Can sinning can be overcome?

[NightEternal]

Yes, after they have been sealed and the probation closes. After that, the personal characters can not be changed.

What dead-end, bankrupt, theological drivel. Is it any wonder we have so many leaving the church in complete and utter discouragement and hopelessness with this nonsense infecting the church?

"He that is unjust be unjust still..."

Who justifies? CHRIST!

"He who is filthy let him be filthy still..."

Who cleanses? CHRIST!

"He that is righteous let him be righteous still..."

Which righteousness will ever qualify us for Heaven? CHRIST'S imputed righteousness!

"He that is holy, let him be holy still..."

Who is the Holy One? CHRIST!

Anyone who claims they will be sinless or holy before glorification is a liar, period. There is no one righteous, no, not even one. Only Christ's holy, righteous merits and his cleansing, justifying grace on our behalf will ever be something we can boast about.

We do not achieve this state by 'perfecting' our characters with 'the Lord's help' or 'through the Lord's power.' Only at glorification when Christ changes us do these words in the above passage come to fruitition. His overcoming of sin at the cross is ours by faith. His victory at the cross is ours by faith. His imputed righteousness is ours by faith. We do not one single thing to add to this process.

As long as you guys try to make it all about us, I am going to counter by making it all about Christ!

Having a fallen, sin-afflicted nature does not render us sinful? Now I have heard everything.

There are no limits to what can be said in order to drag Christ's sinless nature down to our level it seems.

 

[RileyLovesJesus]

what is drivel?

I used to sin by telling my mom that I didn't have any homework.

She would believe me & then the school would call her, which I didn't know.

She waited until my report card came, and then told me she knew all along that i had been lying about it, & wanted to see if i would confess.

I figured if my mom knew things i didn't know she knew, and if God knew everything, i was better off just to tell the truth from the start. It just means i have homework now, that's all.

 

[Telaquapacky]

A pastor friend of mine tells how he walked into Sabbath School in one of the more loopy churches he pastored, and a member was standing behind the podium, tearfully testifying that he had gained victory over margarine.

 

[djconklin]

What dead-end, bankrupt, theological drivel. Is it any wonder we have so many leaving the church in complete and utter discouragement and hopelessness with this nonsense infecting the church?

"He that is unjust be unjust still..."

Who justifies? CHRIST!

"He who is filthy let him be filthy still..."

Who cleanses? CHRIST!

"He that is righteous let him be righteous still..."

Which righteousness will ever qualify us for Heaven? CHRIST'S imputed righteousness!

"He that is holy, let him be holy still..."

Who is the Holy One? CHRIST!

I don't ever want to hear anyone criticizing the message of the Bible as bankrupt drivel!

No one is arguing as to who does the cleansing and makes righteous. So why even bring it up?

You quoted the text and managed to miss the word "still"? God even inspired John to repeat it over and over for you. There's an hour of silence in heaven after that text--that means no intercession. The results stay till the end because people have made up their minds--either obey and live or disobey and die.

Only quiters quit. Those with faith hang on.

 

[NightEternal]

I don't ever want to hear anyone criticizing the message of the Bible as bankrupt drivel!

I am doing no such thing and you know it. I am attacking the interpretation he is giving to the text and the slant he has on character perfection.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I don't ever want to hear anyone criticizing the message of the Bible as bankrupt drivel!

I am doing no such thing and you know it. I am attacking the interpretation he is giving to the text

His interpretation was based on Scripture--you can't impugn one without castigating the other. If you wish to say "Brother I believe that you may have erred here ..." then go ahead. BUT, NO MORE NAME-CALLING!

 

[NightEternal]

I have not called anyone names. I called his theology bankrupt and dead-end, not him. Get things straight before you cast about accusations.

If you want to believe his take on character perfection and his interpretation of Scripture is 100% correct, that's fine. I believe no such thing.

And I'll thank for not shouting at me. I don't answer to condescending chastisement.

 

[Cliff2]

A pastor friend of mine tells how he walked into Sabbath School in one of the more loopy churches he pastored, and a member was standing behind the podium, tearfully testifying that he had gained victory over margarine.

Don't laugh at this guy who gained the victory over margarine. It may have been hard for him to give it up.

Not only that, but take the colour out of it and it is black. Then consider that it is nearly plastic. It is as close to causing cancer as any food is.

