I would say a christian can believe in "Ultimate reconciliation". In my opinion
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All these theories are reasonable, but in the end all that matters is what God actually did decide to do, and for that we have the testimony of the Bible. IOW, all the speculation is fun but most of it is impossible.
Mostly depends upon 'which' bible you read then, doesn't it? That's why more scholarly ones, not even having the word 'eternal' in them regarding 'judgment of any kind'...kind of kink the orthodox 'rigidly straight' line of indoctrination.
How come I've never seen anyone here, ever refute the 'numerous' translations 'of the bible' which do so?
That's what God wants. But that is not Universalism. Only those who obey the Gospel will be saved. The rest will be damned.So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?
Thank you for the URL. I went there and it looked pretty lengthy. So I first scanned it quickly, reading many names of people and books with which I am already familiar with, having studied this subject since my first exposure in the mid 70's. For the first 10 years I only hoped it was true. Since then I can only believe there is no other truth than God's 'plan' to ultimately save his beloved creation.A good read on "eternal" not being "forever": https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/sometimes-eternal-isnt-forever/
Thank you for the URL. I went there and it looked pretty lengthy. So I first scanned it quickly, reading many names of people and books with which I am already familiar with, having studied this subject since my first exposure in the mid 70's. For the first 10 years I only hoped it was true. Since then I can only believe there is no other truth than God's 'plan' to ultimately save his beloved creation.
St Isaac the Syrian said:God chastises with love, not for the sake of revenge—far be it!—but in seeking to make whole his image. And he does not harbour wrath until such time as correction is no longer possible, for he does not seek vengeance for himself. This is the aim of love. Love’s chastisement is for correction, but does not aim at retribution. … The man who chooses to consider God as avenger, presuming that in this manner he bears witness to His justice, the same accuses Him of being bereft of goodness. Far be it that vengeance could ever be found in that Fountain of love and Ocean brimming with goodness!
It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?
I can only agree with your thinking here. Other than I might add that the dividing line has to include how one sees God, and not just hell. Especially since the hell of orthodoxy isn't even represented accurately here in 'overly quoted'...mis-translations IMO.
Ultimately, I think the dividing line to how one thinks about this subject is dependent upon how one sees the nature of "hell". If hell is a state of punishment inflicted upon sinners by an angered deity, then there is no conflict, for we need not bother ourselves with the question of whether or not God "loves" these forever-damned sinners; clearly this God does not, or at the very least, this God loves God's own sense of self-justification more than those whom God has created.
But what of those who've never heard 'the only name that is named whereby one may be saved' let alone the orthodox gospel of eternal 'turn or burn' torture? Even orthodoxy wiggles room or justifies 'their demise' (babies, retarded, ect.) with unbiblical views. Which really does show that even their hearts don't believe their 'core' belief.On the other hand, if one believes that "hell" is the self-inflicted consequence of rebellion, self-will, etc., then we can easily affirm that "yes", God does indeed love those that find themselves there. God's good plans in creation will not be left unfinished; God will not be opposed. Though it takes an eternities of eternities, the hardest heart will eventually be softened (through the wooing of the Spirit and the pains of purgation, "love's chastisement" in St. Isaac's words) and God will be "all in all":
If 'eternal death/eternal life' is the only alternative eternally, as orthodoxy would have one believe, then eternal hell epitomizes eternal death and scripture remains a lie.However, if we acknowledge this, we must also recognize the clear biblical teaching that hell itself will eventually be swallowed up in Christ's victory.
Universalism is NOT "desiring all people to be saved - which is godly."
Universalism is believing all people will be saved regardless of what they do or believe in this life.
Believing Jesus is irrelevant, hell does not exist, sin is an illusion, evil is simply a negative attitude. god is all love, not just.
Wouldn't the scriptures say something other than what is reported of Jesus teaching about salvation if Universalism was true?It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?
Ouch! I think you misread Geralt's remarks Brother. They were describing what Universalism teaches. Not stating what they believe. Maybe read their post again?And this is just a lie from the pit of hell. Which really just proves you know little about what we believe.
It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?
I see no reason why God's love for sinners, & efforts to save them, ends at the point of their passing out of this life.
The Calvinist will say re 1 Tim.2:4 "all men" means "all [kinds of] men", just the elect, or some such nonsense.
The Arminian will try to weasle out of it as well. Maybe say God wishes all people to be saved, but if they die without Christ in this life, His hands are tied. They've chosen eternal hell fire.
It's a good topic.
It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.
So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?
Like others have mentioned, the term "universalism" is a loaded term that has a variety of interpretations. I tend to land in the camp of ultimate reconciliation, as I don't see eternal separation as being commensurate with the power and purposes of God in creation.
Of course, the conclusion one reaches on this subject will often be colored by one's assumptions about the role of God in the determination of eternal states of being.
For those that see hell as embodying some manner of "divine retribution", then universal reconciliation might seem like God going "soft" on sin, God denying God's own "justice", whatever.
On the other hand, for those that see hell as a state of cleansing/growth/purging, then universal reconciliation has no conflict with the nature and "justice" of God, for it would be one of many means by which God brings about God's good purposes for all of humanity. In such a scenario as this where "retribution" is not a factor, true "justice" lies in reconciliation, not punishment/suffering.
In my opinion, universal reconciliation is the most Christian understanding of "final things", but of course there are many opinions that would disagree
I see no reason why God's love for sinners, & efforts to save them, ends at the point of their passing out of this life.
LaSorcia,
So far most posters have in effect merely voted, but have not grounded their claims in Scripture in any comprehensive way. The real question is this: How can the many NT texts that seem to limit ultimate salvation to Christian believers be reconciled with the many NT texts that imply the possibility that every human, dead or alive, might ultimately be saved? That question in turn depends on the possibility of ultimate release from Hell and raises the question of the basis for such a release. God does not coerce repentance and Heaven cannot tolerate the presence of wicked souls. So the next question is, does everyone in Hell have the opportunity, perhaps the encouragement and teaching, to make better choices that allow them to receive God's grace and then experience spiritual transformation and ultimate retrieval from Hell? In that case, the issue would be potential, not actual universalism, since wicked souls could theoretically persist in their stubborn resistance to the path of salvation.