Can Universalism be Christian?

[xpower]

I would say a christian can believe in "Ultimate reconciliation". In my opinion

 

[Hillsage]

All these theories are reasonable, but in the end all that matters is what God actually did decide to do, and for that we have the testimony of the Bible. IOW, all the speculation is fun but most of it is impossible.

Mostly depends upon 'which' bible you read then, doesn't it? That's why more scholarly ones, not even having the word 'eternal' in them regarding 'judgment of any kind'...kind of kink the orthodox 'rigidly straight' line of indoctrination.

How come I've never seen anyone here, ever refute the 'numerous' translations 'of the bible' which do so?

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Mostly depends upon 'which' bible you read then, doesn't it? That's why more scholarly ones, not even having the word 'eternal' in them regarding 'judgment of any kind'...kind of kink the orthodox 'rigidly straight' line of indoctrination.

How come I've never seen anyone here, ever refute the 'numerous' translations 'of the bible' which do so?

A good read on "eternal" not being "forever": https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/sometimes-eternal-isnt-forever/

 

[Job8]

So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

That's what God wants. But that is not Universalism. Only those who obey the Gospel will be saved. The rest will be damned.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Mark-16-15/
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16).

 

[Hillsage]

A good read on "eternal" not being "forever": https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/03/08/sometimes-eternal-isnt-forever/

Thank you for the URL. I went there and it looked pretty lengthy. So I first scanned it quickly, reading many names of people and books with which I am already familiar with, having studied this subject since my first exposure in the mid 70's. For the first 10 years I only hoped it was true. Since then I can only believe there is no other truth than God's 'plan' to ultimately save his beloved creation.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Thank you for the URL. I went there and it looked pretty lengthy. So I first scanned it quickly, reading many names of people and books with which I am already familiar with, having studied this subject since my first exposure in the mid 70's. For the first 10 years I only hoped it was true. Since then I can only believe there is no other truth than God's 'plan' to ultimately save his beloved creation.

Ultimately, I think the dividing line to how one thinks about this subject is dependent upon how one sees the nature of "hell". If hell is a state of punishment inflicted upon sinners by an angered deity, then there is no conflict, for we need not bother ourselves with the question of whether or not God "loves" these forever-damned sinners; clearly this God does not, or at the very least, this God loves God's own sense of self-justification more than those whom God has created.

On the other hand, if one believes that "hell" is the self-inflicted consequence of rebellion, self-will, etc., then we can easily affirm that "yes", God does indeed love those that find themselves there. However, if we acknowledge this, we must also recognize the clear biblical teaching that hell itself will eventually be swallowed up in Christ's victory. God's good plans in creation will not be left unfinished; God will not be opposed. Though it takes an eternities of eternities, the hardest heart will eventually be softened (through the wooing of the Spirit and the pains of purgation, "love's chastisement" in St. Isaac's words) and God will be "all in all":

God chastises with love, not for the sake of revenge—far be it!—but in seeking to make whole his image. And he does not harbour wrath until such time as correction is no longer possible, for he does not seek vengeance for himself. This is the aim of love. Love’s chastisement is for correction, but does not aim at retribution. … The man who chooses to consider God as avenger, presuming that in this manner he bears witness to His justice, the same accuses Him of being bereft of goodness. Far be it that vengeance could ever be found in that Fountain of love and Ocean brimming with goodness!

 

[Geralt]

Universalism is NOT "desiring all people to be saved - which is godly."

Universalism is believing all people will be saved regardless of what they do or believe in this life. Believing Jesus is irrelevant, hell does not exist, sin is an illusion, evil is simply a negative attitude. god is all love, not just.​

It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

 

[Hillsage]

Ultimately, I think the dividing line to how one thinks about this subject is dependent upon how one sees the nature of "hell". If hell is a state of punishment inflicted upon sinners by an angered deity, then there is no conflict, for we need not bother ourselves with the question of whether or not God "loves" these forever-damned sinners; clearly this God does not, or at the very least, this God loves God's own sense of self-justification more than those whom God has created.

I can only agree with your thinking here. Other than I might add that the dividing line has to include how one sees God, and not just hell. Especially since the hell of orthodoxy isn't even represented accurately here in 'overly quoted'...mis-translations IMO.

