Read is what is on page... you are coloring over what is being said here
This is not a simple subject, so I don't think I can cover it all in one post, but,
What is being said is that God loves all, so he sent his son to save them.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.…"
It says God loves the world, that is all of us. Yes, of course, being saved has the condition of belief.
1 John 4:9-11
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
"8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
2 Cor 5:15And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again.
so what happens if you do not believe? God Not I send you to Hell where you will perish. Again how is that love? how does burning someone to death indicate the same level of love for the one being burned alive by Hell fire, as allowing someone to live forever under you care? To say you love the one you are burning in hell fire is what is wraped.. that is what your doctrine says God loves the one he burns in Hell fire.. that is nuts how can you reconcile that?
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9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."
How can a holy God allow evil to remain in his presence for all eternity?
"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
God desires all to be saved and yet he will cast out those who aren't. Would it be loving to allow Hitler and Hitlers victims to share paradise? Would it be loving for any unrepentant sinner to be present in the same place where the people he mistreated in life are?
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Of course, it's hard to put these two thoughts together for us mere humans.
The following is an excerpt from a blog post I did about hell:
"Hell makes us squirm, for a couple of reasons, I think. First, we know deep down that we don’t deserve paradise. We know we can be selfish and ugly and evil. But, hopefully it’s not just for ourselves that we dislike hell. We don’t want anyone we love to go there either. And thankfully, Jesus agrees. He is not willing that any should perish. At the same time, he warns us that many will. You might think of it this way: God is at least as merciful as you are and probably a lot more so. Would you pardon a mass murderer just because he confessed and repented? I don’t know that I would, but I’m convinced God would. I suspect there are a whole lot of people I’m not willing to die for. But Jesus died for every one of them. Whether they accept that is another question.
Think of the woman who was able to pity her molester. Doesn’t that leave you rather slack jawed with awe? I would at least want to beat him with a baseball bat. Only a little bit, of course. To say “Father forgive them.” while you are still hanging from the nails they pounded through your wrists? That is the heart of God.
“The hell”, I can hear the skeptic saying. “If they don’t turn, he’s going to burn them!”
So, there’s the rub. You don’t like the fact that forgiveness has a condition? That we only get redemption at the price of what? Our pride of course. What else would you expect it to be? Pride is always the root of evil."
I'm not going to post the whole blog post, just the parts that seem relevant here:
"If hell seems a little extreme to us, we probably aren’t taking evil very seriously, whether it’s our own evil or someone elses. I suppose we don’t really think our sin is all that bad, or that somehow God has not done enough to reveal himself to people. In other words, we judge him to be unfair. We secretly or blatantly wonder if he couldn’t just pardon everyone, with no conditions. Believe in everything or believe in nothing and still get paradise. That seems to be the universalist’s bottom line.
Do we want that? Really? Do we really think a non repentant Hitler could stand in the presence of God? That an unrepentant Charles Manson would even want to give worship to the Almighty? But of course, you’re not a Hitler or a Manson. You are just a normal sinner. Of course, Jesus says if you’ve thought it, it’s technically the same thing. Murder in the heart is just as bad, it’s just not acted out for one reason or another. Here’s the thing: if you refuse God’s love and pardon, I don’t think you would want to be in Glory. Because without love, we are just left with ego and selfish ambition. I don’t see how heaven can exist for the person who rejects such great love. Heaven would be hell for them. To be in the holy of holies and still hold onto your unholy pride? I think God’s presence would burn instead of soothe.
And of course, if you have any sense of justice, any iota of mercy for the victims of hate in this world, you would not want them to see the faces of their unrepentant tormentors forever. God separates the wheat from the chaff, the sheep from the goats, because they can’t grow together for eternity. There’s a time when it’s too late for a goat to become a sheep. That’s what this life is for. And there can actually be a great deal of comfort in knowing that evil will finally get it’s due. That you will no longer be at war with yourself and that we will “Shed the sins and sorrows we’ve carried all these years.” What a beautiful picture, this throwing off of all the weight that bows us down, all the struggles, all the sins that we still cling to. The tormentors become the tormented. That is justice, not hate. It’s not God being a bully, it’s him giving us exactly what we acted like we wanted. Hell isn’t so scary when viewed from this perspective. It’s the inevitable end to a story that starts with a dragon sneaking into Eden and stealing our innocence. For Eden to return, the dragon and all that have his heart must be banished. Only then is balance restored, justice served, and love can reign unhindered."
