Can sinning can be overcome?

[NightEternal]

Amen Woo--I'm so very tired of the mindless White bashers who only know about her from the anti-White web sites but have never actually read ONE book of hers. Thank you Woo.

Actually, I have probably read more books by her than you.

Who is generalizing now?

Still waiting to see evidence that I have ever bashed EGW anywhere on this forum.

 

[woobadooba]

Night,

when you first came here you showed yourself to be quite rude and hateful.

When confronted on these things you repented. Now you are doing it all over again.

When will it stop?

I will no longer respond to any of your posts, except to report them when they are in violation of the rules.

If you won't stop being mean to people in here, the moderators will deal with it.

You will either stop doing this, or you will be stopped from doing it. Either way it will come to an end.

 

[NightEternal]

Night,

when you first came here you showed yourself to be quite rude and hateful.

I was a little over the top, but I was making things personal then. I have apologized for that.

When confronted on these things you repented. Now you are doing it all over again.

No, I'm not. I am exclusively trying to only attack ideas and doctrine now, which happens in any forum debate. That is allowed and I will excercise my right to do it.

When will it stop?

It never started again.

I will no longer respond to any of your posts,

Is that a threat or a promise?

except to report them when they are in violation of the rules.

Fine. That is your right. I don't mind being held accountable, but I will not bow to attempts by you or anyone else here to censor or approve what I want to discuss. That is not your choice to make nor do you have the authourity to enforce it. If the mods see fit to declare any of my forum topics off-limits, I will submit to thier discretion.

If you won't stop being mean to people in here, the moderators will deal with it.

The moderators are not the papal police force you want to portray them as. Thank God for that.

As for being mean, if attacking ideas and theology is mean, then we have centuries of Christian apologetics and debate to apologize for.

You will either stop doing this, or you will be stopped from doing it. Either way it will come to an end.

Woobadooba, you are such a drama queen. Lighten up already.

_______________________________________________

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Roy Adams wrote a book a few years back dealing with the various segments of Adventism and aptly called his book "the Nature of Christ" He tried to be balanced, so far so that I think he blunted a lot of points he should have made clearer. But it appears that it was enough that the more traditionalist of Adventist still think the book is heresy. I use traditionalist because at least a fundamentalist says they are staying with Biblical fundamentals. The fallen human nature of Christ cannot be derived from the Bible. It is taken from some of Ellen Whites comments while ignoring other Ellen White comments. Which kind of explains why this controversy continues in the SDA church yet does not hardly exist in the wider Christian community.

A good review of the book is available, one of the paragraphs says the following:

I liked how Adams clarifies the issue of Christ’s fleshly nature: “If we can admit that Jesus was not like us on this crucial point (having our fleshly nature but not our passions) then it would be clearly ludicrous to maintain that He came exactly like us.” (p.35) Ellen White herself cautioned those in her time again and again to be careful, very careful, about how they set forth the human nature of Christ. He was not just like any other man-He was God in the flesh. We should never forget that. I also love how Adams exposes the subtle legalism that pervades the idea of the 144,000 achieving a state of absolute perfection. This pervasive doctrine has done more than any other to discourage and take away assurance of salvation from countless Adventists. Perfection as it is used here by John does not mean flawless behavior-rather it means to be complete in Christ. It is the attitude not the performance that is the focus here.

 

[NightEternal]

Good review. Very accurate.

Roy Adams is the man. It was highway robbery the way they bypassed him for the Review editorship in favor of Bill Knott.

I guess Adam's theology was too far off the party line to qualify for the position.

 

[reddogs]

NightEternal wrote:
This is false. Christ had the sinless, unfallen nature of Adam before the entrance of sin.
Your conclusion is not remotely Biblical. It is based upon EGW alone.

