Can sinning can be overcome?

[reddogs]

Can sinning can be overcome in this life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.


Dr. Desmond Ford basic premise as I remember the debate was that he does not believe that all sinning can be overcome in this life either with or without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only certain sins can be overcome, thus the 'other' sins by extension are allowable.

But people take this to mean that these 'sins' are not really "hard sins" or "iniquity", but just part of being in a sinful world. Is that correct according to scripture?

Here are some texts on how we choose to heed the desires of our flesh, and for whatever reason, set aside the conviction of the Holy Spirit. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" Mark 14:38.

James 1:14-15 - But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Galatians 5:17 - For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

The potential trap here is for our flesh to use this 'to err is human' sentiment as another justification for sin. The ideal response is to not sin. The more realistic response is to realize that there is an area of weakness in our life that needs God's grace to overcome. The worst response is to let the one who tempted us, further condemn us so that we put distance between ourselves and God.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Galatians 6:8 - For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

The best response after we sin is to go directly to God, to not waste any time (God's or yours) in self-condemnation, and to receive the mercy and grace from God.

Hebrews 4:16 - Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Jimlarmore]

The Bible says there are sins that are not unto death. However, where I have a problem with Dr. Ford and others is they are not speaking of these types of sin. They include the sins we are faced with daily that we can overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This new righteousness by faith idea that is primarily once saved always saved really embraces this. Freeindeed2 says we cannot over come sin at all and behavior is inconsequential for salvation.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

If you are going to start a thread dealing with Dr. Ford why don't you take the time to actually place some quotes from the man rather then begin with what may or may not even be an accurate statement.

It seems a common courtesy to accurately represent someone views when you talk about them.

 

[Jimlarmore]

If you are going to start a thread dealing with Dr. Ford why don't you take the time to actually place some quotes from the man rather then begin with what may or may not even be an accurate statement.

It seems a common courtesy to accurately represent someone views when you talk about them.

Fair enough, I was just going by what I had read in the past and remembered. I didn't want to go and find it to cut and paste here. You are right though I should have, I apologize for being inconsiderate.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[reddogs]

If you are going to start a thread dealing with Dr. Ford why don't you take the time to actually place some quotes from the man rather then begin with what may or may not even be an accurate statement.

It seems a common courtesy to accurately represent someone views when you talk about them.

Here is a good independent view of Dr. Ford on this:

http://www.sdadefend.com/sdadefend-old/Books-new-order/Paxton.htm

"Basic to Ford’s understanding of the subject of character perfection is his idea that Scripture distinguishes two kinds of sins. One kind is designated by one or more of the following adjectives; “willful,” ‘deliberate,” “cherished” or presumptuous.” The second class of sins, sometimes referred to as hasty-impulsive sinning, is something else again. As an example, angry words, or sudden outbursts of temper, would probably fall into this category. It will be his aim or goal to eliminate them insofar as is “humanly possible” [to whatever degree he can do it by himself]. But he never reaches that goal in this life, according to the “new theology” (i.e., new to Seventh-day Adventists). Consequently, according to Ford, he will need incessant pardon for these sins right up to the moment of glorification...."

 

[freeindeed2]

The Bible says there are sins that are not unto death. However, where I have a problem with Dr. Ford and others is they are not speaking of these types of sin. They include the sins we are faced with daily that we can overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This new righteousness by faith idea that is primarily once saved always saved really embraces this. Freeindeed2 says we cannot over come sin at all and behavior is inconsequential for salvation.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Have any of you overcome all the sins we are faced with daily?
How can we verify that you do not sin anymore in order to believe the claim?
If you are still failing, does this mean you do not have the Holy Spirit?

Freeindeed2 says we cannot over come sin at all and behavior is inconsequential for salvation.

