Can the day or hour be known?

Can the day or hour be known prior to Christ's second coming?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 4.2%
  • No

    Votes: 23 95.8%

  • Total voters
    24

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
47
Washington
✟260,525.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
among the righteous there are no Jew or Gentile they are all one spiritual Isreal, the gentiles spoken of are the lost/wicked that is why they are not in the temple.

If John is counting both Jew and Gentile (the one spiritual Israel) in Revelation 11:1, then why are the people in Revelation 7:9 unable to be counted?
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Why does the word measure <3354> mean judged? Can you provide any other verses that have used <3354> as judged?

Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
If John is counting both Jew and Gentile (the one spiritual Israel) in Revelation 11:1, then why are the people in Revelation 7:9 unable to be counted?

I may not be understanding your question in ref to Rev 11:1 as Rev 7:9 is very clear a multitude that no man could number.

Maybe my post #182 answers your question.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
  • Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.
 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
47
Washington
✟260,525.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I’m having a hard time with this explanation. I wouldn’t interpret the word measure in Matthew 7:2 as judgment. I would think that it means exactly what it says, when examining or measuring someone, that same metric will be required of us. It is possible measure people in a forgiving manner.

I’m not sure we are going to be able to come to any conclusion on this. The articles you have linked to contain too much speculation for me personally.
 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,526
246
47
Washington
✟260,525.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
  • Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

I have a different view of this;

When I look at Revelation 7:1-2 I see the angels that hold the wind back hurting the earth by not letting the wind blow.

Verses 3 the angels are told not to hurt the earth till the servants are sealed. All that are seal are all that are saved through out time.

Verse 4 I heard the number that were sealed. This is the people that were sealed prior to the command not to hurt the earth by not letting the wind blow. At Pentecost the wind blew and I see the great multitude in verse 9 as the result of the wind blowing.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,597.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Who were them and you?

Would they by any chance be His disciples?

They could only be deceived by someone(s) who would appear in their lifetimes.

Their question is specific as to the timing of the end of this world when Jesus returns. That didn't happen in their day, it is still for sometime in our future. That is plenty enough to be certain the timing of those signs is for the very end leading up to Jesus' 2nd coming.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,597.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The pharisees taught that events pertaining to the time of the end took place in 167 bc.
There are some "Christians" who teach events pertaining to the time of the end took place in 70 ad.

There's just some people you will not be able to reach they are as so far gone.

The doctrine of man called Preterism is just a doctrine of men. Those who won't heed God's Word as written are the Jews whom He blinded, or the children of darkness that have no understanding. We can only plant a seed with them and pray God will open their eyes.
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Their question is specific as to the timing of the end of this world when Jesus returns. That didn't happen in their day, it is still for sometime in our future. That is plenty enough to be certain the timing of those signs is for the very end leading up to Jesus' 2nd coming.

The disciples and Judean Christians didn't wait until the end of the world to flee.

They heeded and acted upon Jesus' warning, as He intended.

Thankfully, they were not modernist dispensational futurites.

Here is a bit more evidence for you to contemplate.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have a different view of this;

When I look at Revelation 7:1-2 I see the angels that hold the wind back hurting the earth by not letting the wind blow.

Verses 3 the angels are told not to hurt the earth till the servants are sealed. All that are seal are all that are saved through out time.

Verse 4 I heard the number that were sealed. This is the people that were sealed prior to the command not to hurt the earth by not letting the wind blow. At Pentecost the wind blew and I see the great multitude in verse 9 as the result of the wind blowing.

I wouldn't disagree. The salient symbol, however, is that of the 144,000; the identity of which is the OT and NT redeemed of the ages, collectively, the Church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Their question is specific as to the timing of the end of this world when Jesus returns. That didn't happen in their day, it is still for sometime in our future. That is plenty enough to be certain the timing of those signs is for the very end leading up to Jesus' 2nd coming.

From the Greek:

"...what is the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age."

165 [e]
aiōnos
αἰῶνος ?
age
N-GMS

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

The disciples first question was:

When shall these things be?

"These things", referring to Jesus' description of the destruction of the temple in verse 2.

"These things" were imminent (Matthew 24:34), thus Jesus devotes most of the chapter to events and conditions presaging them.

The end of that age was the end of the old covenant age.

In 70 AD.

After the Judean Christians had fled.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Titus, himself a pagan, understood more than today's modernist dispensational delusionites.

"Titus reportedly refused to accept a wreath of victory, as he claimed that he had not won the victory on his own, but had been the vehicle through which their God had manifested his wrath against his people."

That still doesn't make Jesus the commanding prince of the Roman Legions! You are reaching for a rescue device!

So the Jewish converts in the churches to which Paul and Peter wrote never received the everlasting righteousness that Paul and Peter said they did?

Then what did they receive?

So you haven't received the everlasting righteousness which Paul and Peter said you have?

Then what have you received?

Are you still in your sin?

If not, Who delivered you, and through what Supreme Watershed Event of history did He deliver you?

During which of Daniel's 70 weeks did that Event occur?

Did He through that Event bring in everlasting righteousness, and make you righteous? (Romans 5:17-21; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

Was the righteousness which He brought in everlasting, or was it temporary?

If it was temporary, when did it end for you?

If He didn't cause sacrifice and oblation to cease, then do we assume that you are still offering sacrifice and oblation in your garage or basement?