-----------------------------------------​

Your conclusion is correct NE - and supported both by scripture (John 14:30. "... the ruler (Prince) of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.", among others), and EGW. Sadly, most who argue from EGW do so by interpreting some of her writings the way the desire, even when in overall context, another interpretation is possible. But EGW strongly supported the sinless nature of Christ.​

I understand that not all accept her authority. But to set the record straight, I quote from Letter 8, 1895, as published in the EGW Comments section of the SDABC Vol.5 p.1128,9. She is referring to John 14:30, also Luke 1:31-35, 1 Cor. 15:22,45; and Heb.4:15.​

"Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of his sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ wass the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.​

"Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, 'Behold, thou shalt conceive in they womb, and bring forth a son,and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.'​

"These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points as man is tempted, yet He is called 'that holy thing'. It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but lete every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such a one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity was blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity.​

"I perceive that there is danger in approaching subjects which dwell on the humanity of the Son of the infinite God. He did humble Himself when He saw He was in fashion as a man, that He might understand the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset.​

"The first Adam fell; the second Adam held fast to God and His Word under the most trying of circumstance, and His faith in His Father's goodness, mercy, and love did not waver for one moment. 'It is written' was His weapon of resistance,and it is the sword of the Spirit which every human being is to use. 'Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me' - nothing to respond to temptation. On not one occasion was there a response to his manifold temptations. Not once did Christ step on Satan's ground, to give him anu advantage. Satan found nothing in Him to encourage his advances."​

Sound advice for us here. There are numerous other quotations that could be cited from EGW on the sinless nature of Christ. A few (in brief - check the ref for more detail):​

"Christ did not possess the same sinful, corrupt, fallen disloyalty we possess, for then He could not be a perfect offering."--Manuscript 94, 1893 (published in SM3, p131)​

"In the fullness of time Christ was to be revealed in human form. He was to assume the position of head of humanity by taking the nature, but not the sinfulness of man."--Letter 91, 1900, p. 6. (published in Manuscript Releases vol.9 p237.)​

My point is simply that EGW does not teach or support a fallen sinful nature in Christ. Weakened and diminished by 4000-odd years of sin, yes, human, yes, subject to all the pain, misery and suffering like us, yes. But without our sinfulness. She also repeatedly states that Christ in temptation passed over the same ground the first Adam did - proving Adam need never have fallen.​

Yes, a sinless nature as Adam, but the same propensity and choice as all flesh to sin, equal to us. I can accept that...

 

[reddogs]

My brothers,

Without a champion in the flesh, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ would be a farce. Satan claimed this earth on the basis of the fall of the flesh into sin, so God sent His Son to prove that the flesh could overcome sin. He came as our champion in the flesh and proved it in like manner, thus Satan thought he could keep him in the grave but he could not.

Romans 8:3-4
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[a] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[b] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[c] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

 

[Sophia7]

My brothers,

Without a champion in the flesh, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ would be a farce. Satan claimed this earth on the basis of the fall of the flesh into sin, so God sent His Son to prove that the flesh could overcome sin. He came as our champion in the flesh and proved it in like manner, thus Satan thought he could keep him in the grave but he could not.

Romans 8:3-4
3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[a] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[b] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[c] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

And this is the crux of the debate: fallen-nature advocates primarily emphasize Jesus' example in order to argue that we can overcome sin in the flesh because Jesus did. The problem with this is that human flesh can't overcome sin, and Jesus wasn't exactly like us. He was both God and man. His temptations were not exactly like ours. How many of us would be tempted to turn stones into bread or to throw ourselves off the pinnacle of the temple? Jesus' temptations were about using His divine power, which we obviously don't have, to avoid the suffering from which His humanity shrank but which He had to endure in carrying out His mission of salvation.

Here is a portion of an article from the Adventist Biblical Research Institute site, presenting the unfallen-nature position (and click here if you want a defense of the fallen-nature position, from the same site):

If Jesus must be sinful flesh to understand our struggles from experience, then how could He empathize with the dregs of the race? How could He save the generation plunged two thousand years further down into genetic degeneration? If His taking our sinful nature was prerequisite to His being tempted like us, then He should have come contemporary with the last man born. Yet, even if Jesus were a last-generation person, His contemporaries would still be more degraded because of their own sinning. If sinful nature is a necessary element of being tempted like us, then Christ wasn’t tempted like our generation and those degraded through personal sin. But if His uniqueness made His temptation greater, then He didn’t need our fallen nature to be tempted like us.