On the other hand, if one believes that "hell" is the self-inflicted consequence of rebellion, self-will, etc., then we can easily affirm that "yes", God does indeed love those that find themselves there. God's good plans in creation will not be left unfinished; God will not be opposed. Though it takes an eternities of eternities, the hardest heart will eventually be softened (through the wooing of the Spirit and the pains of purgation, "love's chastisement" in St. Isaac's words) and God will be "all in all":

But what of those who've never heard 'the only name that is named whereby one may be saved' let alone the orthodox gospel of eternal 'turn or burn' torture? Even orthodoxy wiggles room or justifies 'their demise' (babies, retarded, ect.) with unbiblical views. Which really does show that even their hearts don't believe their 'core' belief.
But your comment above leaves out the important view of 'biblical predestination', which is also a very well accepted POV even in 'some' orthodox denominations.

However, if we acknowledge this, we must also recognize the clear biblical teaching that hell itself will eventually be swallowed up in Christ's victory.

If 'eternal death/eternal life' is the only alternative eternally, as orthodoxy would have one believe, then eternal hell epitomizes eternal death and scripture remains a lie.

Either the last enemy of 'death' is destroyed in the future, according to scripture, or it is not.

1CO 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

This verse was written long after the shed blood of Jesus on Golgotha, AND His resurrection 3 days later. Oh yes, Jesus conquered death, but He never destroyed it. In the economy of the God-view we serve, "death is swallowed up in victory".

If ETERNAL HELL, or ETERNAL TORTURE or ETERNAL DAMNATION or ETERNAL DESTRUCTION is truly the price one must pay for sin, then ORTHODOXY needs to find another JESUS...because JESUS isn't suffering any of those ETERNAL ORTHODOX mandates. He is on the throne.

 

[Hillsage]

Universalism is NOT "desiring all people to be saved - which is godly."

Universalism is believing all people will be saved regardless of what they do or believe in this life.​

This is basically true depending upon your 'brand' of Universalism.

Believing Jesus is irrelevant, hell does not exist, sin is an illusion, evil is simply a negative attitude. god is all love, not just.

​

And this is just a lie from the pit of hell. Which really just proves you know little about what we believe.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

Wouldn't the scriptures say something other than what is reported of Jesus teaching about salvation if Universalism was true?
No one comes to the Father but through Me.

If all were saved with the sacrifice of Christ on the cross wouldn't that passage read differently and to that end?
Something like, all shall come to the Father after my sacrifice that saves all souls.

Praying for all people to be saved is not the same as the philosophy described within the teaching of Universalist Christian doctrine.
Universalism says that all people are saved regardless of their ascribing their faith to Jesus.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

​

And this is just a lie from the pit of hell. Which really just proves you know little about what we believe.

Ouch! I think you misread Geralt's remarks Brother. They were describing what Universalism teaches. Not stating what they believe. Maybe read their post again?

 

[BryanMaloney]

It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

That isn't Universalism. Universalism is the belief that there will be no damnation for anyone, no matter what--all will ultimately be reconciled with God and salvation and paradise will be universal. That is different from praying that everyone will be reconciled. Now, if you believe that, merely by praying for it, you will make it happen, then it is universalism. However, if you believe that your prayer will do that, then you must also believe that your prayers could convert God into Satan or have any other result, if that is what you choose to pray.

 

[BryanMaloney]

I see no reason why God's love for sinners, & efforts to save them, ends at the point of their passing out of this life.

The Calvinist will say re 1 Tim.2:4 "all men" means "all [kinds of] men", just the elect, or some such nonsense.

The Arminian will try to weasle out of it as well. Maybe say God wishes all people to be saved, but if they die without Christ in this life, His hands are tied. They've chosen eternal hell fire.

It's a good topic.

God's Hands are never tied. God is above all ties and above all limits. That being said, that doesn't mean that God will not freely choose for some to be condemned, but God is not some weak little slave whose Hands can be "tied" in any way. His Power and Majesty are unlimited, unfettered, and unlimitable by anything we might say or think. God is above all limits and all bondage.

 

[JoeP222w]

It says in 1 Timothy 2:4(God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It also says in 1 John 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So, why not pray for everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

The context of 1 Timothy 2:1-4, is referring to kinds of people (v.2: "kings", "high positions"). It does not mean every single human being that has ever existed.

