Can someone explain what a Nicene is?

[Goodbook]

Think it may be Benny Hinn or some of the more charismatic/pentecostal crowd that teach something different?

 

[Goodbook]

hmm it seems the Nicene Creed is more specific about the trinity than the apostles creed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The Nicene creed does explain that the holy spirit proceeds from the Father and Son, not that its a completely separate person, which I have heard some preachers teach.

My thoughts are, that can get into iffy terrtory esp with new age or other religious belief, because they commune with spirits who may call themselves the holy spirit and not necessarily come from Father God and Lord Jesus. Then all the focus goes into the holy spirit, instead of to Jesus, who always points to our Father.

You are right that there are MANY possible errors.

By the way, we teach that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone as the sole Source - that is how the Nicene Creed was written. "And from the Son" is a phrase called the Filioque, and it was introduced later by Rome, and was cause of great dispute between the Orthodox and Rome, which later became the Catholic Church, as Orthodoxy objected to having foundational beliefs changed. In an ETERNAL sense, the Father is the Source, and it is only in the eternal proceeding, or begetting, of the Holy Spirit or Christ that this can be understood, as far as humans are able. This is the cause of some of the errors that have developed.

We do NOT have "three Gods". They share a single Essence. But there ARE three Persons. They cannot be "separate" though. I know this defies logic, and as I said, it is in the understanding of the Father as the only Source and the eternalness of the relationships that it can begin to be understood.

 

[Goodbook]

So..would some pentecostal christians be considered non-nicene christians? Just if they believe the holy spirit is separate or apart from the Father and Son, would that make them non-nicene?

I mean thinking about how faith is expressed in those types of churches is very different, often wildly different from other types of churches.

 

[~Anastasia~]

hmm it seems the Nicene Creed is more specific about the trinity than the apostles creed.

It is more specific in a number of points. We don't actually use the Apostles' Creed. But we recite the Nicene Creed (in the original Greek text as well as in an English translation) at every Liturgy to affirm what we all believe.

 

[Goodbook]

Yes I did read a bit of church history on reasons for the split.
I do agree that the Father is the source because the spirit was given even before Jesus was here on earth, and of course John the baptist had it, only that Jesus had the full expression and embodied the holy spirit to the fullest extent.

 

[Goodbook]

I think the apostles creed isn't used so much because there is room for error.

 

[~Anastasia~]

So..would some pentecostal christians be considered non-nicene christians? Just if they believe the holy spirit is separate or apart from the Father and Son, would that make them non-nicene?

I mean thinking about how faith is expressed in those types of churches is very different, often wildly different from other types of churches.

Oneness or non-Trinitarian believers are not really Nicene Christians.

But rather than take the stance that would bar all Pentecostals, I think it's more accurate to say that they probably aren't taught to think deeply about such things and may have a less defined understanding. We acknowledge the Trinity as something mysterious, but that is sometimes taken as a reason just not to think too much about things. (And as an irony, we recognize that there ARE things we can't reason our way to about God. We often simply accept what has been revealed to us.)

I think their hearts are for God. And deep theological understanding is not what saves us.

 

[Goodbook]

in church sometimes we recite it or sing it. But not all the time. I wonder if its something that churches ought to do every single week or is it just kinda something in the background.
I don't know if there's people who can say it but don't believe it, as one poster has pointed out.

 

[Goodbook]

Oneness or non-Trinitarian believers are not really Nicene Christians.

But rather than take the stance that would bar all Pentecostals, I think it's more accurate to say that they probably aren't taught to think deeply about such things and may have a less defined understanding. We acknowledge the Trinity as something mysterious, but that is sometimes taken as a reason just not to think too much about things.

I think their hearts are for God. And deep theological understanding is not what saves us.

is it some pentecostals don't believe this or all pentecostals as a group? I think this site doesn't really bar them from posting.
Also sometimes I get a bit confused between pentecostals and charismatics as there seems to be a bit of a mixture.