Please provide a quote where I have said this.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I will help you out Jim here is a quote from Desmond Ford to Kevin Paulson found on Atoday website dialog on 1844 the Ij and the Gospel :

Kevin's main point, however , is that " sinless obedience is possible for the sanctified Christian." Does he really know what he is saying? Is he contending that every thought, word, and deed of the true believer has the same perfect quality of that of our first parents before the Fall? Does he recognize that there is sin in the choice of a lesser good in any area of behavior? Does he know that anything short of perfect love to all we meet is sin? Is his own personal stewardship of health and wealth such that he is a paragon to all who behold? Does he never have a moment of worry or fear-- both of which are sins? How realistic Scripture is. Read James 3:2; Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:17; Acts 10:14;15:39; Eph. 4:25-32 ( which assumes that those to whom Paul wrote, habitually fell short in all the areas he mentions). If , as James says, " in many things we all offend" ( 3:2) how can anyone who believes the Bible contend for absolute perfection of behavior?
The Holy Flesh movement taught that the type of perfection in life that Kevin is advocating was indeed possible. Ellen White rejected such ideas, and the whole point of her statement in this passage is that, until we have glorified bodies, sinless perfectionism is impossible. In one of her most well known statements she reminded us that the nearer we come to Christ the more sinful we will appear to ourselves. See Steps to Christ, p. 65. And in The Sanctified Life EGW writes concerning true believers: " ...the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects." p.
Second Response to Paulson, Desmond Ford

 

[reddogs]

I will help you out Jim here is a quote from Desmond Ford to Kevin Paulson found on Atoday website dialog on 1844 the Ij and the Gospel :

Enoch was able to overcome sin as sin cannot exist with God, so on this point we already have a witness.

1. Genesis 5:21
   And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
   Genesis 5:20-22 (in Context) Genesis 5 (Whole Chapter)
2. Genesis 5:22
   And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
   Genesis 5:21-23 (in Context) Genesis 5 (Whole Chapter)
3. Genesis 5:23
   And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
   Genesis 5:22-24 (in Context) Genesis 5 (Whole Chapter)
4. Genesis 5:24
   And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
   Genesis 5:23-25 (in Context) Genesis 5 (Whole Chapter)

So the problem with giving people 'sin which is allowable' is that they then take it and propmptly apply it to any or all sin which is what many are doing now. So this application of what is sin can then go against the truth in God's word as they decide what is sin, they decide if they are rightheous, they decide if they are to be judged instead of God.

This is the reason they fight against God looking over and/or judging their sin(s) as it affects their eternal life, they want control over that too so they 'declare' themselves 'saved' or 'sinless' not leave it to the divine or His word.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Enoch was able to overcome sin as sin cannot exist with God, so on this point we already have a witness.

I don't know what all you are reading into those very few texts about Enoch but clearly you are drawing from them far more then the texts supply. It is a common means people use in Genesis but that still does not make those insertions any more true.

Apparently walked with God somehow translates into perfection in some way but that is certainly drawing a lot more from the text then the text supplies.

 

[reddogs]

I don't know what all you are reading into those very few texts about Enoch but clearly you are drawing from them far more then the texts supply. It is a common means people use in Genesis but that still does not make those insertions any more true.

Apparently walked with God somehow translates into perfection in some way but that is certainly drawing a lot more from the text then the text supplies.

I quess you missed this part in scripture:

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Have any of you overcome all the sins we are faced with daily?
How can we verify that you do not sin anymore in order to believe the claim?
If you are still failing, does this mean you do not have the Holy Spirit?

I have some questions for you Freeindeed2. After re-studying some things on Dr. Desmond Ford.

1. Do you accept or reject the day for a year principle in the Bible for prophetic purposes?

2. Do you accept or reject the concept of what the mark of the beast represents in adventism?

3. Are you or are you not a preterist?

Just three for now, I've got a hunch about something and I want to hear it directly from you. I promise I will not come back with any negative response at all for now.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[OntheDL]

Can sinning can be overcome in this life—with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Dr. Desmond Ford basic premise as I remember the debate was that he does not believe that all sinning can be overcome in this life—either with or without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Only certain sins can be overcome, thus the 'other' sins by extension are allowable.

It denies the cleansing power of God if not even God can help us to overcome ALL sins.

1 John 1
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able to resist. If we fall to the temptation, it is because we do not want to resist.

It's ironic the evangelicals love to say 'I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me'. But they conveniently forget it when it comes to overcoming sins.