Not until His death did He, “who knew no sin,” become “sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21). Never before that moment did sin bring a separation from His Father, which caused Him to cry out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mat. 27:46). The man Jesus became sin for us in mission at death and not in nature at birth.

Doxology
Theology is a human quest to understand God’s self-revelation. Christology is the center and heart of theology, for Jesus Christ is the greatest revelation of God to man. He is also the best revelation of authentic man to man. Jesus Christ was unique not only as God with us but as man with us. He was sinless divinity united with sin-weakened human flesh, but He was equally sinless in both natures. He was God with us, but He lived as man with us in a complete self-emptying (see Phil. 2:7). While remaining God, He laid aside the use of His divine attributes, living as authentic man totally dependent upon His Father in heaven.

O wonder, ye inhabitants of the far-flung cosmos! Be amazed, ye angels in heaven! O worship Him, ye sinners on earth! For what other human, born of woman, can match this One in nature and deed? Who else gave up so much for so few? Who else became limited to one human body when He existed everywhere before? Who else chose to remain so limited forever? Who else plunged into sin’s inoperative, terminal cancer to bring radical healing and not become infected Himself? Who else could become a human physician while distancing himself from the human plague?

How could Jesus be my example in all these? How could I copy Him? How could I be eternal, be God, be sinless in birth, sinless as a baby, and sinless throughout life? How could I overcome all He overcame? And when He finally overcame Satan by His death at Calvary—which has cosmic and salvific consequences—how could I follow? Yes, I long to be like Him, but I admit that He is forever unique. With Peter I confess, “ ‘Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!’ ” (Luke 5:8, N.I.V.). Yet He in mercy says, “Come unto me” (Matt. 11:28). He draws me by His uniqueness. I desperately need that which makes Him different from me.

Christianity is not just to be like Him. Christianity is life in Him. We are righteous only in Christ, never in ourselves. The good news is more than “Copy me.” It is always first and foremost “Cling to me,” “Abide in me” (John 15:4), “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27), and “You are accepted in the Beloved” (see Eph. 1:6). True Christology ends, not in debate, but in grateful worship and joyful obedience. By beholding Him we not only praise Him but become like
Him (see 2 Cor. 3:18). To see His love for us, His unique love as a unique man, galvanizes us; we yearn more to be filled with Him than to be like Him. This focus is crucial. It is on Him and His works, and away from ourselves and our works. We do not just follow, we fellowship. It is not just rules, but relationship. Not just a practice, but a Person. For Christianity is Christ through and through. Out of this communion comes a marvelous wonder—we become like the One we admire the most! It is a natural by-product of longing to have Him dwell within. Christology climaxes in the exclamation “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Gal. 2:20). Only in this dependent union can Jesus be our model man—never in His nature at birth.
​

Lest anyone should misunderstand, I do not believe that the gospel of grace gives us a license to sin. Rather, it changes our whole perspective about sin and salvation. It shifts our focus from ourselves to Christ. Grace cost our Savior His life. True grace has never been cheap.

RO 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

RO 5:1 5 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

RO 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

RO 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

RO 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

RO 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
​

This passage puts the focus where it belongs, on Jesus' death, which has set us free from the slavemaster of sin. We are justified freely by His grace and set apart, sanctified by the Holy Spirit to live a new life in Christ. Our works don't save us; they are a result of the Spirit living in us.

 

[NightEternal]

And this is the crux of the debate: fallen-nature advocates primarily emphasize Jesus' example in order to argue that we can overcome sin in the flesh because Jesus did. The problem with this is that human flesh can't overcome sin, and Jesus wasn't exactly like us. He was both God and man. His temptations were not exactly like ours. How many of us would be tempted to turn stones into bread or to throw ourselves off the pinnacle of the temple? Jesus' temptations were about using His divine power, which we obviously don't have, to avoid the suffering from which His humanity shrank but which He had to endure in carrying out His mission of salvation.