I take my hat off to the poor guy and hope he never goes back onto it.

 

[djconklin]

I have not called anyone names. I called his theology bankrupt and dead-end, not him. Get things straight before you cast about accusations.

Hmmm, for someone who claims to "know" what others mean, but they didn't say it, when they make a post you sure turned it off quickly enough, or when it is convenient. I obviously meant LABELING!

And I'll thank for not shouting at me. I don't answer to condescending chastisement.

Well, you didn't show enough common sense to not label someone else's beliefs. So far reason, facts, and logic haven't worked too well on other topics either.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by Telaquapacky
A pastor friend of mine tells how he walked into Sabbath School in one of the more loopy churches he pastored, and a member was standing behind the podium, tearfully testifying that he had gained victory over margarine.

I juts "love" hearing these stories. No dates, no names, no place given--no way at all to verify that any of it happened. Like the guy who was condemning the SDA church, claimed he was a former member (turned out it was from one pof the off-shoot wannabe's), gave his personal testimony in which he claimed Ellen G. White copied "whole paragraphs word for word." Three times I asked him to send me example. His only response was "Would it affect you belief in Ellen White?" I told him "How would I know? I haven't seen any evidence yet." That was the last I heard from him. Then sometime later I was on a Catholic forum in which a guy was repeating the plagiarism claim--so I sic'd him onto this supposed former SDA. He claim noting that the guy never came up with even a single paragraph which to him meant there wasn't any such evidence. Shortly thereafter, the web page of his "personal testimony" so pure, so true, just have to warn everyone about these evil SDA's disappeared!

 

[NightEternal]

Hmmm, for someone who claims to "know" what others mean, but they didn't say it, when they make a post you sure turned it off quickly enough, or when it is convenient. I obviously meant LABELING!

I don't even know what you are trying to say here.

Well, you didn't show enough common sense to not label someone else's beliefs. So far reason, facts, and logic haven't worked too well on other topics either.

Whatever Conklin. Your arrogance is pretty much evident for everyone to see. What you think about my logic could hardly mean any less to me.

 

[djconklin]

Hmmm, for someone who claims to "know" what others mean, but they didn't say it, when they make a post you sure turned it off quickly enough, or when it is convenient. I obviously meant LABELING!

I don't even know what you are trying to say here.

Well, if you are that obtuse or have already forgotten the thread of the conversation then it wouldn't do any good to explain it.

Well, you didn't show enough common sense to not label someone else's beliefs. So far reason, facts, and logic haven't worked too well on other topics either.

Whatever Conklin. Your arrogance is pretty much evident for everyone to see. What you think about my logic could hardly mean any less to me.

If my friends were reading your remark they would be ROFL. I am nowhere near arrogant; if anything I have the opposite problem. Now if you wish to try junk-yard dog with a bone--that my friends would agree with wholeheartedly. As for your logic, it is missing some of the major premises wihich you fill in with your bias.

 

[NightEternal]

Arrogant.

 

[djconklin]

Bearing false witness against your neighbor is a sin.

 

[Telaquapacky]

[/size][/i][/i]


I juts "love" hearing these stories. No dates, no names, no place given--no way at all to verify that any of it happened. Like the guy who was condemning the SDA church, claimed he was a former member (turned out it was from one pof the off-shoot wannabe's), gave his personal testimony in which he claimed Ellen G. White copied "whole paragraphs word for word." Three times I asked him to send me example. His only response was "Would it affect you belief in Ellen White?" I told him "How would I know? I haven't seen any evidence yet." That was the last I heard from him. Then sometime later I was on a Catholic forum in which a guy was repeating the plagiarism claim--so I sic'd him onto this supposed former SDA. He claim noting that the guy never came up with even a single paragraph which to him meant there wasn't any such evidence. Shortly thereafter, the web page of his "personal testimony" so pure, so true, just have to warn everyone about these evil SDA's disappeared!

Hi, DJ!
Glad you foiled the faker. In my case, what I was sharing was an anecdote. Anecdotes may be true accounts of incidents, but they are not formal enough, nor offered as proof of anything, so references are not customarily asked or given.

