CAN sickness glorify God?

[TreeOfLife]

You accused me of saying this [/i]

Unless you can point me to the exact post where I said exactly that then the statement made by you is a LIE. Instead of sound reasoning you are resorting to personal and unfounded attacks. I have not said such thing about you or anyone else. I have tried to explain my view the best I know how and not once have I come even close to the unfounded accusations you have made toward me.

I in no way what-so-ever lied about even one thing! I am astonished that you (an authority on this forum) would resort to such things.

I DID NOT LIE!!!!!!!

Referring to my post as a "lie" is exactly the same as calling me a liar. I would report you but what good would it do?

 

[justinstout]

Look in the book of Job.Our hardships can strengthen ones faith.They are not just terrible nightmares.Remember God ALLOWED Jobs tribulations to test him.This life is short.Anything that happenes in this life is temporary.We are looking tward a heavenly reward.Remember,because of Jobs faith he was restored in this life.God was glorified by Jobs testing,because he came through with flying colors.It's a very good example to follow.

Would everyone please get over this junk about Job?

Does everyone know that the book of Job lasted about 9 months??

Why do people develop doctrine from the book of Job and use Job's problems (that were caused by Satan) to justify their life-long "conditions"?? It's not right!

God was not the one testing Job! Do you think God is so dumb that He needs to "test" us? Why does a school teacher "test" a child? To find out what they are made of and what they know, right? Well, I think God can do that without half destroying our lives! Does a school teacher give her students the flu or beat them over the head with a brick to "test" them? Does a school teacher unleash the school bully to rip a child apart to "test" them? No, she tests the students with her words. How much more loving is our heavenly Father than a school teacher?

God's Word is the ultimate test. If a believer isn't obeying God's Word, the results will be evident in his life. God knows your heart. He does not need to "put you through the ringer" to find out what level your faith is on. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, I don't think He needs to tempt us so that He can see how long we'll stand. That's totally unscriptural.

Can we stick to the New Testament scriptures on this, please? You can't find one New Testament example where God strikes a believer with cancer or murders someone's children to "test" them.

I'll never in my life figure out why people want to continue believing such a wicked concept of my heavenly Father. It never ceases to amaze me the things that people come up with to hold God responsible for.

 

[LeeS]

I in no way what-so-ever lied about even one thing! I am astonished that you (an authority on this forum) would resort to such things.

I DID NOT LIE!!!!!!!

Referring to my post as a "lie" is exactly the same as calling me a liar. I would report you but what good would it do?

You are skirting around the issue.

You accused me of saying this:

But He did not say, "your self generated, mind over matter, astonishing willpower to have faith made you whole", now did He?

Nope.

When I denied saying that you added this:

That was most certainly the clear implication in your response to my post.

Unless you can point me to the exact post where I said exactly what "was most certaintly the clear implication in YOUR response to my post", then the statement made is a LIE. Instead of sound reasoning you are resorting to personal and unfounded attacks. I have not said such thing about you or anyone else. I have tried to explain my view the best I know how and not once have I come even close to the unfounded accusations you have made toward me.

 

[toffeegirl]

hi i'm relatively new to this board and haven't really posted before. but i'd like to share what i think.

firstly any christian writer is fallible, so errors appear in their books, but this doesnot mean the whole book is junk. but we must use scripture and holy spirit guidence to discern any spiritual principles in the book.

secondly i reckon that healing of sickness and pain is a sign of God's Kingdom in our midst. this is why Jesus had a healing ministry to demonstrate this. although he didn't heal everyone. so should we consequently expect healing for everyone? and if we dont expect healing for everyone, should this effect how we pray about healing.

thirdly from personal experience, healing is not always a simple act of praying, miracle happens, and all is well.
i have had/still have severe and enduring mental health problems as professionals like to say. i'm diagnosed as having severe depression with pychosis, and bi-polar. my reason for sharing this, is because my healing from this has never been sudden in answer to prayer, but i am weller now than i was years ago, so God has been healing me but it has been over a peroid of time. and in this time the healing has obviuosly glorified God, but so has the continuation of my illness in variuos different ways.

however i would not stop hoping and praying for healing as i believe it is God's plan for me, and he will be glorified through that. but it is in his timing that he heals me totally, and how he does it is up to him.
however whilst i am ill, i pray for God to use me and my illness to bring Glory to him.

does all that make sense.

i think that the gist of it for me is have hope in God's healing power, but also submit to God's purposes and way of doing things. (which isn't always understandable to us)

so i reckon PDL, is too simplistic in making this statement.

what does anyone think of what i've said



i posted this on the PDL thread but thought it also worth posting it here

 

[LeeS]

Yes toffeegirl, it makes sense Thank you for sharing.