I hope this sheds some light on how God can be both loving and bring righteous judgement on those who reject him. Incidentally, I don't know that hell is literal fire:
"So, I’ve said all this and not really answered the question of what hell looks like. I’m not sure I’m qualified to give a total answer, but: Johnathan Edwards was convinced that hellfire had to be literal to hurt. But how could hell, being prepared for spirit beings, the devil and his angels, be literal fire? And wouldn’t fire just burn you up and that would be the end of it? The actual descriptions Jesus gives for hell vary a bit. A place outside of the wedding feast, a dark place, or a firely place or a place where the worm doesn’t die. A junk heap where fire always smokes and smolders. I think the most disturbing picture, if you really think about it, is that God is inside with the folks at the feast and you are outside, out of his presence. That might not sound so bad unless you realize that you have never been outside his presence anywhere on earth. Now, I know I already said that God is everywhere present. And there is some debate as to whether God can be truly absent from anyplace that exists. But, at the least, I think it’s safe to say that he removes all the good that results from his actions. On this earth, even the ungodly get cucumbers. (This is kind of a joke I have tossed around in discussions with those who believe Jesus only died for a pre chosen, elect few.) The response is usually that they still get the good things of this world, which is true as far as it goes. But to get fresh cucumbers once in awhile but not the chance to experience redemption is not much comfort. But, in hell, you don’t even get cucumbers. Or love or companionship or comfort or beauty. Or any of the things that make life worth living on this planet. Actual pain from flame that soon burns you up, might seem preferable, but those who see hell as annihilation are really stretching to get there. Maybe that could be a topic for another post. An inner pain of eternal grief over one’s foolishness is more likely the reality.
If you still have the nagging sensation that hell is unfair, perhaps you will consider this:
1John 1:
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
No darkness at all. No capacity for wickedness, or cruelty or for being unloving. When we decide to judge God for bringing justice to the world, we decide that God is in someway wicked and that we have the capacity to know better than him what is truly loving. A lot of people try to reinterpret or overlook Jesus’ teaching on hell. The irony is, they are doing exactly what the serpent did in the garden. “Did God really say…”
Would God really wipe out all of humanity because their imaginations were only evil all the time, as happened in Genesis? That’s what scripture says. And it shouldn’t in any way negate the pure, unselfish, merciful love of a God who would lay down his life for all of us. Can you imagine a world where every thought of everyone was always evil? When people flippantly accuse God’s judgment of being unfair, I wonder if they truly think about what kind of world that would be. We think we have seen evil, but never to that extent. We tend to think each generation is the most evil one yet. If you believe your Bible, you can’t logically think that way. Do you even know one person who is totally evil every moment of every day? I can’t say I do. And still, God gave the people an extra 120 years to repent before sending the flood. (at least that’s how I read that verse.) And he is staying his hand today to give people a chance to do the same.
There is a common theme today I see in a lot of blogs and writings, that God looks like Jesus. Always. And I agree, but some of the people who say that will also do their best to pull the teeth of the Lion of Judah. They would see him as never running out of patience and slaying the wicked, no matter what Revelations says. Or never teaching of hell, in spite of the fact that he talked about it more than anyone else in the Bible. If you find parts of the Book hard to understand, rest assured, there is no darkness in him. If he judges people unworthy, then they are past any chance for redemption. If he sends them to the pit, it’s not because he has a dark side, but that he knows their hearts and would protect his own from their corruption. He knows who has ultimately chosen to be fool and who has decided to be a sheep. If you can’t understand his ways, trust his heart. His heart is always good."
what do you do with passages like where God tells moses I will have mercy on whom I will to have mercy and I will have compassion on those whom I wish compassion? What do you do with all of
romans 9? where points out that God set up the whole people of egypt by hardening the heart of pharaoh for the 10 plague to be extra bad across the whole land of egypt only sparing his believers again!
Ex 33:12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”
15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”
17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”
21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
I read the whole passage, instead of picking a verse out of context. This is one of the most non Calvinist passages anywhere. Moses bargains with God and God changes his mind.
Romans is one of my favorite books in the whole Bible. I've probably studied it more than any other. Read the whole thing and tell me what Paul is talking about and who is he talking to most of the time? One hint...In Romans nine, He is explaining to a rebellious Jew how God can use Israel's rebellion to bring salvation to the gentiles...you probably think this chapter is about you, don't you, don't you...