Here is a portion of an article from the Adventist Biblical Research Institute site, presenting the unfallen-nature position (and click here if you want a defense of the fallen-nature position, from the same site):

If Jesus must be sinful flesh to understand our struggles from experience, then how could He empathize with the dregs of the race? How could He save the generation plunged two thousand years further down into genetic degeneration? If His taking our sinful nature was prerequisite to His being tempted like us, then He should have come contemporary with the last man born. Yet, even if Jesus were a last-generation person, His contemporaries would still be more degraded because of their own sinning. If sinful nature is a necessary element of being tempted like us, then Christ wasn’t tempted like our generation and those degraded through personal sin. But if His uniqueness made His temptation greater, then He didn’t need our fallen nature to be tempted like us.​

Not until His death did He, “who knew no sin,” become “sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21). Never before that moment did sin bring a separation from His Father, which caused Him to cry out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mat. 27:46). The man Jesus became sin for us in mission at death and not in nature at birth.​

Doxology​

Theology is a human quest to understand God’s self-revelation. Christology is the center and heart of theology, for Jesus Christ is the greatest revelation of God to man. He is also the best revelation of authentic man to man. Jesus Christ was unique not only as God with us but as man with us. He was sinless divinity united with sin-weakened human flesh, but He was equally sinless in both natures. He was God with us, but He lived as man with us in a complete self-emptying (see Phil. 2:7). While remaining God, He laid aside the use of His divine attributes, living as authentic man totally dependent upon His Father in heaven.​

O wonder, ye inhabitants of the far-flung cosmos! Be amazed, ye angels in heaven! O worship Him, ye sinners on earth! For what other human, born of woman, can match this One in nature and deed? Who else gave up so much for so few? Who else became limited to one human body when He existed everywhere before? Who else chose to remain so limited forever? Who else plunged into sin’s inoperative, terminal cancer to bring radical healing and not become infected Himself? Who else could become a human physician while distancing himself from the human plague?​

How could Jesus be my example in all these? How could I copy Him? How could I be eternal, be God, be sinless in birth, sinless as a baby, and sinless throughout life? How could I overcome all He overcame? And when He finally overcame Satan by His death at Calvary—which has cosmic and salvific consequences—how could I follow? Yes, I long to be like Him, but I admit that He is forever unique. With Peter I confess, “ ‘Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!’ ” (Luke 5:8, N.I.V.). Yet He in mercy says, “Come unto me” (Matt. 11:28). He draws me by His uniqueness. I desperately need that which makes Him different from me.​

Christianity is not just to be like Him. Christianity is life in Him. We are righteous only in Christ, never in ourselves. The good news is more than “Copy me.” It is always first and foremost “Cling to me,” “Abide in me” (John 15:4), “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27), and “You are accepted in the Beloved” (see Eph. 1:6). True Christology ends, not in debate, but in grateful worship and joyful obedience. By beholding Him we not only praise Him but become like​

Him (see 2 Cor. 3:18). To see His love for us, His unique love as a unique man, galvanizes us; we yearn more to be filled with Him than to be like Him. This focus is crucial. It is on Him and His works, and away from ourselves and our works. We do not just follow, we fellowship. It is not just rules, but relationship. Not just a practice, but a Person. For Christianity is Christ through and through. Out of this communion comes a marvelous wonder—we become like the One we admire the most! It is a natural by-product of longing to have Him dwell within. Christology climaxes in the exclamation “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Gal. 2:20). Only in this dependent union can Jesus be our model man—never in His nature at birth.​

​

Lest anyone should misunderstand, I do not believe that the gospel of grace gives us a license to sin. Rather, it changes our whole perspective about sin and salvation. It shifts our focus from ourselves to Christ. Grace cost our Savior His life. True grace has never been cheap.

RO 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.​

RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.​

RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.​

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.​

RO 5:1 5 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.​

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.​

RO 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.​

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.​

RO 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.​

RO 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.​

RO 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.​

​

This passage puts the focus where it belongs, on Jesus' death, which has set us free from the slavemaster of sin. We are justified freely by His grace and set apart, sanctified by the Holy Spirit to live a new life in Christ. Our works don't save us; they are a result of the Spirit living in us.

Awesome Sophia7! You nailed it!

Great article to BTW. I will read the whole thing when I get the time..

