Can We Clarify the Trinity?

Dave-W

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Well, Jews are pagans so I'm not too interested in that aspect. It's possible they don't understand the Trinity and are hostile to it. As for where we find it in scripture...I guess we find it in logic.
The Jews that were excluded from the First Nicean conference (325 ad) were Trinity-believing New covenant Jews. It was them the langage was supposed to be hostile against, along with the traditional Jews who were against the christian church. It would keep out any honest seekers that wanted to seriously consider the claims of the New Testament. In other words it was anti-evangelical. They wanted no more Jewish believers.
 
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Dave-W

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I agree. The ethnic Israelites reject the Messiah and cling to the weak and beggarly elements of the Mosaic covenant of works which, we are told in Gal. 3, was only to point us to Christ. Since they failed to see the purpose of that covenant they are not believers or followers of God. At all.
But what about the Nazoreans of the late 3rd and early 4th centuries? Eusubius agreed that their doctrine was Orthodox but since they still lived as Jews they were to be condemned.
 
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Poor Beggar

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The Jews that were excluded from the First Nicean conference (325 ad) were Trinity-believing New covenant Jews. It was them the langage was supposed to be hostile against, along with the traditional Jews who were against the christian church. It would keep out any honest seekers that wanted to seriously consider the claims of the New Testament. In other words it was anti-evangelical. They wanted no more Jewish believers.
I'll have to look into this. I didn't know it.
 
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Poor Beggar

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But what about the Nazoreans of the late 3rd and early 4th centuries? Eusubius agreed that their doctrine was Orthodox but since they still lived as Jews they were to be condemned.
Was he suggesting they were severed from Christ the way Paul said they would be? I don't know so I'm really asking.
 
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JM

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The Jews that were excluded from the First Nicean conference (325 ad) were Trinity-believing New covenant Jews. It was them the langage was supposed to be hostile against, along with the traditional Jews who were against the christian church. It would keep out any honest seekers that wanted to seriously consider the claims of the New Testament. In other words it was anti-evangelical. They wanted no more Jewish believers.

That’s more conjecture than historical fact. The Arians believed the Son was created and everything else in the physical world was created by the Son. That denies the eternal nature of Jesus Christ. Jesus is believed by Christians to be homoousian (ὁμοούσιος) or of the same being as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Those that reject this reject Christianity.
 
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Dave-W

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No. He said they were not true Christians. But he also said they believed all the right things. Their baptisms and communion and preaching were all valid. But because the way they lived made them look Jewish - they had to all be condemned to hell.
 
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Dave-W

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That’s more conjecture than historical fact. The Arians believed the Son was created and everything else in the physical world was created by the Son. That denies the eternal nature of Jesus Christ. Jesus is believed by Christians to be homoousian (ὁμοούσιος) or of the same being as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Those that reject this reject Christianity.
You cannot see the road blocks unless you look at the text from Jewish eyes. Almost every Jewish believer I have talked to (a good number) have all said the same thing. It is clearly there. The conclusion is correct but the way it is expressed is very problematic.
 
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Poor Beggar

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An old creed worth reading.

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the universal faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the universal faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.
The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.
Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.
But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.
He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.
Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.
He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the universal faith one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully.
It's interesting how the faith creed at the end contains the same elements Peter preached to Cornelius' household. I've always felt that's the best summary in the whole NT.
 
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Poor Beggar

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No. He said they were not true Christians. But he also said they believed all the right things. Their baptisms and communion and preaching were all valid. But because the way they lived made them look Jewish - they had to all be condemned to hell.
That's kind of what Paul was getting at. If your motives are to do these things to remain right with God.
 
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JM

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But what about the Nazoreans of the late 3rd and early 4th centuries? Eusubius agreed that their doctrine was Orthodox but since they still lived as Jews they were to be condemned.

I would like to see the quote please.

A fun and easy way to learn about the Church in the East and how, for politcal reasons which had nothing to do with the Jews, they became a separated body have a listen to Lost: History of the Christian Church.
 
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Dave-W

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I will have to look later on the Eusubius quote. Stuff keeps moving around on the internet.

