Can the Church Survive Without man's tradition?

[bekkilyn]

There are other threads that deal with similar matter--this thread, is itself, a spin off of @Tree of Life's Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?.

My intent is to kind of sift through the different viewpoints, from both sides...a hashing out, if you will--to better understand my own stance on it. I hope that others will also be open to an honest look at their positions to solidify them or make adjustments if deemed necessary.

A big issue with that other thread is that there was no agreement as to how to define "God's Word" in the first place. Can the church survive without Christ? No. Can the church survive without written words on a page, i.e. Bible? Yes.

So same for this thread as well, can the church survive without Christ? No. Can the church survive without tradition? Yes.

 

[DamianWarS]

Also, ask if your motive is 100% pure in following traditions. Many times it is family that influences one to follow an Orthodox or Catholic Faith. For they are not known for evangelism. So it was not ever really something about seeking the truth but following a path laid out by your family because love them. But Jesus essentially says we have to love Him more than our family.

You've just described the condition of millions of Christians, perhaps yourself included. This is not unique to those who value tradition.

 

[DamianWarS]

Isn't everything in every Church man's tradition?

Except of course the stuff that's not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You've just described the condition of millions of Christians, perhaps yourself included. This is not unique to those who value tradition.

I would say that even self proclaimed Sola Scriptura churches have man made traditions or teachings that are unbiblical. This would even include Protestantism (and their false Belief Alone Salvationism). They just will not admit that some of their beliefs are traditions of men. Note: Please keep in mind that I am a Trinitarian, Sola Scriptura, Non-denominational Christian.

 

[Tutorman]

Yes, evangelism is a Biblical mandate.

Not quite. Nor is that what I said try evangelicalism is man made tradition, you hate Holy Tradition so much why not get rid of your man made stuff.

 

[Tone]

Not quite. Nor is that what I said try evangelicalism is man made tradition, you hate Holy Tradition so much why not get rid of your man made stuff.

Okay try this, spreading the gospel is a Scriptural mandate...how's that? I don't believe I said "evangelicalism"; I meant it in this way:

"e·van·ge·lism
/əˈvanjəˌlizəm/
noun

1. the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness."

What "man made stuff" are you referring to, anything in particular?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Just another way to look at it. It seems that those who believe that the Church can survive without the Bible, are the very same who couldn't live without their tradition...

Just what is your real question, is there one in the op?

or the title ?

"Can the Church Survive Without man's tradition? "

Answer: Obviously yes. (unless something outside of Scripture is meant by the op)

 

[Not David]

So, "Divine traditions" are more essential than the Bible?

The Bible is part of Holy Tradition so nope.

 

[Tone]

Just what is your real question, is there one in the op?

or the title ?

"Can the Church Survive Without man's tradition? "

Answer: Obviously yes. (unless something outside of Scripture is meant by the op)

This is really the key question. What extra-biblical tradition is there that we can know, with certainty, is from above? I mean, can you really make a solid case for it with no reference to Scripture...would you want to?

I ask everybody here to seriously consider this three-part question: How do you personally determine what is holy/unholy, How do you determine this for those under you, and how does your "church" (local assembly) determine this for each other?

Also these ^

I have been thinking about this and I am now wondering about the whole idea of proper worship...I think that many of the things that we discuss/debate may not be salvific issues, but perhaps lie more along the lines of cultural expression.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Also these ^

I have been thinking about this and I am now wondering about the whole idea of proper worship...I think that many of the things that we discuss/debate may not be salvific issues, but perhaps lie more along the lines of cultural expression.

Yahuweh and His Word NEVER gave it to people to decide what is holy.

Nor did He ever leave it up to people to discuss or to debate what is , as you say "salvific", per se - i.e. it is not for people to decide what is true,
but as written
for the Father to reveal to His children what is true.

Most everything on earth , again as you put this "things we discuss/debate"
is false and not worth the time to do, as being false it leads people the wrong direction.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have been thinking about this and I am now wondering about the whole idea of proper worship...

Ask the Father in heaven to show you true service (= true worship) in spirit and in truth. This is understood by the ancient Jews as everything, every part of life,
not just a few hours here and there.
Also,
As Jochanan the immerser said, this can only be known to those to whom the Father grants it from heaven.
Actually, it is more important that that is as Yahushua Says also , as He is First and is Above all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible is part of Holy Tradition so nope.