 

[reddogs]

And this is the crux of the debate: fallen-nature advocates primarily emphasize Jesus' example in order to argue that we can overcome sin in the flesh because Jesus did. The problem with this is that human flesh can't overcome sin, and Jesus wasn't exactly like us. He was both God and man. His temptations were not exactly like ours. How many of us would be tempted to turn stones into bread or to throw ourselves off the pinnacle of the temple? Jesus' temptations were about using His divine power, which we obviously don't have, to avoid the suffering from which His humanity shrank but which He had to endure in carrying out His mission of salvation.







Here is a portion of an article from the Adventist Biblical Research Institute site, presenting the unfallen-nature position (and click here if you want a defense of the fallen-nature position, from the same site):

If Jesus must be sinful flesh to understand our struggles from experience, then how could He empathize with the dregs of the race? How could He save the generation plunged two thousand years further down into genetic degeneration? If His taking our sinful nature was prerequisite to His being tempted like us, then He should have come contemporary with the last man born. Yet, even if Jesus were a last-generation person, His contemporaries would still be more degraded because of their own sinning. If sinful nature is a necessary element of being tempted like us, then Christ wasn’t tempted like our generation and those degraded through personal sin. But if His uniqueness made His temptation greater, then He didn’t need our fallen nature to be tempted like us.​

Not until His death did He, “who knew no sin,” become “sin for us” (2 Cor. 5:21). Never before that moment did sin bring a separation from His Father, which caused Him to cry out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mat. 27:46). The man Jesus became sin for us in mission at death and not in nature at birth.​

Doxology​

Theology is a human quest to understand God’s self-revelation. Christology is the center and heart of theology, for Jesus Christ is the greatest revelation of God to man. He is also the best revelation of authentic man to man. Jesus Christ was unique not only as God with us but as man with us. He was sinless divinity united with sin-weakened human flesh, but He was equally sinless in both natures. He was God with us, but He lived as man with us in a complete self-emptying (see Phil. 2:7). While remaining God, He laid aside the use of His divine attributes, living as authentic man totally dependent upon His Father in heaven.​

O wonder, ye inhabitants of the far-flung cosmos! Be amazed, ye angels in heaven! O worship Him, ye sinners on earth! For what other human, born of woman, can match this One in nature and deed? Who else gave up so much for so few? Who else became limited to one human body when He existed everywhere before? Who else chose to remain so limited forever? Who else plunged into sin’s inoperative, terminal cancer to bring radical healing and not become infected Himself? Who else could become a human physician while distancing himself from the human plague?​

How could Jesus be my example in all these? How could I copy Him? How could I be eternal, be God, be sinless in birth, sinless as a baby, and sinless throughout life? How could I overcome all He overcame? And when He finally overcame Satan by His death at Calvary—which has cosmic and salvific consequences—how could I follow? Yes, I long to be like Him, but I admit that He is forever unique. With Peter I confess, “ ‘Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!’ ” (Luke 5:8, N.I.V.). Yet He in mercy says, “Come unto me” (Matt. 11:28). He draws me by His uniqueness. I desperately need that which makes Him different from me.​

Christianity is not just to be like Him. Christianity is life in Him. We are righteous only in Christ, never in ourselves. The good news is more than “Copy me.” It is always first and foremost “Cling to me,” “Abide in me” (John 15:4), “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col. 1:27), and “You are accepted in the Beloved” (see Eph. 1:6). True Christology ends, not in debate, but in grateful worship and joyful obedience. By beholding Him we not only praise Him but become like​

Him (see 2 Cor. 3:18). To see His love for us, His unique love as a unique man, galvanizes us; we yearn more to be filled with Him than to be like Him. This focus is crucial. It is on Him and His works, and away from ourselves and our works. We do not just follow, we fellowship. It is not just rules, but relationship. Not just a practice, but a Person. For Christianity is Christ through and through. Out of this communion comes a marvelous wonder—we become like the One we admire the most! It is a natural by-product of longing to have Him dwell within. Christology climaxes in the exclamation “I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me” (Gal. 2:20). Only in this dependent union can Jesus be our model man—never in His nature at birth.​

​

Lest anyone should misunderstand, I do not believe that the gospel of grace gives us a license to sin. Rather, it changes our whole perspective about sin and salvation. It shifts our focus from ourselves to Christ. Grace cost our Savior His life. True grace has never been cheap.