Go back and reread the other two or three times I answered this inanity! I will not rewrite it again to satisfy you.

Did He through that Event bring in everlasting righteousness, and make you righteous? (Romans 5:17-21; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 1 Peter 2:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

Is there still sin?

has Israel made an end of transgression?

You strain at gnats!


You look to mens responses. God knows who are the children of:

The Israelites were the twelve sons of the biblical patriarch Jacob. Jacob also had one daughter, Dinah, whose descendants were not recognized as a separate tribe.


Parentage of Jacob's twelve sons, per Genesis 35
The sons of Jacob were born in Padan-aram from different mothers, as follows:[1]


Mosaic depicting the twelve tribes and their Hebrew names, with symbolic images.
Asher: an Asherah pole
Dan: Scales of justice
Judah: Kinnor, cithara and crown, symbolising King David
Reuben: Mandrake (Genesis 30:14)
Joseph: Palm tree and sheaves of wheat, symbolizing his time in Egypt
Naphtali: gazelle (Genesis 49:21)
Issachar: Sun, moon and stars (1 Chronicles 12:23)
Simeon: towers and walls of the city of Shechem
Benjamin: jug, ladle and fork
Gad: tents, symbolizing their itinerancy as cattle-herders
Zebulun: ship, due to their bordering the Sea of Galilee and Mediterranean
Levi: Priestly breastplate
Deuteronomy 27:12–13 lists the twelve tribes:

  • Reuben (Hebrew ראובן Rəʼûḇēn)
  • Simeon (שמעון Šimʻôn)
  • Levi (לוי Lêwî)
  • Judah (יהודה Yehuḏā)
  • Issachar (יששכר Yiśśāšḵār)
  • Zebulun (זבולון Zəḇūlun)
  • Dan (דן Dān)
  • Naphtali (נפתלי Nap̄tālî)
  • Gad (גד Gāḏ)
  • Asher (אשר ’Āšêr)
  • Benjamin (בנימין Binyāmîn)
  • Joseph (יוסף Yôsēp̄), later split into two "half-tribes":
  • Just like the false "gay" gene, If I decide to spend the time to look at "all of us are Jews in a measure, I will find the flaw!
God knows His covenant children- no matter what man says!
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Go back and reread the other two or three times I answered this inanity! I will not rewrite it again to satisfy you.

You refuse to confirm that you've received everlasting righteousness. Where does that leave you?

Where does it leave everyone who has not received that everlasting righteousness?

Sadly, there's only one correct answer, and it has nothing to do with descendants, or genetics, or ethnicity, or DNA.

Do you know what that answer is?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God knows His covenant children- no matter what man says!

He certainly does. And so do we who believe His Word.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟784,067.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That still doesn't make Jesus the commanding prince of the Roman Legions!

What does it make Him?

According to Titus, a Roman pagan, God used the Roman army as His vehicle of judgment and destruction.

Do you think that Jesus, Messiah the Prince, just stood by and watched?

Titus, a Roman pagan, understood what modernist dispensational delusional futurism does not.

So did Daniel, who prophesied precisely (Daniel 9:26) of what Titus would acknowledge many years later.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You refuse to confirm that you've received everlasting righteousness. Where does that leave you?

Where does it leave everyone who has not received that everlasting righteousness?

Sadly, there's only one correct answer, and it has nothing to do with descendants, or genetics, or ethnicity, or DNA.

Do you know what that answer is?

I have repeatedly told you I have received everlasting righteousness- but not all Daniels people have so it is unfulfilled! Nor have the pleroma of the gentiles received it yet!

Please don't tell me gentiles magically become Israelis!

What does it make Him?

According to Titus, a Roman pagan, God used the Roman army as His vehicle of judgment and destruction.

Do you think that Jesus, Messiah the Prince, just stood by and watched?

Titus, a Roman pagan, understood what modernist dispensational delusional futurism does not.

So did Daniel, who prophesied precisely (Daniel 9:26) of what Titus would acknowledge many years later.

I care not what Titus declared! It is the language God uses and its normal understanding--not some mumbo jumbop hocus pocus re-interpretation to make Jesus General fo the Roman armies, but then you balk at HIm being Da fueher of the Nazi SS troops. You just want to pick and choose which pagan armies you want Jesus to be commander of !

Well if you want Jesus to be the Roman Prince (the people who camer and destroyed the sancuray) Tell me what year He confirmed a 7 year covenant with Israel. Also tell me the what happened 3 1/2 years later that he caused the sacrifice and oblations to cease.

And then tell me at the end of the 70th week (as you believe it already passed) List what date all the things happened that the Angel told Daniel that 70 weeks were determined for Israelis and Jerusalem.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He certainly does. And so do we who believe His Word.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

Yes there is natural Israel and the Israel of God which in the church age are those of Israeli heritage and lineage get saved! We become one body in Christ!

But as you like to quote Paul, He had enough sense to let people know the distinctions:

1 Corinthians 10:31-33 King James Version (KJV)
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

See it becomes real easy that when God is speaking of spiritual Israel- it refers to the saved Jews! When it is not a distinct spiritual interpretation, He is referring to natural Israel whom God has made covenants with that He will fulfill!

Gentiles are all people not descended from the twelve tribes!

Teh church of God are the saved Jews and Gentiles who are now one body in Christ!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums