Can Someone Explain This To Me Please?

[ICONO'CLAST]

Thank you for your response. This is exactly what I'm looking for. Someone to shred my logic until it becomes absurd to try to defend. THEN maybe my heart will change...maybe? The problem is I cannot pick and choose the parts of the Bible that make sense to me....it's all or nothing....and there's some seriously strange stuff in there. I've read the Bible in total twice, two different translations. No help, just a lot of opacity.

My problem is: God, being all powerful, creates things with their own free will. Every time he does this, free will takes over, and God loses them. Lots of them. Sometimes, most of them. Free will must be pretty important, considering what a truly horrible creation humanity turned out to be.

God made man originally upright, but the fall thrust mankind into sin and rebellion.
eccl7:9 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
The love of God is only found in Christ.
When God destroys sinners in the bible, it is to protect the Godly line, as promised.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"hedrick,

[You mention killing whole cities that didn't pass. I note that many of us (though a minority) don't regard that section of the Bible as historical. The New Testament is based on information from pretty near the events. There's also reason to think that there were records for much of the OT history. I wouldn't consider beliefs about ancient history as an essential element in following Christ, nor is thinking that the Bible was written by people in a very different culture than ours a problem. In fact it seems obviously true.

Of course I'm categorized as a liberal, which many Christians think is a dirty word. But there are a fair number of us among both Catholics and Protestants.]

Hedrick....this is not "liberal"...it is unbelief. You cannot set aside God given scripture.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Okay murder isn't the proper word. Let's say: Removed from earthly existence suddenly and prematurely, with prejudice.

deut32;
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel:

46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law.

47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

 

[drich0150]

I'm just going to comment/correct as we go seems easier.

I was raised in a devout Christian household. I believed. I prayed. I had faith. I was also very young. Later, once I had gained a more sophisticated intellect, I began to notice that what I believe did not match up with what I was seeing every day, and what I knew of human history (horrible and disgusting).

Everyone seems to agree on the premise that God loves us, and desires to be with us forever.

not all of us. we are not all his children. Parable of the wheat and weed, sheep and goats, wheat and chaff ect..

But in order to be with him, you have to go through a pass/fail test called life.

no you must select to be with Him as a slave at first.. there is no pass fail. we all fail. however we have been given a chance to serve God rather than sin.

Consider all the people throughout history who have lived and died. It’s a number that completely dwarfs the number of people alive at present, more on that later. Now consider how many of those people likely passed the test.

far more make it to heaven than religious people would have you believe.

Keep in mind that God murdered entire cities for doing so poorly on the test he didn’t even wait until they died to send them to forever-hell (not just non-existence like the time before birth, but eternal punishment for a finite life).

Actually the bible supports soul destruction by hell fire.

I think it’s safe to say the vast majority of people who have lived and died here did NOT pass the test for one reason or another. After all, it’s easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle etc etc…

that passage explains how hard it is for rich people to get to heaven. Your looking for broad is the road to destruction it is easily found and traveled, harsh and narrow is the path to salvation, as not many find it.

Setting that aside for a moment, consider the fact that the majority of people alive at the moment are not Christians.

no where in the bible does it say only people who hold the title Christian get into Heaven. it says I(Jesus) am the way truth and life, no man comes to the father/heaven but through Him. meaning Jesus is the judge of who is and is not christian it is not something we get to award ourselves with. matter of fact Jesus says many who claim to know Him (meaning those who call them selves christian aren't) they will come to him on that last day and say lord lord did we not do many wonderful things in your name? he will answer them away from me evil doers I Never Knew You!
So that means calling yourself christian is not the key to salvation. also as far as non christian being omitted into Heaven the bible is full of examples of righteous men that God Himself has groomed and prepped, do you think He would send men like Daniel Moses Abraham Isaac joseph ect to Hell? look at their religions. While there are Jews among them some lived before the law and even before there was a chosen people which mean men like abraham and those who lived before could have come from what we would discard as false religions. Yet God looks on these men with favor. Even if the church/our religion does not. that begs the question how many other people not of christianity will jesus allow in? I can't imagine it is a lot, but I also know heaven is not limited to christianity or definitely not one form of it!

God must be very disappointed (again…more) because Christianity, while being a major world religion, is totally eclipsed by the other major religions, population-wise.

actually buddhism has been around longer and islam's numbers are close to ours.

