Can We Clarify the Trinity?

[Erik Nelson]

"I agree with God the Son being from eternity past - and being fully God - however in all of eternity past - prior to creating a spec of matter - did the Father always refer to Him as "Son"?? I would not know about that. It may be that they only use such human-family terms for our benefit."

So the salient point is "before creation" of anything ... so then "without reference to saving anything".. a time for which we have no record. Which is why I say it is unknown.



Not in the quote I show from it above. Do you have one?



You are restating your position. God the Son is from eternity past .. but what was His "role" before creation? Do you have a quote? There is not "begotten in eternity" in the Bible.



Another statement for which there is no text.



God is Love - God does not send (as in force) someone to die that He loves.




We would expect that of the family role they describe themselves in now - but what about before creation?






But does not indicate that He does so without the consent of the Son or even at the insistence of the Son. In Isaiah 53 it appears that the Son had this as His plan.




Which would be true in either case.

Nobody knows about that -- that would (hypothetically) be "Genesis Zero" prior to the very first verse of the Bible

all "specs of matter" were created in Genesis 1:1, when God created the heavens & earth [by His Word]

but the Son was begotten as the Son, the "generation" of the Word by the Father is defined as "begetting"

the human Father-Son analogy is never absent

and Biblical sons are always obedient to their Father's authority

 

[Monksailor]

The way I regard it for my simplistic mind is that all of creation as we know it is comprised of elements of the elemental chart or periodic table, and probably more from realms we have not explored. But all of that peripheral aside, here on earth every or most every element can exist in three states: gaseous, liquid, or frozen, if it were possible to reach the temps to cause such; just like water. The Creator exists in three entities, too. Water is the identical set of molecule combination-2 of H and 1 of O-(H2O) in all three states. It can be said that God has three "states," also, without bogging down into tons of headiness (loftiness?)

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree. In discussing with atheists, I ask: 'Are you open to sharing with me why you are an atheist and are you open to my sharing with you why I'm not an atheist?'

I'm currently gaining much benefit from reading Norman L Geisler & Frank Turek 2004. I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books.

Oz

Is Geisler still a Thomist? Last I checked, some years ago now, he was.

 

[OzSpen]

Is Geisler still a Thomist? Last I checked, some years ago now, he was.

Chevy,

Norman Geisler went home to be with the Lord on 1 July 2019 at the age of 86. Ravi Zacharias presented the eulogy.

Norman G gained much wisdom from Thomas Aquinas in his doctoral studies. To my knowledge he continued to acknowledge that influence. His PhD in philosophy was from Loyola University.

Of late, I've been reading some chunks from Geisler's magnum opus, 4 vols of Systematic Theology. What a giant in theology and apologetics!

Oz

 

[chevyontheriver]

Chevy,

Norman Geisler went home to be with the Lord on 1 July 2019 at the age of 86. Ravi Zacharias presented the eulogy.

Norman G gained much wisdom from Thomas Aquinas in his doctoral studies. To my knowledge he continued to acknowledge that influence. His PhD in philosophy was from Loyola University.

Of late, I've been reading some chunks from Geisler's magnum opus, 4 vols of Systematic Theology. What a giant in theology and apologetics!

Oz

So he still is a Thomist then. Good to hear from you.

 

[OzSpen]

So he still is a Thomist then. Good to hear from you.

chevy,

You might like to read these articles by or about Norman Geisler and Thomism:

• Does Thomism Lead to Catholicism? – NORMAN GEISLER
• Thomism – NORMAN GEISLER
• Norman Geisler’s Neo-Thomistic Apologetics -- By: Richard A. Purdy

• Evangelical Exodus: Evangelical Seminarians and Their Paths to Rome

Oz

 

[chevyontheriver]

chevy,

You might like to read these articles by or about Norman Geisler and Thomism:

• Does Thomism Lead to Catholicism? – NORMAN GEISLER
• Thomism – NORMAN GEISLER
• Norman Geisler’s Neo-Thomistic Apologetics -- By: Richard A. Purdy

• Evangelical Exodus: Evangelical Seminarians and Their Paths to Rome

Oz

Thanks much for the articles. I associate Thomism as the ability to think clearly. Not that it always results in people becoming Catholic. Although it sounds like there is a lot of that at SES. I better not say any more in the Baptist forum.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Out of all the Christian doctrines, the Trinity is the one I have the least amount of answers for. God is one, but God is clearly three separate Persons. How do you all explain this when asked by atheists or the simply curious?

Focus on the Deity of Jesus and His Cross, as only once saved can they understand the concept of Trinity!

 

[OzSpen]

Focus on the Deity of Jesus and His Cross, as only once saved can they understand the concept of Trinity!

YeshuaFan,

I have found the Bible gives more than adequate information to understand the Trinity. I have gathered this information in 2 expositions:

1. Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?

2. How to understand three persons in the Trinity

I consider there is adequate teaching in Scripture to demonstrate the Trinity as three persons (each God) in the one Godhead.

Oz

 

[YeshuaFan]

YeshuaFan,

I have found the Bible gives more than adequate information to understand the Trinity. I have gathered this information in 2 expositions:

1. Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?

2. How to understand three persons in the Trinity

I consider there is adequate teaching in Scripture to demonstrate the Trinity as three persons (each God) in the one Godhead.

Oz

Yes, but the unsaved cannot discern that truth, as the scriptures would make little sense to them!

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, but the unsaved cannot discern that truth, as the scriptures would make little sense to them!

YF.

I agree. I don't consider explanations of the Trinity are for unChristians, those new to the faith, or those who have not been taught the doctrine of God.