If all human beings who have ever lived gets saved, that causes some major problems: Jesus sacrifice on the cross was meaningless, God is denied His autonomous free will, God's election is denied, God's justice is denied.

Yes, the Christian is to pray for all people, because God has not revealed to us who the elect are. We do not know who are God's elect. So we are called to proclaim the gospel to all people, in all kinds of positions.

 

[JoeP222w]

Like others have mentioned, the term "universalism" is a loaded term that has a variety of interpretations. I tend to land in the camp of ultimate reconciliation, as I don't see eternal separation as being commensurate with the power and purposes of God in creation.

Of course, the conclusion one reaches on this subject will often be colored by one's assumptions about the role of God in the determination of eternal states of being.

For those that see hell as embodying some manner of "divine retribution", then universal reconciliation might seem like God going "soft" on sin, God denying God's own "justice", whatever.

On the other hand, for those that see hell as a state of cleansing/growth/purging, then universal reconciliation has no conflict with the nature and "justice" of God, for it would be one of many means by which God brings about God's good purposes for all of humanity. In such a scenario as this where "retribution" is not a factor, true "justice" lies in reconciliation, not punishment/suffering.

In my opinion, universal reconciliation is the most Christian understanding of "final things", but of course there are many opinions that would disagree

I don't see how you would find any Biblical support for your position.

And the Bible has verses that contradict your position:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Mark 9:48 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 22:12-13 And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. (13) Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[JoeP222w]

The Calvinist will say re 1 Tim.2:4 "all men" means "all [kinds of] men", just the elect, or some such nonsense.

You do not read a Bible verse in isolation. Context matters.

 

[Albion]

FWIW, the New Testament does contain about a half-dozen verses that seem to teach Universal salvation. They may partially explain the popularity of the idea in the early church.

 

[Deadworm]

LaSorcia,

So far most posters have in effect merely voted, but have not grounded their claims in Scripture in any comprehensive way. The real question is this: How can the many NT texts that seem to limit ultimate salvation to Christian believers be reconciled with the many NT texts that imply the possibility that every human, dead or alive, might ultimately be saved? That question in turn depends on the possibility of ultimate release from Hell and raises the question of the basis for such a release. God does not coerce repentance and Heaven cannot tolerate the presence of wicked souls. So the next question is, does everyone in Hell have the opportunity, perhaps the encouragement and teaching, to make better choices that allow them to receive God's grace and then experience spiritual transformation and ultimate retrieval from Hell? In that case, the issue would be potential, not actual universalism, since wicked souls could theoretically persist in their stubborn resistance to the path of salvation.

LaSorcia, what is your reaction to my rationale? Do you want a separate thread that makes the case that Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John (in Revelation) all teach the theoretical possibility of universal release from Hell? Or do you want every relevant text to be analyzed and debated on your thread? What do you want?

 

[JoeP222w]

I see no reason why God's love for sinners, & efforts to save them, ends at the point of their passing out of this life.

God does not love the wicked. God casts unregenerate sinners into Hell, not their sin.

Psalm 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Psalm 1:5-6 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; (6) for the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

 

[Albion]

LaSorcia,

So far most posters have in effect merely voted, but have not grounded their claims in Scripture in any comprehensive way. The real question is this: How can the many NT texts that seem to limit ultimate salvation to Christian believers be reconciled with the many NT texts that imply the possibility that every human, dead or alive, might ultimately be saved? That question in turn depends on the possibility of ultimate release from Hell and raises the question of the basis for such a release. God does not coerce repentance and Heaven cannot tolerate the presence of wicked souls. So the next question is, does everyone in Hell have the opportunity, perhaps the encouragement and teaching, to make better choices that allow them to receive God's grace and then experience spiritual transformation and ultimate retrieval from Hell? In that case, the issue would be potential, not actual universalism, since wicked souls could theoretically persist in their stubborn resistance to the path of salvation.

All of this amounts to one possible way of looking at the matter, and it includes an assumption that hasn't been proven--that heaven cannot 'tolerate the presence of wicked souls.' What's a wicked soul? If Hell is a way of cleansing or rehabilitating, are former inhabitants still wicked? Is Heaven completely uniform? After all, we're told that there are many mansions, third heaven and seventh heaven are referred to, and so on.