 

[~Anastasia~]

in church sometimes we recite it or sing it. But not all the time. I wonder if its something that churches ought to do every single week or is it just kinda something in the background.
I don't know if there's people who can say it but don't believe it, as one poster has pointed out.

People are capable of saying and learning all kinds of things they don't believe.

All I know is that we recite it together as a community every time we gather, and it is something that binds us together and is a basis for our shared Communion. And that we've done it that way for a very long time.

 

[~Anastasia~]

is it some pentecostals don't believe this or all pentecostals as a group? I think this site doesn't really bar them from posting.
Also sometimes I get a bit confused between pentecostals and charismatics as there seems to be a bit of a mixture.

The site doesn't bar atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. from posting, except in Christian-only areas.

Technically, one is supposed to believe in the Nicene Creed, which includes a belief in the Holy Trinity, in order to post in Christian-only areas. Most Pentecostals and charismatics do believe in the Trinity. (Exceptions would be United Pentecostals, Apostolic Pentecostals, Oneness believers - these are all Modalists instead of Trinitarian, I think.)

I'll leave it to someone else to explain the differences between charismatics and Pentecostals. I probably couldn't explain that well.

 

[DawnStar]

Pentecostals are charismatic. But you can be charismatic and not be a Pentecostal. Many nondenominational churches are charismatic in practice.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Can someone post it here to compare? I just want to ask something about the trinity, it seems there's varying beliefs amongst christians, the nicene creed doesn't say the holy spirit is another completely separate person does it? But have heard some christians believe this and some don't. As for myself I am not sure what to adhere to but I know the work of the holy spirit in my life even if I can't define exactly the way he works.

It seems to me the important thing, even from amongst all the differing and quibbling trinitarian beliefs is that Jesus is Lord and saviour.

Would you agree or does that open a can of worms?

It opens a massive can of worms. Sects that deny the full eternal deity of our Lord, like the Jehovah's Witnesses and other Arian groups, deny the reality of the incarnation, and as such, deny our Lord.

 

[faroukfarouk]

What is a nicene christian?
Sorry, before I post a question in here, I dont want to get in trouble.

Are the non-nicene christians who do not accept Jesus is Lord. Cos that doesnt make sense.

The adjective simply refers to Nicea; where a church council asserted the already Scriptural doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Philip_B]

Just to tidy up a few of the issues.

• Nicaea is a city is Turkey about 90 Km SE of Istanbul
• The First Ecumenical Council met there in 325 AD and the Creed formed there is the Creed of the Nicene Council.
• The Second Ecumenical Council met in Constantinople (Istanbul) in 381 AD. The Creed was revised there and that is the Creed we call the Nicene Creed, and this creed ratified by later Councils Ephesus 431 AD and Chalcedon 451 AD. Sometimes scholars refer to it as the Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed to distinguish it from the Creed of the Nicene Council. This creed built heavily on the work of the Nicene Council and the work of the Cappadocian Fathers to who the whole church owes a great debt. The term Nicene Creed if not explained or qualified almost certainly refers tot he Creed of this Council.
• A Nicene Christian is one who accepts/believes the Nicene Creed.
• The Apostle's Creed is first mentioned in a letter from Ambrose of Milan to the Pope following a Council in Milan 390/1 AD. The Apostles Creed neither stresses nor denies the divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Ambrose was a Nicene Christian, however his predecessor was an Arian Christian, and it is likely that there were many Arian Christians in Milan, and Ambrose was well regarded by them. The Apostles Creed was accepted in the West as a Baptismal Symbol, but never in the East. In recent time the Apostles Creed has become part of some RC liturgies as an alternative to the creed of the Council.
• The original version of the Nicene Creed from the Council of Constantinople said the the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The addition of the words 'and the Son' is known as the filioque clause, formally adopted in Rome on the 14th of February 1014 under Pope Benedict VIII and never accepted in the East. It was one of the key factors leading the to Great Schism in 1054.
• Three Persons and One God is the classic English expression of the doctrine.
  • Article 1 of the 39 Articles.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
• We use the term Person to express the Greek Hypostasis which refers to the the underlying fundamental basis of existence (identity, soul and intellect). I think that sometimes we need to be cognisant of the limitations of English.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Just to tidy up a few of the issues.