Here is a summary of his background: http://www.elijahnet.net/EUSEBIUS Ecclesiastical.html

In the mean time I found this. I am not a huge fan of Kinzer, but appreciate his scholarship. You can skip over the initial rumblings since they really have little to do with this discussion. About a quarter of the way down the article you will find a section called "The Nicean Problems." Start there.

http://www.kesherjournal.com/index....iving-god-&catid=88888897:issue-24&Itemid=430
 
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JM

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You cannot see the road blocks unless you look at the text from Jewish eyes. Almost every Jewish believer I have talked to (a good number) have all said the same thing. It is clearly there. The conclusion is correct but the way it is expressed is very problematic.

I don't see the road blocks Ghandi had with Christianity either. The Jewish perspective is flawed, false and Christ's coming changed everything. The Jews couldn't give up their unbelieving "eyes." I have no wish to join them in their unbelief.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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I will have to look later on the Eusubius quote. Stuff keeps moving around on the internet.

Here is a summary of his background: http://www.elijahnet.net/EUSEBIUS Ecclesiastical.html

In the mean time I found this. I am not a huge fan of Kinzer, but appreciate his scholarship. You can skip over the initial rumblings since they really have little to do with this discussion. About a quarter of the way down the article you will find a section called "The Nicean Problems." Start there.

http://www.kesherjournal.com/index....iving-god-&catid=88888897:issue-24&Itemid=430

The perceived “anti-Jewish tenor” and “Christian supersessionism” is well overstated. It really is a matter of type (old Mosaic covenant) being fulfilled in the Christ. All things are new. Instead of ethnic customs, traditions and claims, the old Jewish believers had to open up to the world.

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” Rom. 4

I don't get how people like to dress up their faith with Hebrewisms, Jewish clothes and customs, as if that makes it more authentic of a believer. It doesn't make your faith real or bring you closer to Jesus Christ, only the Holy Spirit through the word of God does that.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Poor Beggar

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The perceived “anti-Jewish tenor” and “Christian supersessionism” is well overstated. It really is a matter of type (old Mosaic covenant) being fulfilled in the Christ. All things are new. Instead of ethnic customs, traditions and claims, the old Jewish believers had to open up to the world.

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” Rom. 4

I don't get how people like to dress up their faith with Hebrewisms, Jewish clothes and customs, as if that makes it more authentic of a believer. It doesn't make your faith real or bring you closer to Jesus Christ, only the Holy Spirit through the word of God does that.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
The carnal mind likes tangibles.
 
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BobRyan

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"Subordinationism??" they are ontologically equal - but they have agreed to take on roles that show a hierarchy

You seem to be making the point that God the Son was not created and is fully God. I don't dispute that.

Agreed, but would stress the eternal generation of the Son.
Yours in the Lord,
jm

PS: I believe whole heartly in the Holy Trinity...I even named my daughter Trinity!

I agree with God the Son being from eternity past - and being fully God - however in all of eternity past - prior to creating a spec of matter - did the Father always refer to Him as "Son"?? I would not know about that. It may be that they only use such human-family terms for our benefit.
 
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mikedsjr

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You have to. You can't think about things without philosophizing.
I don't know all the philosophical understandings of what people claim a person is. To an extent philosophying ends up in mysticism and which then creates falls theologies. But sure, there is a worldview philosophy that each person has and grounds their theology, or makes their theology like jello.
 
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JM

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"Subordinationism??" they are ontologically equal - but they have agreed to take on roles that show a hierarchy

You seem to be making the point that God the Son was not created and is fully God. I don't dispute that.



I agree with God the Son being from eternity past - and being fully God - however in all of eternity past - prior to creating a spec of matter - did the Father always refer to Him as "Son"?? I would not know about that. It may be that they only use such human-family terms for our benefit.

I would say God is not subject to time so it's a anthropomorphic distinction, an ontological distinction we use to understand the biblical revelation. We know that in eternity past a covenant to save sinners was made within the Godhead...we know certain elements of that covenant and how it was opened to us in time...but I'm not sure it is safe to speculate beyond what has been revealed.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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98cwitr

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God's Word is the Holy Spirit. The Hebrew word for spirit is 'ruach', which means 'breath'.

I thought the same thing until having this talk with some other CF Members...then this pretty much solidified, for me at least, that Jesus Christ is the Word of God:

Revelation 17:14
They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Revelation 19:11-14New International Version (NIV)

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Christ is the Word.
 
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Poor Beggar

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So at this point I'm leaning towards the paper JM submitted as making the most sense when I "need" to adopt a working view. From a purely theological standpoint I'm sort of going with the funny video because it really drove home that any mental framework is going to somewhat "trap" God. That's where I'm at currently.
 
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