The point of my anecdote about the fellow who was so emotional about overcoming margarine was an illustration of how some perfectionists "major in minors," that is, they place undue importance on trivial things. This is not a very good witness to other believers. What if a woman who had just escaped a life of living on the street, forced prostitution, drugs - REAL sin issues, walked into the church and heard a pathetic excuse for a testimony like that? Would she feel as if the people there would have any sympathy for the issues she was dealing with? Probably not. Would she feel like she would find understanding and support there? Probably not. She would think, "If they're so hung up on something like margarine, when they get a load of me and my problems, they'll probably throw me out of their perfect church on my ear."

Maybe God does care that the man gained that victory- but if he's a human being, he's got a lot hotter irons in the fire than "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter." People sometimes plead guilty to a lesser crime because the real issues are too sensitive for them to touch, so they express guilt over inconsequential things as a smoke screen for the really gritty issues.

Jesus plainly said that it's not what goes into you that makes you unclean, but what comes out of you. Mark 7:18-20. I believe that God has a different view of perfection than we do. We have our own criteria of what perfection is. But how do we know what God's criteria is? We have the commandments, to be sure. We have the statutes, for those who still believe they are binding. I don't recall reading anything about margarine anywhere in there. But I do believe God condemns pride, selfishness, evil surmising, bitterness, self-righteousness- things that don't show up on anyone's Geiger counter but God's.

Hey, I am as proud of the SDA health message as anyone here. But put it in it's proper place. It's for evangelism and for better living. Anyone who makes eating right a salvation issue is straining out a gnat, and may be swallowing a camel.

 

[reddogs]

Hi, DJ!
Glad you foiled the faker. In my case, what I was sharing was an anecdote. Anecdotes may be true accounts of incidents, but they are not formal enough, nor offered as proof of anything, so references are not customarily asked or given.

The point of my anecdote about the fellow who was so emotional about overcoming margarine was an illustration of how some perfectionists "major in minors," that is, they place undue importance on trivial things. This is not a very good witness to other believers. What if a woman who had just escaped a life of living on the street, forced prostitution, drugs - REAL sin issues, walked into the church and heard a pathetic excuse for a testimony like that? Would she feel as if the people there would have any sympathy for the issues she was dealing with? Probably not. Would she feel like she would find understanding and support there? Probably not. She would think, "If they're so hung up on something like margarine, when they get a load of me and my problems, they'll probably throw me out of their perfect church on my ear."

Maybe God does care that the man gained that victory- but if he's a human being, he's got a lot hotter irons in the fire than "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter." People sometimes plead guilty to a lesser crime because the real issues are too sensitive for them to touch, so they express guilt over inconsequential things as a smoke screen for the really gritty issues.

Jesus plainly said that it's not what goes into you that makes you unclean, but what comes out of you. Mark 7:18-20. I believe that God has a different view of perfection than we do. We have our own criteria of what perfection is. But how do we know what God's criteria is? We have the commandments, to be sure. We have the statutes, for those who still believe they are binding. I don't recall reading anything about margarine anywhere in there. But I do believe God condemns pride, selfishness, evil surmising, bitterness, self-righteousness- things that don't show up on anyone's Geiger counter but God's.

Hey, I am as proud of the SDA health message as anyone here. But put it in it's proper place. It's for evangelism and for better living. Anyone who makes eating right a salvation issue is straining out a gnat, and may be swallowing a camel.

The Health message through Ellen White is being proven true day after day as new studies on diet show she was on the right track, even for the knowlege and science of her time....

 

[OntheDL]

What dead-end, bankrupt, theological drivel. Is it any wonder we have so many leaving the church in complete and utter discouragement and hopelessness with this nonsense infecting the church?

"He that is unjust be unjust still..."

Who justifies? CHRIST!

"He who is filthy let him be filthy still..."

Who cleanses? CHRIST!

"He that is righteous let him be righteous still..."

Which righteousness will ever qualify us for Heaven? CHRIST'S imputed righteousness!

"He that is holy, let him be holy still..."

Who is the Holy One? CHRIST!

Anyone who claims they will be sinless or holy before glorification is a liar, period. There is no one righteous, no, not even one. Only Christ's holy, righteous merits and his cleansing, justifying grace on our behalf will ever be something we can boast about.

We do not achieve this state by 'perfecting' our characters with 'the Lord's help' or 'through the Lord's power.' Only at glorification when Christ changes us do these words in the above passage come to fruitition. His overcoming of sin at the cross is ours by faith. His victory at the cross is ours by faith. His imputed righteousness is ours by faith. We do not one single thing to add to this process.

As long as you guys try to make it all about us, I am going to counter by making it all about Christ!

Having a fallen, sin-afflicted nature does not render us sinful? Now I have heard everything.

There are no limits to what can be said in order to drag Christ's sinless nature down to our level it seems.

Don't presume the position of authority and righteousness. If you have arguments to support your belief, then make them.

Holiness and perfect obedience are the only things God requires from us. Let me know if you need to see the scriptures on that.

I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me.

If you believe you can not overcome sin even with the help of Christ, then you will not obtain such state. That's fine. No one is forcing that on you.

 

[OntheDL]

Hi, DJ!
Glad you foiled the faker. In my case, what I was sharing was an anecdote. Anecdotes may be true accounts of incidents, but they are not formal enough, nor offered as proof of anything, so references are not customarily asked or given.

The point of my anecdote about the fellow who was so emotional about overcoming margarine was an illustration of how some perfectionists "major in minors," that is, they place undue importance on trivial things. This is not a very good witness to other believers. What if a woman who had just escaped a life of living on the street, forced prostitution, drugs - REAL sin issues, walked into the church and heard a pathetic excuse for a testimony like that? Would she feel as if the people there would have any sympathy for the issues she was dealing with? Probably not. Would she feel like she would find understanding and support there? Probably not. She would think, "If they're so hung up on something like margarine, when they get a load of me and my problems, they'll probably throw me out of their perfect church on my ear."

Maybe God does care that the man gained that victory- but if he's a human being, he's got a lot hotter irons in the fire than "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter." People sometimes plead guilty to a lesser crime because the real issues are too sensitive for them to touch, so they express guilt over inconsequential things as a smoke screen for the really gritty issues.

Jesus plainly said that it's not what goes into you that makes you unclean, but what comes out of you. Mark 7:18-20. I believe that God has a different view of perfection than we do. We have our own criteria of what perfection is. But how do we know what God's criteria is? We have the commandments, to be sure. We have the statutes, for those who still believe they are binding. I don't recall reading anything about margarine anywhere in there. But I do believe God condemns pride, selfishness, evil surmising, bitterness, self-righteousness- things that don't show up on anyone's Geiger counter but God's.

Hey, I am as proud of the SDA health message as anyone here. But put it in it's proper place. It's for evangelism and for better living. Anyone who makes eating right a salvation issue is straining out a gnat, and may be swallowing a camel.

Hi Garrick,

I heard this illustration of perfection that I had shared here...

When we look at the growth of a tree, maybe it had just newly budded off the ground, or maybe it's a young aspiring tree. They are perfect even if they do not bare any fruits. Because they are doing what they are supposed to do. A tree is always growing. But when it stops growing, it starts dying.

That's christian perfection. Perfect obedience and perfect dependence on God.

The bible says "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9.

That's the refining process, impuirty removed, gold tried by fire. For anyone that still sins, it only means the tranformation process is not completed yet, the person has not acquired Christ's characters.

We will never know we are perfect: we have arrived. Because our eyes should be fixed on Christ.

Through falling each time, we learn what not to do next time.

If you always fall into the same ditch in front of your house, then there is really nothing wrong with the ditch.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[NightEternal]

If you believe you can not overcome sin even with the help of Christ, then you will not obtain such state. That's fine. No one is forcing that on you.

Trash theology. Not worth wasting my time refuting yet again. I will let it stand on its own merits and allow others be the judge of wether they see sinless perfection as Good News or not.

You don't tell me what the condition of my salvation are sir. My salvation was already signed in blood, sealed with the Holy Spirit and delivered at Calvary.

As for me and my house-we will rest in the perfection of our Lord and Savior who has already lived a perfect life on our behalf.

 

[OntheDL]

Trash theology. Not worth wasting my time refuting yet again. I will let it stand on its own merits and allow others be the judge of wether they see sinless perfection as Good News or not.

You don't tell me what the conditions of my salvation are sir. My salvation was already signed in blood, sealed with the Holy Spirit and delivered at Calvary.

As for me and my house-we will rest in the perfection of our Lord and Savior who has already lived a perfect life on our behalf.

If your salvation had been sealed, you would have kind and loving words for people whom you disagree with.

Your posts speak volumns of your spiritual condition.