RO 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.​

RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.​

RO 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.​

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.​

RO 5:1 5 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.​

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.​

RO 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.​

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.​

RO 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.​

RO 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.​

RO 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.​

​

This passage puts the focus where it belongs, on Jesus' death, which has set us free from the slavemaster of sin. We are justified freely by His grace and set apart, sanctified by the Holy Spirit to live a new life in Christ. Our works don't save us; they are a result of the Spirit living in us.

In order for his sacrifice to save man (flesh) Jesus had to be the same as us, fully man (flesh) with the indwelling of the divine. Until we ask Jesus himself to teach us a full understanding, this argument will not be settled as scriptures does not show us the complete answer as the diversity such as Arianism and the other views show us, nor does it need (as Adam still sinned so the argument for pre-fall or post-fall is mute) to be except for those who want to find a excuse to continue in sin ....


We must not fall into the trap that Satan sets as a snare to give believers a excuse, or a line of thought or false doctrine that allows us to remain in his lair under the dominion of sin and iniquity so Christ at His coming doesn't have to say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

 

[Jimlarmore]

I don't know of anyone who uses the sin afflicted nature of Christ to support self righteousness by saying we can be sinless as Christ was on our own. Like I said living in a body that is sin afflicted is not sin. Christ could not be an example for us or know what we go thru if He had devine powers to resist sin. Also, I think most of us know that without the power of Christ in our lives we could not withstand sin or temptation. So , to my knowledge all of us give the one responsible for the victory to the one with the power. i.e. Christ/Holy Spirit.

The mystery that presents itself to us concerning the nature of Christ leaves us with some unanswered questions. Surely He must have had some temptations that we would not be exposed to, like the example of turning the stones into bread or any number of things that would challenge His messiahship. However, we read in the Bible where Jesus Himself tells us that of Himself He could do nothing but it was the Father working in Him that was doing the good works. Did these works include His ability to resist sin? The Bible is not clear on this. He also said we would be able to do greater works than He was doing. So, I don't know exactly the complete nature of Christ concerning His divinity and the ability to resist temptation and sin. He was a one of a kind man on earth thats for sure. Without Him we would doomed indeed.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

I don't know of anyone who uses the sin afflicted nature of Christ to support self righteousness by saying we can be sinless as Christ was on our own. Like I said living in a body that is sin afflicted is not sin. Christ could not be an example for us or know what we go thru if He had devine powers to resist sin. Also, I think most of us know that without the power of Christ in our lives we could not withstand sin or temptation. So , to my knowledge all of us give the one responsible for the victory to the one with the power. i.e. Christ/Holy Spirit.

The mystery that presents itself to us concerning the nature of Christ leaves us with some unanswered questions. Surely He must have had some temptations that we would not be exposed to, like the example of turning the stones into bread or any number of things that would challenge His messiahship. However, we read in the Bible where Jesus Himself tells us that of Himself He could do nothing but it was the Father working in Him that was doing the good works. Did these works include His ability to resist sin? The Bible is not clear on this. He also said we would be able to do greater works than He was doing. So, I don't know exactly the complete nature of Christ concerning His divinity and the ability to resist temptation and sin. He was a one of a kind man on earth thats for sure. Without Him we would doomed indeed.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I agree, living with a sin afflicted nature is not a sin, as in the old testament some such as Elijah, Abraham, Noah had the weight of the carnal sin afflicted nature and believed and followed God and were seen as or given the gift of righteousness.

 

[Loveaboveall]

When a person learns to completely humble themselves before God as Jesus did, will they know they are sinless? I don't think so. As we draw closer to Christ we become more like Him, by beholding we become changed. The problem is that when we draw closer to Christ we begin to see how sinful we are in comparison to Him. If we reached the point of full sanctification you would not know it because you would see yourself as just an awful sinner in comparsion to Christ. Read what Paul says in Romans 7 with this thought in mind. David intimates this same line of thinking in Psalms 40. So to ask someone if they no longer sin is ridiculous. Even if they have completely turned over their life to the Holy Spirit so the "righteousness of the Law" is fulfilled in them they would not know it!