Here in Australia I have never heard a preacher teach on the Trinity. I'm not sure many of them even want to understand this doctrine. That's what influenced me to write the 2 articles:

1. Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?

2. How to understand three persons in the Trinity.

Oz

 

[YeshuaFan]

YF.

I agree. I don't consider explanations of the Trinity are for unChristians, those new to the faith, or those who have not been taught the doctrine of God.

Here in Australia I have never heard a preacher teach on the Trinity. I'm not sure many of them even want to understand this doctrine. That's what influenced me to write the 2 articles:

1. Is the Trinity taught in the Bible?

2. How to understand three persons in the Trinity.

Oz

That is why the Lord commands us to preach and teach on the Gospel itself, as Trinity comes after salvation!
Also, when talking to Muslims, jews, JW etc, focus on Jesus and not the trinity!

 

[Monksailor]

I have shared this before here on the Trinity and in spite of those deep, heady, seemingly arrogant, and boringly detailed responses I will probably get again, I will share it again.

Just about, if not every, element on the periodical table (Chemistry chart of all of our known elements, lightest to heaviest) which are what God used to create everything, have THREE separate states or exist in three different characteristics: solid/frozen, liquid/melted, and gas/evaporated. Water, although it is a combination of Hydrogen and Oxygen, is the usually the most practical example. Though each state or characteristic is uniquely different from each other, molecularity, they are identical; two atoms of Hydrogen attached to an atom of Oxygen, but remember, each element, or most are singularly capable of such states. (The temperatures for the states varies significantly for each element and some are not capable naturally existing on our tiny little dot of God's creation but a lot CAN be artificially achieved through super cooling or heating in a lab, welding, or other such environment.)

Of course this is no theological explanation. I just made the association somewhere along the way and thought that it is neat that Gad made His building blocks capable of also existing in three separate states, yet the same.

 

[Monksailor]

Yeah, I remember this being posted right after I posted what I just said here on another thread.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I have shared this before here on the Trinity and in spite of those deep, heady, seemingly arrogant, and boringly detailed responses I will probably get again, I will share it again.

Just about, if not every, element on the periodical table (Chemistry chart of all of our known elements, lightest to heaviest) which are what God used to create everything, have THREE separate states or exist in three different characteristics: solid/frozen, liquid/melted, and gas/evaporated. Water, although it is a combination of Hydrogen and Oxygen, is the usually the most practical example. Though each state or characteristic is uniquely different from each other, molecularity, they are identical; two atoms of Hydrogen attached to an atom of Oxygen, but remember, each element, or most are singularly capable of such states. (The temperatures for the states varies significantly for each element and some are not capable naturally existing on our tiny little dot of God's creation but a lot CAN be artificially achieved through super cooling or heating in a lab, welding, or other such environment.)

Of course this is no theological explanation. I just made the association somewhere along the way and thought that it is neat that Gad made His building blocks capable of also existing in three separate states, yet the same.

What is interesting is that the concept of God being a Trinity was established in both the OT and even Quran, as OT had God, Angel of the Lord, and Spirit, while Islam had a satanic version of Allah, Quran and Spirit of Allah!

 

[OzSpen]

What is interesting is that the concept of God being a Trinity was established in both the OT and even Quran, as OT had God, Angel of the Lord, and Spirit, while Islam had a satanic version of Allah, Quran and Spirit of Allah!

YF,

I consider you're drawing a long bow by considering there is a Trinity in Islam.

Several verses in the Qur'an counter that view by criticising the Trinity. See Q. 5:116 which states, 'O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say to the people, ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides God?' So the Qur'an rejects the triad of God, Jesus, and mother Mary.

The Qur'an denies: (1) God is 'three', and (2) Jesus is God's Son as this verse states:

'O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.' (Q. 4:171).​

There are other Qur'anic verses which state or imply that calling Christ God’s son is unbelief and that worshiping Christ as a lord is associationism (see Q. 9:30-31 and also Q. 2:116, 5:73, 5:75).

Oz

 

[YeshuaFan]

YF,

I consider you're drawing a long bow by considering there is a Trinity in Islam.

Several verses in the Qur'an counter that view by criticising the Trinity. See Q. 5:116 which states, 'O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say to the people, ‘Worship me and my mother as two gods besides God?' So the Qur'an rejects the triad of God, Jesus, and mother Mary.

The Qur'an denies: (1) God is 'three', and (2) Jesus is God's Son as this verse states:

'O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.' (Q. 4:171).​

There are other Qur'anic verses which state or imply that calling Christ God’s son is unbelief and that worshiping Christ as a lord is associationism (see Q. 9:30-31 and also Q. 2:116, 5:73, 5:75).

Oz

Yes, but even the Koran has the Spirit of Allah, who seems to be with Allah, part of Him, and yet distinct, and calls Jesus the Word of Allah and a Spirit, so he existed before with Allah before birth!

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, but even the Koran has the Spirit of Allah, who seems to be with Allah, part of Him, and yet distinct, and calls Jesus the Word of Allah and a Spirit, so he existed before with Allah before birth!

In Islam, Allah did not have a Son

Qur'an 17:111 states, 'And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification."'

 

[concretecamper]

Out of all the Christian doctrines, the Trinity is the one I have the least amount of answers for. God is one, but God is clearly three separate Persons. How do you all explain this when asked by atheists or the simply curious?

Athanasius Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Out of all the Christian doctrines, the Trinity is the one I have the least amount of answers for. God is one, but God is clearly three separate Persons. How do you all explain this when asked by atheists or the simply curious?

The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity by Robert Bowman, Jr.