap at exam time to get your diploma.

If anyone questions the narrative, they are expelled for being disruptive. The only way to qualify is to swallow all the lies without question. Proper learning can only happen when the narrative ca be questioned and confirmed. All of the sciences force you to embrace the circular reasoning method, where you're forced to put your faith in an unproven theory and treat it as factual and never question it.

Universities are just places where false religion is forced upon the poor weak minded individuals. A wise person would never allow some smug smartass to force their false religion on them.

 

[Dan1988]

First-Order Logic is language. By "contradicts", do you mean it in the First-Order Logical sense?

i don't believe in the First-Order-Logic theory. I'm only interested the truth, proven facts and reality. Theories and hypothesis are for those who don't know the truth, so they use those thigs to fill in the gaps in their understanding. It's quite pathetic really

 

[Dan1988]

What truth do we know though? We know THAT God created fish. Do we know HOW God created fish?

Speak for yourself. I know you and all of science have no answers for anything. All you have is unproven theories, which some deluded old man dreamt up in an pathetic effort to make sense of his confusion. It's amazing how many lost people have embraced Darwin's deluded theory.

When a person denies the truth, then they desperately grab any wild theory to justify their rebellion and ignorance of the facts.

Unlike yourself, I don't need Darwin to tell me how fish were made. God already told me in the book of Genesis. He simply spoke them into existence, I'm sorry your deluded Darwin was never able to do anything like that. All he could offer were wild and impossible theories.

It's actually quite sad to see so many deny the truth of God and embrace a snake oil salesman's theory on everything.

 

[tonychanyt]

i don't believe in the First-Order-Logic theory.

Did you even read what I wrote? First-order logic is a language. I guess you are not familiar with that language. I prefer to argue with people who are.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I know most people don't have the courage to face the truth, so they go along with the crowd and hide behind unproven theories. Most people believe something, only because the crowd believes it, that's the sheep mentality. they just swallow what ever their teacher feeds them.

Universities are not places where we learn anything, they are just places of indoctrination. You're not allowed to question anything they feed you. They just feed you crap and you just need to regurgitate that crap at exam time to get your diploma.

If anyone questions the narrative, they are expelled for being disruptive. The only way to qualify is to swallow all the lies without question. Proper learning can only happen when the narrative ca be questioned and confirmed. All of the sciences force you to embrace the circular reasoning method, where you're forced to put your faith in an unproven theory and treat it as factual and never question it.

Universities are just places where false religion is forced upon the poor weak minded individuals. A wise person would never allow some smug smartass to force their false religion on them.

I appreciate your concern, but I never, ever, ever allow smug individuals to force their questionable perspectives on me. It just goes with the kind of degrees that I've earned, along with the fact that I question everything and nearly everyone. It's what Philosophers do.

And that's why, even after a secular education, I'm still a Christian.

I'm sorry to hear that you're upset with the diversity of views that are out there.

Which denomination of our Christian faith did you settle on, by the way?

 

[Joseph G]

Which then brings me to the next question. How do we correctly respond to people who insist that it is a literal account, and how do we ourselves decide which part is literal and which is not? Surely some parts are. The genealogies were reiterated so many times, that it is reasonable to think that Adam and Eve were literal people and not just an idea or a representation of humankind.

"...and how do we ourselves decide which part is literal and which is not?"

Above all, by utilizing the gift bestowed upon all true believers - the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And one of the chief methods His Spirit has taught us, through experience, is to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Pertinent to the question at hand:

Exodus 20:8-11 NIV

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns."

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

I doubt the Lord would switch up the meaning of the word 'day' from '24-hour period' in the former to 'epoch' in the latter.

 

[olgamc]

Did Darwin distinguish between the term genetic information from the term organism? Do you?

Darwin died shortly before the first principles of genetics were discovered, so he did not know about genetic information. But he did observe physical traits of organisms, which is essentially genetic information. Yes, I do distinguish between them. Do you? And why do you ask? You are losing me. You are asking questions but not stating your point, and I am terrible of reading between the lines.

 

[olgamc]

Paul said 'drunkards will not inherit The Kingdom of God' (1 cor. 6:10)

Yes exactly. You can't claim to be a Christian and know this verse and continue to live in unrepentant alcoholism. But can you be an alcoholic and be saved? Absolutely. I sin every day in various ways and yet I am saved. Do you not sin?

 

[olgamc]

"...and how do we ourselves decide which part is literal and which is not?"

Above all, by utilizing the gift bestowed upon all true believers - the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And one of the chief methods His Spirit has taught us, through experience, is to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Pertinent to the question at hand:

Exodus 20:8-11 NIV

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns."

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

I doubt the Lord would switch up the meaning of the word 'day' from '24-hour period' in the former to 'epoch' in the latter.