That isn’t even counting the atheists and the I’m-not-sures. So, God doesn’t get what he wants?

God wants only those who want to serve Him.

Why?

because he has an infinate universe todo something with, those in whom he can trust.

Because free-will is more important?

As i point out in another thread there is no free will. "free will is a 6th greek construct. the bible never says we have 'free will.' matter of fact in mat 8 Jesus says we are all slaves to sin. who have been given a singular choice and that is to serve God and eventually become apart of the family.

Seriously, God’s success rate looks very, very low –

QUALITY is the goal not quantity.

like an idea that appears good in theory but fails in execution.

why? because worthless murders cheats liars and rapists get cast aside? Imagine if you could plan the perfect community. Now who would you populate it with? taliban? people from ISIS? what about any radical islamist? So about 1/3 of the living world is not allowed in your 'progressive community.. now what about the average no god having rapist or murder? Rape is such a narrowly defined term in the west, most underdeveloped countries would condone 1/2 if not more of what we consider rape. As in most places still women are second class and their willing for sex is not the top consideration... You just can't dip your pen in someone else's ink if it were.. in some asian countries that is the definition of rape. So what now 1/2 to maybe 5/8 of the planet are not welcome in your community? wow, I guess by your judgement of God your own ability to create and sustain a viable all inclusive community would be more like an elitist club.

He even had to drown ALL of us at one point because things were going so badly.

because 'we' were not the only thing running around on the planet at the time.

This is the etch-a-sketch version of creation. This is the absent watch-maker which, sadly, makes more sense to me every day.

because you have been programmed to look for an absent watch maker. if you are taught everything in the world point to an absent watch maker then that is what you will see.

People say they have experienced the hand of God in their lives, but all I see is coincidence. It’s a thing, guys. It happens.

So does God.

Free-will obviously existed before we did, if the Bible is to be believed.

if you are wrong at an essential like free will how do you know that the rest of your version of God is right?

God already created a cadre of angels, seemingly on a ranking system since Lucifer was the main dude in charge. But Lucifer, having intimate knowledge of God’s omniscience and power, figured he could challenge God and win? Wait, what? Was he stupid? How am I supposed to believe that?

muhammad ali, mike tyson, george foreman All were thought to be absolutely unbeatable at their heights.. so why did any one challenge them? because in short they wanted what the champ had more than the idea that what they beat was impossible to beat.

Think a slave uprising which is closer to the point. Imagine you being apart of a troop of slaves in america who stood up and said no more. despite the masters will, the law enforcement, the local militia, the federal army, and the will of "the people." all of whom they had to over come. the question would be where woud they go how would they live what would they eat? yet the stood up anyway! why? with all of that against them why would they stand up?
Because for them it was better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven.

Make no bones about it. you are a slave to sin which offers the illusion of imediate freedom.. or you are a slave to God in which your 'freedom' may seem a ways off.

And to make matters worse, ONE THIRD of God’s soldiers followed Lucifer?

not all were soldiers. angel means messenger.. more like pizza delivery guys.. a bunch get stoned and decide they don't want to make deliveries anymore they want to just hang out smoke pot and play video games. along comes satan and says join me and you can do whatever you like. there doesn't need to be ill will to god to be a lazy sob who wants to play video games instead of doing what he is supposed to be doing.

But again God is looking for quality to fill his ranks not quantity. even after flushing out all the haters and losers 2/3rds remained.

So even within God’s own angels he has a failing grade: 66.6% is an F+.

wow that's where 666 comes from..

If God is so awesome (in the real context of that word) why would his creations rebel?

why do kids who have been given everything rebell? what do they have to rebel from? why do most kids who have been brought up broke but learn values and love honor their fathers and mothers when they have so much to rebel about??

Because free-will? That makes NO sense to me.

good because it is not a thing. free will is an exercise that shows an all loving God can not exist. they rebel some on principle. most I think because they were sold on an easier life, just like you/we are.

I would happily give up free will to get out of this place (earth).

see? What you call free will in this place earth is call by Jesus Himself slavery to sin or to God. Satan offers freedom from that. you just bought the same lie he has been selling everyone. and the final show down isn't for a very long long time.

It's like buying a house in the early 2000 with an ARM rate they would loan you 500K even if you could not afford it the would give you an arm rate which was like interest only for like 4 years which would be like 500 buck a month, and the gamble was to refi the house before the rate ballooned into 10,000 a month for 20 years. For satan to challenge God is the same as buying a home you know you can afford but the crazy payments have been deferred.. you may not be able to pay those payments but until the rate balloons you get to live like a king! Now if this smooth talker with this crazy big house and all the answers says you can lve like me, just cast off your chains... there will never be a reckoning.. what do you do if you feel like your stuck at your job?

You already admitted you are ready to go and havent even heard the offer yet.

 

[drich0150]

continued:

To sum up: God created lots of angels, then 33% of them left, figuring they could beat God.

not beat, but get away with what they wanted to do.

Then God created an unthinkable number of human beings for the specific purpose of populating hell forever, as punishment for their finite lives.

bet you can't find 1 verse that says this will happen.. not one. yes it says fire is forever the worm is forever SATAN will burn forever, but nothing about us burning forever lest you use a catholic/vulgate bible which has nothing to do with the original greek version the holy bibles use. Every single mention of us and hell speaks of our second death.. now if God were fair and I believe he is our time in hell would mirror a prision sentence. the more wicked the longer you burn.

He knew what he was doing and what would happen. This constitutes the vast majority of the entire human race, living and dead, which really looks like failure (or, at the very least not love) to me. And lastly, our only guide comes in the form of an ancient book, written by ancient people in antiquated languages (classical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek) which have NO PUNCTUATION, VERB TENSE OR EVEN SPACES BETWEEN WORDS. In Greek, you can’t tell the difference between

that is not true.

God is now here

And

God is nowhere

Because what you're looking at is Godisnowhere. Or maybe it's "God I Snow Here". You don't know.

this is what I meant by trained to look for an absent watch maker.
You never even questioned any of this you just gobbled it all up because it allows you to leave God.
You btw are taking ques from hebrew and aramic in that there is no punctuation in the classic hebrew but there are verb tenses, aramic can be a jumble because it is not a sanction/not an official language. it is like creole or injun it was a mixmash of many languages. koine greek however was an offical langage with nearly all the same charasticis of modern greek.
The following excerpt, the beginning of the Gospel of John, is rendered in a reconstructed pronunciation representing a progressive popular variety of Koiné in the early Christian era.[29] Modernizing features include the loss of vowel length distinction, monophthongization, transition to stress accent, and raising of η to /i/. Also seen here are the bilabial fricative pronunciation of diphthongs αυ and ευ, loss of initial /h/, fricative values for β and γ, and partial post-nasal voicing of voiceless stops.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν. ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων. καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν.
[ˈen arˈkʰi in o ˈloɣos, ke o ˈloɣos im bros to(n) tʰeˈo(n), ke tʰeˈos in o ˈloɣos. ˈutos in en arˈkʰi pros to(n) tʰeˈo(n). ˈpanda di aɸˈtu eˈjeneto, ke kʰoˈris aɸˈtu eˈjeneto ude ˈen o ˈjeɣonen. en aɸˈto zoˈi in, ke i zoˈi in to pʰos ton anˈtʰropon; ke to pʰos en di skoˈtia ˈpʰeni, ke i skoˈti(a) a(ɸ)ˈto u kaˈtelaβen]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek
top koine middle moden bottom english

There’s a reason why “It’s all Greek to me” is an expression. The result: A crazy long book we have no hope of understanding unless we are fluent in classical Hebrew, ancient Aramaic and Greek, and can time-travel in order to understand the social context of all these documents when they were written.

I smell a professors distinct funk, after he scrambles a mind with uncheck facts. I love doing this..
It may have been a direct translation of a similar phrase in Latin: "Graecum est; non legitur" ("it is Greek, [therefore] it cannot be read"). This phrase was increasingly used by monk scribes in the Middle Ages, as knowledge of the Greek alphabet and language was dwindling among those who were copying manuscripts in monastic libraries.[citation needed]

Recorded usage of the metaphor in English traces back to the early modern period. It appears in 1599 in Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar, as spoken by Servilius Casca to Cassius after a festival in which Caesar was offered a crown:

CASSIUS: Did Cicero say any thing?

CASCA: Ay, he spoke Greek.
CASSIUS: To what effect?

CASCA: Nay, an I tell you that, I'll ne'er look you i' the face again: but those that understood him smiled at one another and shook their heads; but, for mine own part, it was Greek to me. I could tell you more news too: Marullus and Flavius, for pulling scarfs off Caesar's images, are put to silence. Fare you well. There was more foolery yet, if I could remember it.

— William Shakespeare, The Tragedy of Julius Caesar (1599)

So where did the term come from? a shakespearen play
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me

The book is so vague and open to misinterpretation it seems unlikely anyone can decipher its original meaning.

only if you give yourself over to scrap book theology.. like most 'good christians.' meaning they want the bible to say something about say hell.. like you will burn forever in hell. so they take bits and pieces sometimes not even quoting a whole verse and take those words they highlight paste them all together to come up with something that tickles their own ears.

However. if you keep all of the verses in place and quote nothing short of a paragraph or even a chapter at a time the bible is very clear. in this regard you simply read it like a book!

That’s probably why there’s 150 different flavors of Christianity.

actually the number is 31K there are 31,000 and counting different forms of Christianity regerstered in the US. granted some amount little more than a family bible study group, but for whatever reason they decided to file as a 'christian church.' and no that is not the reason there are so many.

The reason we have so many different churches is because of the greatest commands. 1 Love the lord God with all of your heart mind Spirit and Strength. this one command demand we give our all. but here's the thing my all may not be as good as your all. maybe your all includes playing an instrument in a band will singing like an angel. while my all looks like a research paper being written.. so who's all is right? who's all should take center stage? well If i need quiet and time for deep thought, it would not be possible for me to give my all while you were rocking out. So we split. sometime it is so we can be with like minded people and other because we can comphend and or can not forgive. so we split again and again and again. who is right? none of us has it 100%, but that's the thing in God's community there is room for error. if there is room for outright rebelliousness in sin to be forgiven there is more than enough forgiveness to forgive the brother doing his best Giving God his all but falling short... unlike your community where you exclude bad people. God's version welcomes everyone willing to pledge themselves to Him. even the former ISIS member.

And furthermore, within this document, he calls us sheep.

glob, grod, gob.. because you are a sheep look at the crap you posted (unchecked about hebrew koine and aramaic) someone told you that and you ba baa baaa it first chance you got!

At least here God does not pretend you are something else. if God knows you are a sheep then whether you know it or not you will be most happy in a green pasture beside still water. you can pretend to be something else but that hole that needs that green grass will never be filled by anything else. why? that is how you were designed!

I don’t know if you’ve ever been around sheep, but they are the dumbest things ever to walk the earth. Astoundingly stupid. How could us sheep ever decipher the Bible in any meaningful way? If God is Love, I don’t feel it, I don’t see it, and believe me, I’m looking.

I really want to believe like I did before, but too many things just make no sense to me. Baaaaaaa.

God is not love, at least not how you understand the word.. God is agape
Agape give the sheep a pasture not a what it think it wants.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

 

[drich0150]

Ever hear the parable of the wise and foolish builder?

You seem to be someone who likes ocean front property. like as close as you can get to the ocean.

In the parable imagine the house we build is our faith is all of our church works beliefs and deeds all rolled up into a single structure.. Now the foundation in the parable is key. the rock repersents the truth about God.. meaning if you are worshiping the true version of the God of the bible your house/ your religious life can stand the storms God send our way. However if you build on the beach and God send a cat 5 hurricane to test what you beleve based on sunday school and religion (meaning you never sought God in the bible) according to Christ your faith will fall down around you when tested.

This sound like what happened to you.

Life/God's storm showed up and tested yur religion your version of God. you cried out and because your version of God was not real... no one showed up. why? well, could you imagine what would happen if the real God showed up and you had fake religious god in mind? you would be thanking religious god in the ways you were taught religious god sought thanks.. who know maybe kitty doesn't make it to christmas this year..

So bottom line the God of the bible does not respond to you. so you automatically think well if I got it wrong... there can't be a god... never mind you could just be the foolish man who built his house on the sand and it all came down around you..

How can I say this? I just spent 2 hours correcting what should be basic christianity. ALL of it was wrong. none of it can be found in the bible the way you describes it. therefore religious god not the God the bible describes. Again the key to telling the two apart is scrap book theology. if 10 verses and or verse fragments are compiled and read as if it appeared in the same place, then that is religious god/building on sand. if you are quoting a single paragraph or even whole chapter that is an attribute of the God of the bible of his church.

So here is where we measure your pride. do you gather up your building material and find the rock and start building on that??? or do you move to a sturder looking house down the beach?

 

[holo]

Humanity is bad, but try
To notice some of the beautiful things people do.

With free will it is about seeing the really good along with the really bad. Without free will there would really be no good or choice to be good

I don't get this argument. Surely Adam and Eve could perceive that things were good before they got the choice to ruin it? I don't see why suffering (say, when the nazis hanged children in "anti-partisan operations") is somehow necessary for us to love or appreciate goodness. It's like the "if there is a heaven there must also be a hell" argument. I just don't see how that follows.

Also, in heaven there can be no sin, right? But then there can be no free will in heaven either, because free will would include the option to sin.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't get this argument. Surely Adam and Eve could perceive that things were good before they got the choice to ruin it? I don't see why suffering (say, when the nazis hanged children in "anti-partisan operations") is somehow necessary for us to love or appreciate goodness. It's like the "if there is a heaven there must also be a hell" argument. I just don't see how that follows.

Also, in heaven there can be no sin, right? But then there can be no free will in heaven either, because free will would include the option to sin.

...well, actually, the Holocaust played some part (is did some other surprising intercultural influences) in finally bringing about (...or forcing the consideration of, really) the development of Civil Right for African Americans [and women] in the U.S.

Think about that.

But in the case of the story of Adam and Eve, the context does indicate to us that neither of them understood the significance of Good vs. Evil. What they perceived before they ate the forbidden fruit was that they were in an existence where the world was simply what the world was, which was at that point essentially a place where every Godly provision could be found without lack.

 

[holo]

...well, actually, the Holocaust played some part (is did some other surprising intercultural influences) in finally bringing about (...or forcing the consideration of, really) the development of Civil Right for African Americans [and women] in the U.S.

Think about that.

But in the case of the story of Adam and Eve, the context does indicate to us that neither of them understood the significance of Good vs. Evil. What they perceived before they ate the forbidden fruit was that they were in an existence where the world was simply what the world was, which was at that point essentially a place where every Godly provision could be found without lack.

I understand that we appreciate goodness by contrasting it with evil, but I don't see why all this actual pain and suffering is somehow necessary for us to do that, or for us to have free will.

Yes, the holocaust (and everything else that has ever happened) contributed to making the world as is it today, but does that mean God couldn't have directed history differently?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Someone lied to you.

I really want to believe like I did before, but too many things just make no sense to me. Baaaaaaa.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I understand that we appreciate goodness by contrasting it with evil, but I don't see why all this actual pain and suffering is somehow necessary for us to do that, or for us to have free will.

As always, that's a good question, and it's impactful regardless of who poses it.

Even from a Christian perspective, I agree with you that it is often very difficult to see 'why' there has to be all of the actual pain and suffering in the world that there is. However, to apply askance upon Christian theology for the ills of the world isn't to actually identify any theological locus which resides within that theology or to spot precisely where it seems to insist to us that we all MUST BE undergo pain and suffering as a part of our redemption. It could be that we are supposed to suffer for our sins, but frankly, I'm not seeing anything in the Bible that says that pain and suffering is necessary in order for us to appreciate "the Good." Rather, from what I see in the Bible, pain and suffering exist for all of us because we all more or less insist on maintaining societies that operate on our own rebellious terms, terms that while keeping order still promote and harbor various forms of ill will toward one another and toward God.

Did some Christian tell you that this is the case, or is this an outcome of your own line of reasoning as it has thus far come? (holo, keep in mind, I'm just asking this so we can think about it more deeply together; this isn't a challenge that I'm making and tossing at you. ...I'm mean, really, all of this pain and suffering is stuff we all have to contend with and...it sucks. And the best we can do is talk about it and hopefully achieve some positive or constructive insights about what it all means.)

Yes, the holocaust (and everything else that has ever happened) contributed to making the world as is it today, but does that mean God couldn't have directed history differently?

I don't know. There's a prior question, I think, that comes before the question you're asking here: SHOULD God have directed history differently? Is it actually His responsibility to direct history in such a way that we would all easily be able to see and deem His direction as being 'beneficent' in nature? I'm not sure that it is God's responsibility, or at least I think that the Bible's epistemic and ontological indicia tells us that God somehow doesn't think it is ALL His responsbility; that He thinks that some of the responsibility lies with us, and we refuse to do what is needed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I understand that we appreciate goodness by contrasting it with evil, but I don't see why all this actual pain and suffering is somehow necessary for us to do that, or for us to have free will.