 

[OntheDL]

And this is the crux of the debate: fallen-nature advocates primarily emphasize Jesus' example in order to argue that we can overcome sin in the flesh because Jesus did. The problem with this is that human flesh can't overcome sin, and Jesus wasn't exactly like us. He was both God and man. His temptations were not exactly like ours. How many of us would be tempted to turn stones into bread or to throw ourselves off the pinnacle of the temple? Jesus' temptations were about using His divine power, which we obviously don't have, to avoid the suffering from which His humanity shrank but which He had to endure in carrying out His mission of salvation.

Of course human flesh can not overcome sin. That's why the sinful needed to be born again. A born-again man is a new creation who walks in the newness of life.

That's the essence of the gospel that Christ is fully man and fully God. Yet He did not rely on His own power, but the Father's to overcome sin. Thus leaving us an example: who committed no sin.

Lest we forget what the bible says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

We can not overcome sin ourselves. But if God can not strengthen us to overcome sin, then we are in trouble.

 

[DanPev]

I'm just going to state what I believe in the most clear way that I can what I believe. And if you disagree with what I say, thats fine, you disagree.

1. The book "Savior of the World" by Jack Sequeira is the best book on the nature of Christ that I have ever read. I believe it is biblical and truth.

2. I recommend it to everyone who is searching for the truth. I would not recommend it to those who just want to debate and bash.

Okay, my beliefs.

1. A sinful (sin afflicted) nature is not sin.

2. Sin is more than just actions, it is a power that holds us in its grip.

3. We will not be able to overcome sin until we realize the extent of that power and that the only one who can break that power is Jesus Christ.

4. Jesus was born of the Spirit. Therefor He inherited the nature of God. He was also born of Mary. Therefore He inherited her nature. Her nature was sin afflicted. Therefore He took upon himself a sinful (sin afflicted) nature.

5. I base my beliefs in the Bible first and foremost, in EGW second, and third on the opinions of people I respect.

 

[Loveaboveall]

And this is the crux of the debate: fallen-nature advocates primarily emphasize Jesus' example in order to argue that we can overcome sin in the flesh because Jesus did. The problem with this is that human flesh can't overcome sin, and Jesus wasn't exactly like us. He was both God and man. His temptations were not exactly like ours. How many of us would be tempted to turn stones into bread or to throw ourselves off the pinnacle of the temple? Jesus' temptations were about using His divine power, which we obviously don't have, to avoid the suffering from which His humanity shrank but which He had to endure in carrying out His mission of salvation.

You should dig out your copy of "The Desire of Ages" Mrs. White has a great chapter on the temptations in the wilderness. She illustrates very well how the 3 temptations in the wilderness were very much the same as in the garden of eden. A great read...

 

[NightEternal]

Bumping, as this issue is presently being discussed.

 

[djconklin]

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

So, there will be a time when those who are judged righteous are doing it without God's help. They have rejected sin within and have overcome:

1 John 2:13-14 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

 

[reddogs]

I'm just going to state what I believe in the most clear way that I can what I believe. And if you disagree with what I say, thats fine, you disagree.

1. The book "Savior of the World" by Jack Sequeira is the best book on the nature of Christ that I have ever read. I believe it is biblical and truth.

2. I recommend it to everyone who is searching for the truth. I would not recommend it to those who just want to debate and bash.

Okay, my beliefs.

1. A sinful (sin afflicted) nature is not sin.

2. Sin is more than just actions, it is a power that holds us in its grip.

3. We will not be able to overcome sin until we realize the extent of that power and that the only one who can break that power is Jesus Christ.

4. Jesus was born of the Spirit. Therefor He inherited the nature of God. He was also born of Mary. Therefore He inherited her nature. Her nature was sin afflicted. Therefore He took upon himself a sinful (sin afflicted) nature.

5. I base my beliefs in the Bible first and foremost, in EGW second, and third on the opinions of people I respect.

Welcome Dan, we are getting a lot of young people with some keen minds and excellent post....I am very impressed...

Red

 

[OntheDL]

So, there will be a time when those who are judged righteous are doing it without God's help. They have rejected sin within and have overcome:

Yes, after they have been sealed and the probation closes. After that, the personal characters can not be changed.