• Nicaea is a city is Turkey about 90 Km SE of Istanbul
• The First Ecumenical Council met there in 325 AD and the Creed formed there is the Creed of the Nicene Council.
• The Second Ecumenical Council met in Constantinople (Istanbul) in 381 AD. The Creed was revised there and that is the Creed we call the Nicene Creed, and this creed ratified by later Councils Ephesus 431 AD and Chalcedon 451 AD. Sometimes scholars refer to it as the Nicene-Constantinoplitan Creed to distinguish it from the Creed of the Nicene Council. This creed built heavily on the work of the Nicene Council and the work of the Cappadocian Fathers to who the whole church owes a great debt. The term Nicene Creed if not explained or qualified almost certainly refers tot he Creed of this Council.
• A Nicene Christian is one who accepts/believes the Nicene Creed.
• The Apostle's Creed is first mentioned in a letter from Ambrose of Milan to the Pope following a Council in Milan 390/1 AD. The Apostles Creed neither stresses nor denies the divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Ambrose was a Nicene Christian, however his predecessor was an Arian Christian, and it is likely that there were many Arian Christians in Milan, and Ambrose was well regarded by them. The Apostles Creed was accepted in the West as a Baptismal Symbol, but never in the East. In recent time the Apostles Creed has become part of some RC liturgies as an alternative to the creed of the Council.
• The original version of the Nicene Creed from the Council of Constantinople said the the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The addition of the words 'and the Son' is known as the filioque clause, formally adopted in Rome on the 14th of February 1014 under Pope Benedict VIII and never accepted in the East. It was one of the key factors leading the to Great Schism in 1054.
• Three Persons and One God is the classic English expression of the doctrine.
  • Article 1 of the 39 Articles.
    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
• We use the term Person to express the Greek Hypostasis which refers to the the underlying fundamental basis of existence (identity, soul and intellect). I think that sometimes we need to be cognisant of the limitations of English.

One minor nitpick: person expresses the Greek prosopon, which is not synonymous with hypostasis.

It is vitally important that prosopon and hypostasis not be conflated or confused.

At the same time, it is even more vitally important that we avoid the Nestorian error of saying that our Lord was one prosopon with two hypostases.

Of course any real discussion of Nestorianism will inevitably involve recourse to East Syriac Christological jargon (for example, qnume, which would almost but not quite mean something vaguely similiar to but not quite exactly identical with hypostasis) which I expect our friend @SteveCaruso would find to be inane and relatively boring, although I feel compelled to "@" him since you managed to mention a subject which infers another subject (Nestorianism) which in turn infers another subject (East Syriac Aramaic) which might by way of a tangent be of interest to him.

Nonetheless, returning to the realm of Byzantine Christological jargon, the definition you provide for hypostasis is of course correct. Prosopa on the other hand is interesting in that while it is est translated as person, it has the sense of meaning a,ong other things "face" "countenance" or "personality," but this relates to how the idea of personhood was understood in the ancient world (Metropolitan Kallistos Ware delivered an interesting lecture on this subject). That said, it would be grossly misleading to translate prosopon as face; in our partially depraved modern society this might give the impression of Sabellianism.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Very much "liked" the last two posts, though I agree that hypostasis and prosopon should not be confused, and we (Eastern Orthodox) do indeed believe that Christ was one Person with two "natures".

One day I'll have to talk more about that. I'd like to get a better understanding of the OO point of view. Maybe I'll make a thread in Traditional Theology.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

*cough Eastern Orthodox cough cough*

 

[~Anastasia~]

*cough Eastern Orthodox cough cough*

Lol true ... Apologies, I tend to shorten it on forums.

There ... fixed.