Yes, the holocaust (and everything else that has ever happened) contributed to making the world as is it today, but does that mean God couldn't have directed history differently?

Pain and suffering are promised and necessary. (by Yahweh , in the Bible, for believers)
In Hebrews et al, we are to rejoice in the fiery trials/ suffering/ even the pain
as this is what Yahweh uses ON PURPOSE to create IN US the character of Christ, pure and holy and righteous and trusting and faithfully proven better than gold!
To "wean us away from selfish sinful living and desires, to God's Way that is right and good and true and wholesome" (paraphrased)

In fact, Jesus says "Woe (damned/judged/condemned) are you who are comfortable now...." and with many other words shows this is truth.

 

[Chinchilla]

I was raised in a devout Christian household. I believed. I prayed. I had faith. I was also very young. Later, once I had gained a more sophisticated intellect, I began to notice that what I believe did not match up with what I was seeing every day, and what I knew of human history (horrible and disgusting).

Everyone seems to agree on the premise that God loves us, and desires to be with us forever. But in order to be with him, you have to go through a pass/fail test called life. Consider all the people throughout history who have lived and died. It’s a number that completely dwarfs the number of people alive at present, more on that later. Now consider how many of those people likely passed the test. Keep in mind that God murdered entire cities for doing so poorly on the test he didn’t even wait until they died to send them to forever-hell (not just non-existence like the time before birth, but eternal punishment for a finite life). I think it’s safe to say the vast majority of people who have lived and died here did NOT pass the test for one reason or another. After all, it’s easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle etc etc…

Setting that aside for a moment, consider the fact that the majority of people alive at the moment are not Christians. God must be very disappointed (again…more) because Christianity, while being a major world religion, is totally eclipsed by the other major religions, population-wise. That isn’t even counting the atheists and the I’m-not-sures. So, God doesn’t get what he wants? Why? Because free-will is more important? Seriously, God’s success rate looks very, very low – like an idea that appears good in theory but fails in execution. He even had to drown ALL of us at one point because things were going so badly. This is the etch-a-sketch version of creation. This is the absent watch-maker which, sadly, makes more sense to me every day. People say they have experienced the hand of God in their lives, but all I see is coincidence. It’s a thing, guys. It happens.

Free-will obviously existed before we did, if the Bible is to be believed. God already created a cadre of angels, seemingly on a ranking system since Lucifer was the main dude in charge. But Lucifer, having intimate knowledge of God’s omniscience and power, figured he could challenge God and win? Wait, what? Was he stupid? How am I supposed to believe that? And to make matters worse, ONE THIRD of God’s soldiers followed Lucifer? So even within God’s own angels he has a failing grade: 66.6% is an F+. If God is so awesome (in the real context of that word) why would his creations rebel? Because free-will? That makes NO sense to me. I would happily give up free will to get out of this place (earth).

To sum up: God created lots of angels, then 33% of them left, figuring they could beat God. Then God created an unthinkable number of human beings for the specific purpose of populating hell forever, as punishment for their finite lives. He knew what he was doing and what would happen. This constitutes the vast majority of the entire human race, living and dead, which really looks like failure (or, at the very least not love) to me. And lastly, our only guide comes in the form of an ancient book, written by ancient people in antiquated languages (classical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek) which have NO PUNCTUATION, VERB TENSE OR EVEN SPACES BETWEEN WORDS. In Greek, you can’t tell the difference between

God is now here

And

God is nowhere

Because what you're looking at is Godisnowhere. Or maybe it's "God I Snow Here". You don't know.

There’s a reason why “It’s all Greek to me” is an expression. The result: A crazy long book we have no hope of understanding unless we are fluent in classical Hebrew, ancient Aramaic and Greek, and can time-travel in order to understand the social context of all these documents when they were written. The book is so vague and open to misinterpretation it seems unlikely anyone can decipher its original meaning. That’s probably why there’s 150 different flavors of Christianity. And furthermore, within this document, he calls us sheep. I don’t know if you’ve ever been around sheep, but they are the dumbest things ever to walk the earth. Astoundingly stupid. How could us sheep ever decipher the Bible in any meaningful way? If God is Love, I don’t feel it, I don’t see it, and believe me, I’m looking.

I really want to believe like I did before, but too many things just make no sense to me. Baaaaaaa.