If the Devil tempts you to sin, but God does not want you to sin, then is the Devil not more powerful than God if you can not stop sinning???

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I quess you missed this part in scripture:

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

doesn't change anything it still nowhere says Enoch was perfect, that is something you have inserted.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Quote:
Originally Posted by freeindeed2
Have any of you overcome all the sins we are faced with daily?
How can we verify that you do not sin anymore in order to believe the claim?
If you are still failing, does this mean you do not have the Holy Spirit?

I have some questions for you Freeindeed2. After re-studying some things on Dr. Desmond Ford.

Classic avoidance behavior. Why should Free answer your questions Jim when you won't answer his questions which are logical under the thread subject matter.

The perfectionist are so sure of their future yet with what they know and even that certainty they also know that they are no where near being sinless. so what is the point, I believe that some day I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye but for now I live in the here and now.

 

[freeindeed2]

I have some questions for you Freeindeed2. After re-studying some things on Dr. Desmond Ford.

1. Do you accept or reject the day for a year principle in the Bible for prophetic purposes?

2. Do you accept or reject the concept of what the mark of the beast represents in adventism?

3. Are you or are you not a preterist?

Just three for now, I've got a hunch about something and I want to hear it directly from you. I promise I will not come back with any negative response at all for now.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Are these your answers for my questions about those who claim they have overcome sin? They are off-topic to this thread.

Freeindeed2 says we cannot over come sin at all and behavior is inconsequential for salvation.

Have you overcome sin?

Does your behavior save you?

 

[freeindeed2]

Classic avoidance behavior. Why should Free answer your questions Jim when you won't answer his questions which are logical under the thread subject matter.

The perfectionist are so sure of their future yet with what they know and even that certainty they also know that they are no where near being sinless. so what is the point, I believe that some day I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye but for now I live in the here and now.

Thanks for that. I agree that we will be changed and receive our glorified bodies in the twinkling of an eye. I don't know anyone who doesn't live now in the fallen flesh they were born with. We are completely dependent on Jesus and his Spirit that lives in us to save us.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Are these your answers for my questions about those who claim they have overcome sin? They are off-topic to this thread.


Have you overcome sin?

Does your behavior save you?

Thru the blood of Jesus Christ yes I have. You claim the blood of Jesus Christ to save you but you deny His power to keep from sinning? This does not mean I won't sin ever again, but I will avoid it like the plague. My behavior can't save me but it can kill me because my behavior is how sin is defined and if I don't worry about it then I am not worrying about pleasing my God and Savior. I don't avoid sin to be saved I avoid sin because I am saved and love the life giver.

Now, will you answer my questions or are you afraid to?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

Thru the blood of Jesus Christ yes I have. You claim the blood of Jesus Christ to save you but you deny His power to keep from sinning? This does not mean I won't sin ever again, but I will avoid it like the plague. My behavior can't save me but it can kill me because my behavior is how sin is defined and if I don't worry about it then I am not worrying about pleasing my God and Savior. I don't avoid sin to be saved I avoid sin because I am saved and love the life giver.

How successful have you been at simply 'avoiding' sin? How many times a day/week/year do you not 'avoid' it? Does 'avoiding' it cleanse you from your 'slips'. How can you claim to have overcome sin if you still have 'slips', even occasionally?

Now, will you answer my questions or are you afraid to?

Still off topic for this thread. And you know I cannot give a response without getting warned yet again.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Actually Jim, you never really answered the questions, here they are again:

Originally Posted by freeindeed2
Have any of you overcome all the sins we are faced with daily?
How can we verify that you do not sin anymore in order to believe the claim?
If you are still failing, does this mean you do not have the Holy Spirit?

 

[woobadooba]

"No temptation has taken you but what is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but with the temptation also will make a way to escape, so that you may be able to bear it."(1Co 10:13)

It's not an issue of not being able to overcome all sin; rather, it's an issue of trusting God to deliver us from all temptation.

To suggest that there is even just one sin that we can't overcome in Christ, is to deny what Paul had said above, and thus limit the power of God.

By limiting the power of God we are in essence declaring Him to be less than the 'sin' that we have allowed to take His place in our lives. This is called 'idolatry'.