According to 1600's English this would be true (seeing the word could also mean "teaching"), but by our Modern understanding on that word, this is not the case. Traditions is defined as something Jesus condemned. They are essentially the additional teachings of men that in most cases violates God's Word (Scripture). They are teachings that are not written under the inspiration of God. They are the thoughts of men on trying to be religious beyond the scope of God's Word.

Again, you have to prove that the extra biblical church traditions are divine in origin. I have not seen any article make such a claim that church tradition is infallible and without error. If anything they are riddled with obvious contradictions and they appear to conflict with the Bible.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Bible is part of Holy Tradition so nope.

According to many Christians (although in the world there is only "few who find the narrow road to life" ) ,
that is not the truth.

 

[Tone]

Ask the Father in heaven to show you true service (= true worship) in spirit and in truth. This is understood by the ancient Jews as everything, every part of life,
not just a few hours here and there.
Also,
As Jochanan the immerser said, this can only be known to those to whom the Father grants it from heaven.
Actually, it is more important that that is as Yahushua Says also , as He is First and is Above all.

I think I see what you mean, thank you. Is it that this walk is all so tightly and fittingly interwoven that there should be no distinction between "salvific" and "cultural expression", because the Bible says enough about true worship for us to distinguish between acceptable/unacceptable ways to conduct ourselves within His Body?

 

[Tone]

Yahuweh and His Word NEVER gave it to people to decide what is holy.

Nor did He ever leave it up to people to discuss or to debate what is , as you say "salvific", per se - i.e. it is not for people to decide what is true,
but as written
for the Father to reveal to His children what is true.

So, no systematic theologies?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, no systematic theologies?

Do you know of any ? (in truth, in harmony with ALL Scripture, with NO contradictions)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think I see what you mean, thank you. Is it that this walk is all so tightly and fittingly interwoven that there should be no distinction between "salvific" and "cultural expression", because the Bible says enough about true worship for us to distinguish between acceptable/unacceptable ways to conduct ourselves within His Body?

I'm not sure about your statement/ question, (maybe clarify?) ....
but as written in Scripture, God's Plan and Purpose in Salvation,
"cultural expressions" (if I understand what you mean)
have no place and no weight in deciding what to do for the Ekklesia.
Just like a private in the armed forces, does what he is ordered to do,
and does not become entangled in the affairs of this world.
He does not decide where to go, nor what to eat, nor where to put up the tent, unless directed to (given orders).

 

[GingerBeer]

Except of course the stuff that's not.

That'd be none of it because everything is tradition and everything came from human beings, mainly men I suppose because back in the day men counted and women were mostly not listened to very much. Things haven't changed very much on that count have they?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I was referring to 2 Timothy 3:1-9. If you were to read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 (please actually read it - preferably in the King James), you will see that it says in the last days perilous times will come and men will have a form of godliness but they will deny the power thereof. They will be lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. A basic comparison of the early church today and the regular church we see today shows the contrast that the early church lived godly and they helped the poor and they preached the gospel along with the training the brethren to live holy and righteous (overall). Yes, some churches like the Corinthian church had their problems (1 Corinthians 3-6), but it is not so widespread like it is today. Today, we are living in a spiritual wasteland. Nobody seems to understand basic truths like repentance (Which is the Sinner's Prayer), and nobody is interested in teaching others in how to live holy today. People are interested in doing their own thing or some church tradition. But what about the Word of God? It sits on the shelf collecting dust and is cracked open once every Sunday only to hear the preacher say a few words from it with the congregation saying... "Amen." There is no true study of the Scriptures today from an unbiased or objective viewpoint. All teachings are seen by the light of other men. They follow the names of other men and call themselves after these men (Even though Scripture condemns this - 1 Corinthians 3). Most I talk with are justifying sin on some kind of level (Whether it be traditions that violate God's Word, or whether it be a sin and still be saved doctrine of some kind). I believe there are very few today who are truly seeking to follow Jesus. Following Jesus seems more like an afterthought or wishful thinking today and or it is turned into "their version" of following Jesus instead of how it is described in God's Word (the Bible).

Did you know, that if you listen to the bible in MP3 format, you could totally take in the whole bible every week?

I find the born again spirits need more good food to develop spiritual attributes.

In James it is said to not be only hearers of the word . but how often do people hear the word read to them?

A lot to think about for sure.

 

[Tone]

Do you know of any ? (in truth, in harmony with ALL Scripture, with NO contradictions)

Probably not.