Was thinking the same thing . Was it really worth it to create humankind at all ?
Second tought is that God claims to do everything perfect , can't really see how this is the best it could be , like couldn't he simply come faster to die for sins before all these major wars and stuff ?

I'm glad that after Christ paid for the sins we are in time of grace and saved freely without following laws , if it was not for Christ's payment for sins then cities like New Yok , Pattaya and Los Angeles should end up like Sodom and Gommorah .


We will never understand how God works untill we go to heaven and find out ourselfes , it's just matter of fact if he exists or not . Yes Christ said majority people will go to hell and only few will find the way .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...
I'm glad that after Christ paid for the sins we are in time of grace and saved freely without following laws , if it was not for Christ's payment for sins then cities like New Yok , Pattaya and Los Angeles should end up like Sodom and Gommorah .

"without following laws" as in lawless as in with the lawless one ?

As for the cities , they do end up like Sodom and Gomorrah. (partly or totally due to the same kind of lawlessness)

 

[Gell]

You know, you don’t have to compare yourself to a sheep, unless you really believe you want to. The sheep flock is like a comparison to the children of God since people during Jesus’ times exactly knew what He meant when He said that.
I’ll just say this, God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Were you there when He created the world? Do you know the heart of God?
He does not need a human to defend Him because He does what He pleases. He alone is good. No one can fully comprehend His works.

 

[Loren T.]

My problem is: God, being all powerful, creates things with their own free will. Every time he does this, free will takes over, and God loses them. Lots of them. Sometimes, most of them. Free will must be pretty important, considering what a truly horrible creation humanity turned out to be.

I don't have time to read all the replies, so I'll just state the obvious: It's better to have a few people love you freely than to have everyone follow you because you made them like you. How can someone love you if they have no other choice?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My problem is: God, being all powerful, creates things with their own free will. Every time he does this, free will takes over, and God loses them. Lots of them. Sometimes, most of them. Free will must be pretty important, considering what a truly horrible creation humanity turned out to be.

The solution (not the problem) is God is all powerful, always the same, unchanging forever past to forever future, uncreated and unending.
Men are NOT born with free will today. They are born subject to the god of this world (hasatan, the devil). Most stay his slaves and die never being born again or saved.

God doesn't "lose" them - HE never had them to lose them. They have always been His enemy since before they are born even (or shortly after they are born if need be to put it that way) .

God doesn't lose most of them - they are all not His, gone astray, unbelievers all their lives.

Free will is VERY RARE and YES< EXPENSIVE BEYOND you wildest dreams and imagination.

"Humanity" has been a disaster, but it was not a horrible creation, no. Creation was perfect, and God's Solution for anyone who manages to come to Him is perfect.
The rest perish.

 

[drich0150]

I don't have time to read all the replies, so I'll just state the obvious: It's better to have a few people love you freely than to have everyone follow you because you made them like you. How can someone love you if they have no other choice?

the word is Agape not love. I say that because Agape and love are almost the oppsite ends of the same idea. Love in this culture is almost exclusively know to the greeks as Eros.(passionate love which as you pointed out we choose) with a nod to Storge' (which is a familial type of love which we do not choose/ father son ect) Agape' is love born of respect and honor. it is more of a band of brothers type of love a love hard proven through combat. it is not a choice but a duty or honor to love be respected this way and give such respect!

Also one does not choose this love it is awarded. We give God this love because He first gave it to us. through the atonement provided through Christ. We do this not as free men but as slave being freed or given the opportunity of being free men.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No. The Love of Yahweh, the Love we are told we have in Jesus, is a CHOICE of the WILL. A choice, not a feeling, not an emotion.

 

[Loren T.]

the word is Agape not love. I say that because Agape and love are almost the oppsite ends of the same idea. Love in this culture is almost exclusively know to the greeks as Eros.(passionate love which as you pointed out we choose) with a nod to Storge' (which is a familial type of love which we do not choose/ father son ect) Agape' is love born of respect and honor. it is more of a band of brothers type of love a love hard proven through combat. it is not a choice but a duty or honor to love be respected this way and give such respect!

Also one does not choose this love it is awarded. We give God this love because He first gave it to us. through the atonement provided through Christ. We do this not as free men but as slave being freed or given the opportunity of being free men.

Agape love is the highest form of love, and God extended this love to the entire human race. When we choose to trust God and believe in his name, we become his children. John 1:12
God could have compelled us to have some form of affection for him, but that would never become real love.