Leviticus 25:4. In that verse, a Sabbath for the land is calculated in years.
Genesis 1:5 - yom means a period of daylight, understood by Jews as always being 12 hours
Genesis 1:14 - yom means a 24 hours time as governed by the sun
Genesis 2:4 - yom represents the whole creation week, which is 6 yoms.

 

[olgamc]

Speak for yourself. I know you and all of science have no answers for anything. All you have is unproven theories, which some deluded old man dreamt up in an pathetic effort to make sense of his confusion. It's amazing how many lost people have embraced Darwin's deluded theory.

When a person denies the truth, then they desperately grab any wild theory to justify their rebellion and ignorance of the facts.

Unlike yourself, I don't need Darwin to tell me how fish were made. God already told me in the book of Genesis. He simply spoke them into existence, I'm sorry your deluded Darwin was never able to do anything like that. All he could offer were wild and impossible theories.

It's actually quite sad to see so many deny the truth of God and embrace a snake oil salesman's theory on everything.

You know me and all of science have no answers for anything. All I have is unproven theories. I have embraced Darwin's theory.

You know the truth, but every one of those statements is a lie.

 

[olgamc]

I know most people don't have the courage to face the truth, so they go along with the crowd and hide behind unproven theories. Most people believe something, only because the crowd believes it, that's the sheep mentality. they just swallow what ever their teacher feeds them.

Universities are not places where we learn anything, they are just places of indoctrination. You're not allowed to question anything they feed you. They just feed you crap and you just need to regurgitate that crap at exam time to get your diploma.

If anyone questions the narrative, they are expelled for being disruptive. The only way to qualify is to swallow all the lies without question. Proper learning can only happen when the narrative ca be questioned and confirmed. All of the sciences force you to embrace the circular reasoning method, where you're forced to put your faith in an unproven theory and treat it as factual and never question it.

Universities are just places where false religion is forced upon the poor weak minded individuals. A wise person would never allow some smug smartass to force their false religion on them.

Interesting perspective. I suddenly feel very fortunate that I didn't go to a North American university, and grateful to have maintained my God-given ability to reason and to ask questions. Questions like I wonder how Dan1988 knows that God just spoke and fish appeared, when Genesis 1:21 says "created" or "fashioned".

 

[Joseph G]

Leviticus 25:4. In that verse, a Sabbath for the land is calculated in years.

If this application were applicable to the Genesis day, then why didn't the Pharisees follow Jesus around relentlessly dogging Him about breaking the Sabbath for an entire year?

Genesis 1:5 - yom means a period of daylight, understood by Jews as always being 12 hours

This can't be the interpretation either because God clearly illuminates the definition of each day with "and there was morning and there was night."

Genesis 1:14 - yom means a 24 hours time as governed by the sun

Bingo.

Genesis 2:4 - yom represents the whole creation week, which is 6 yoms.

Yes - 6 literal 24-hour days.

 

[olgamc]

If this application were applicable to the Genesis day, then why didn't the Pharisees follow Jesus around relentlessly dogging Him about breaking the Sabbath for an entire year?

This can't be the interpretation either because God clearly illuminates the definition of each day with "and there was morning and there was night."

Bingo.

Yes - 6 literal 24-hour days.

My point is that yom means different things in different contexts, and so does the length of Sabbath.

God commanded people to observe a 24 hour sabbath, while he commanded the land to observe a 1 year sabbath. There is also the issue of how long is God's sabbath. Was it 24 hours? Or is it still continuing to this day? Is the 7th day even finished? Every day was finished with "there was evening and there was morning", except for the 7th day - why?

Genesis 1:5 - you missed my point. "And God called the light day" - here the word day (yom) is 12 hours. "And there was evening and morning ... day 1" - here the word day (yom) indicates a period that includes both light and darkness, which you yourself say is 24 hours. So in the same verse the same word changes meaning.

So when you say prove scripture by scripture, I agree with you, but in this case it seems that scripture proves that the same word can mean different time periods.

You also said that we discern things by the Spirit. I wholeheartedly agree. My young earth friends are so adamant that they know and there can't be any other way, but the Spirit always brings to my mind 2 Timothy 2:23-26 and Job 38. The Spirit tells me - they are arguing about things they don't understand. Which is why I like to ask questions like "how do you know?" Bottom line is, I don't, you don't, Darwin doesn't, creation ministry doesn't, neither of us humans knows HOW God made the world. We weren't there.

At least scientists accept that they don't know everything, and they are willing to study and learn and correct their understanding as more evidence is discovered. But our own brothers and sisters, everyone who claims they know every detail of creation, claim they don't even need to learn because they know more than scientists. We don't know more - we know something that scientists don't, and they know something that we don't. We need each other. We were given the commands to be salt and light, as well as to take good care of the earth. We can't take good care of God's creation if we don't grow in understanding of how it works. And we can't be salt and light if we ignore the creation story. Just like scientists shouldn't deny God, we shouldn't deny science or claim that mainstream science is faulty, especially if it is not our area of expertise, but we can and should work to reconcile Biblical account with physical evidence.

 

[BeyondET]

"...and how do we ourselves decide which part is literal and which is not?"

Above all, by utilizing the gift bestowed upon all true believers - the revelation of the Holy Spirit. And one of the chief methods His Spirit has taught us, through experience, is to interpret Scripture with Scripture. Pertinent to the question at hand:

Exodus 20:8-11 NIV

“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns."

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

I doubt the Lord would switch up the meaning of the word 'day' from '24-hour period' in the former to 'epoch' in the latter.

So when the earth was being created it was spinning 1,000 miles an hour? Could of been .0001 miles an hour.

A day on Venus certainly isn't 24 hours long, yes even a day can mean different lengths. A galactic tic is a way long of a day.

 

[BeyondET]

Interesting perspective. I suddenly feel very fortunate that I didn't go to a North American university, and grateful to have maintained my God-given ability to reason and to ask questions. Questions like I wonder how Dan1988 knows that God just spoke and fish appeared, when Genesis 1:21 says "created" or "fashioned".

Or let the earth bring forth

 

[BeyondET]

If this application were applicable to the Genesis day, then why didn't the Pharisees follow Jesus around relentlessly dogging Him about breaking the Sabbath for an entire year?

This can't be the interpretation either because God clearly illuminates the definition of each day with "and there was morning and there was night."

Bingo.

Yes - 6 literal 24-hour days.

How many years was Jesus well known?

It is not "and there was morning and there was night" but evening and morning, dusk and dawn.

How many of the lights in the firmament do you know how to gauge the signs, seasons, days, years? Is it more than four or less than?

Gen 1
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

 

[davetaff]

Hi for myself it's jest a question of believing Gods word When he says he created the heaven's and the earth then that's what he did it dose not need to be interpreted it jest needs to be believed.
If we have to interpret and proove it then we don't believe it do we really need to learn ancient languages to know what God wants us to know usually those who use ancient languages only use it so they can change the meaning of the words as we have them in English.
I believe the God who created the heaven and earth is more than caperble of producing a book as he wants it to be all we have to do is believe what it says.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[Joseph G]

My point is that yom means different things in different contexts, and so does the length of Sabbath.

Agreed.

God commanded people to observe a 24 hour sabbath, while he commanded the land to observe a 1 year sabbath.

Right, which is why I agree there is at least two different applications of the word 'yom'.

There is also the issue of how long is God's sabbath. Was it 24 hours?

I personally think so, but agree it isn't clearly defined in length as the prior days were.

Or is it still continuing to this day? Is the 7th day even finished? Every day was finished with "there was evening and there was morning", except for the 7th day - why?

I believe it was finished, yes. He rested for a period, however long, and then resumed creating. Why do I believe so? Because it's observable in human reproduction - throughout all of human history - correctly referred to as pro-creation.

Consider the arrival of your first child. I remember feeding him in the middle of the night and pondering just who he is. Yes, he's a product of my and his mother's genes - all his physical traits predetermined in the womb.

But this little fella is something more. His inner being is there - and also largely predetermined. His unique personality (strengths and weaknesses), his personal likes and dislikes, his special talents, what subjects he would excel at, all predispositions are all there. And I realized, I myself had absolutely NOTHING to do with creating all of that. This little man's spirit already existed in the mind of God before he was even knit in the womb. I know this not just because of what is obvious to my two eyes in his animated being, but because the Word I stake my life on says so. Yes, the literal, inerrant Word of God.

Due to this, I knew I had an obligation to teach him, as he grew, just who he is - a unique CREATION made in the image of God - with a special purpose. And guide Him to knowing just Who that God is and how to become eternally united to Him.

I knew that soon enough, he would have a godless world competing to convince him that he was nothing more than a glorified amoeba destined to struggle to survive amongst other amoebas - with nothing to look forward to but clinging to a temporal existence for all he was worth, in quiet desperation, distracting himself with entertainment to avoid the meaninglessness of it all, destined for the grave in an eternal state of non-existence - the only reason for having existed at all to perpetuate a species of similarly doomed amoebas. Oh, and to 'protect' the planet along the way.

THAT is the best hope of evolutionary theory... A religion of death. No thanks.

Every person desperately needs to know that there is a reason that they exist, that they have a purpose to fill, and how to find it - that is OUR purpose once we have been taught.

Darwinian theory, as you know, is only one of a myriad of worldly preoccupations designed to thwart our purpose. There is no compromising with our, and His, enemy. Pray for them and love them, yes, yoke with them in delusion, no.

Which takes me back to the OP - 'can we be Christian and believe in evolution?' Again I say, I suppose so. But why? Why partner a religion of life with a religion of death? How can one's gospel message be seriously considered when coupled with godless lies?

As an aside and before you repeat yourself, I also would request the writer of the OP clarify his subject line by clearly defining what he means by 'evolution'. I just hit the ground running assuming he meant 'Darwinian macro survival of the fittest origin of species evolution. Isn't that what 99% of the media, academia, scientific community and online forums are talking about?

While clarifying, I would add the request to define the word 'Christian'. Might clear up other pre-suppositions.

Genesis 1:5 - you missed my point. "And God called the light day" - here the word day (yom) is 12 hours. "And there was evening and morning ... day 1" - here the word day (yom) indicates a period that includes both light and darkness, which you yourself say is 24 hours. So in the same verse the same word changes meaning.

I'm not understanding. Why does the word 'yom' change here? Aren't 12 and 24 interpretations of the same word?

So when you say prove scripture by scripture, I agree with you, but in this case it seems that scripture proves that the same word can mean different time periods.

So again, one has to appeal to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For me personally, the question of literal 24 hour days was resolved by the fact that the Spirit gave me peace about it. And I've maintained that peace for 30 years now. He did it the same way He gave me peace about the problem of evil, the reality of an eternal Hell for the unbeliever, whether you can lose your salvation, and a hundred other troublesome doctrines - by teaching me to cling to a simple maxim:

God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

It's the whole reason I can put faith in other more precious Scriptures, like "I will never leave you nor forsake you." My life, here and eternally, is utterly dependent on Him telling the truth in ALL of Scripture.

You also said that we discern things by the Spirit. I wholeheartedly agree. My young earth friends are so adamant that they know and there can't be any other way, but the Spirit always brings to my mind 2 Timothy 2:23-26 and Job 38. The Spirit tells me - they are arguing about things they don't understand. Which is why I like to ask questions like "how do you know?" Bottom line is, I don't, you don't, Darwin doesn't, creation ministry doesn't, neither of us humans knows HOW God made the world. We weren't there.

Yes we do, He spoke it into existence. And we didn't have to be there. We have the Holy Spirit in us Who WAS there.

At least scientists accept that they don't know everything,

Pardon my incredulity, but this is not true for all scientists. For the ones disciplined to adhere to the first law of good science - preach only what is observable and repeatable - yes.

Darwinian evolutionists, though, take a dollop of fact and create a pound of fantasy - all decidedly unobservable. And declare it as fact. And when proven wrong, no they don't own up to it, they just pivot to some other tack and carry on with other more bizarre theories.

Example: Remember Piltdown Man? Every evolutionist danced for joy and declared God is dead - until the hoax was revealed. Were there any mea culpas? Hardly. A period of stunned silence and then carrying on without comment. Standard behavior.

and they are willing to study and learn and correct their understanding as more evidence is discovered.

Great. Then stop declaring a theory as fact while still studying and learning. And get it the heck out of our schools.

But our own brothers and sisters, everyone who claims they know every detail of creation, claim they don't even need to learn because they know more than scientists.

More than the dishonest scientists - absolutely.

But you seem to make some erroneous assumptions about fellow believers - perhaps from your encounters to date. For myself, I certainly don't know every detail of creation. And I am constantly learning from science. I learned from you details about the fruit fly that I didn't know - and appreciated it. I am constantly fascinated by all facets of creation and perpetually curious.

It's just that my conclusions from what I observe and learn - that they are evidence of a brilliant creative Intelligence - is at avowed odds with the one who gazes at the same evidences and credits an unknowing, unknowable inanimate something as its ultimate source. In that regard, heck yes, I defer to Holy Scripture over science.

We don't know more - we know something that scientists don't, and they know something that we don't. We need each other.

Yep - for the element from each group who are honest with themselves and others. The remainder need our prayers.

We were given the commands to be salt and light, as well as to take good care of the earth. We can't take good care of God's creation if we don't grow in understanding of how it works. And we can't be salt and light if we ignore the creation story.

Being salt and light includes telling the truth - not compromising with a fantasy that is actively at enmity with God.

Weighing all evidence and standing on God's Word as the final authority on creation is not ignoring it.

Just like scientists shouldn't deny God, we shouldn't deny science or claim that mainstream science is faulty, especially if it is not our area of expertise, but we can and should work to reconcile Biblical account with physical evidence.

As long as our overarching goal is to lead others to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ - I wholeheartedly agree!

 

[tonychanyt]

Yes, I do distinguish between them. Do you?

Yes.

So what is the difference between the organism and the genetic information? Which is the agent that does the work? Which is active and which is passive?