 

[Harlan Norris]

Regradless of our discussion, I pray for you and that ultimately you continue to find solace and peace with Him.
Dids
P.S. Do not take that final drink dude!

Thank you, God willing, I won't take that drink.

 

[mysparrow]

hi i'm relatively new to this board and haven't really posted before. but i'd like to share what i think.

firstly any christian writer is fallible, so errors appear in their books, but this doesnot mean the whole book is junk. but we must use scripture and holy spirit guidence to discern any spiritual principles in the book.

secondly i reckon that healing of sickness and pain is a sign of God's Kingdom in our midst. this is why Jesus had a healing ministry to demonstrate this. although he didn't heal everyone. so should we consequently expect healing for everyone? and if we dont expect healing for everyone, should this effect how we pray about healing.

thirdly from personal experience, healing is not always a simple act of praying, miracle happens, and all is well.
i have had/still have severe and enduring mental health problems as professionals like to say. i'm diagnosed as having severe depression with pychosis, and bi-polar. my reason for sharing this, is because my healing from this has never been sudden in answer to prayer, but i am weller now than i was years ago, so God has been healing me but it has been over a peroid of time. and in this time the healing has obviuosly glorified God, but so has the continuation of my illness in variuos different ways.

however i would not stop hoping and praying for healing as i believe it is God's plan for me, and he will be glorified through that. but it is in his timing that he heals me totally, and how he does it is up to him.
however whilst i am ill, i pray for God to use me and my illness to bring Glory to him.

does all that make sense.

i think that the gist of it for me is have hope in God's healing power, but also submit to God's purposes and way of doing things. (which isn't always understandable to us)

so i reckon PDL, is too simplistic in making this statement.

what does anyone think of what i've said



i posted this on the PDL thread but thought it also worth posting it here

wonderful post !

Welcome to CF!

 

[Harlan Norris]

Would everyone please get over this junk about Job?

Does everyone know that the book of Job lasted about 9 months??

Why do people develop doctrine from the book of Job and use Job's problems (that were caused by Satan) to justify their life-long "conditions"?? It's not right!

God was not the one testing Job! Do you think God is so dumb that He needs to "test" us? Why does a school teacher "test" a child? To find out what they are made of and what they know, right? Well, I think God can do that without half destroying our lives! Does a school teacher give her students the flu or beat them over the head with a brick to "test" them? Does a school teacher unleash the school bully to rip a child apart to "test" them? No, she tests the students with her words. How much more loving is our heavenly Father than a school teacher?

God's Word is the ultimate test. If a believer isn't obeying God's Word, the results will be evident in his life. God knows your heart. He does not need to "put you through the ringer" to find out what level your faith is on. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, I don't think He needs to tempt us so that He can see how long we'll stand. That's totally unscriptural.

Can we stick to the New Testament scriptures on this, please? You can't find one New Testament example where God strikes a believer with cancer or murders someone's children to "test" them.

I'll never in my life figure out why people want to continue believing such a wicked concept of my heavenly Father. It never ceases to amaze me the things that people come up with to hold God responsible for.

When people were healed by Jesus he often said your faith has set you free.This life is temporary.There are those that are in dire straits that face it without fear.Others can't stand any hardship.Whats the difference? Faith is the difference.Those with faith serve as an example to strengthen the rest.The hardships of this life are nothing compared to the gloryous life prepared for those who love God.If evil things come from satan,we need to remember that satan cannot do anything that God does not allow.Even if we don't understand,everything is part of Gods purpose.God is glorified by those that fix their eye on their heavenly reward,forgetting or endureing their trouble,for the love of God.

 

[God_follower]

glo·ri·fy

1. To give glory, honor, or high praise to; exalt.
2. To cause to be or seem more glorious or excellent than is actually the case: Your descriptions have glorified an average house into a mansion.
3. To give glory to, especially through worship.

Here we have the definition of glorify, several meanings are basicaly lift up and one means to give glory to especially through worship...

My thoughts are veried... They lean toward Job in the OT and the instruction to be thankful for all things. The OT is a good place to get information, although things may be different after Jesus. on a different point of view theres sickness itself. There exists a mindset that lets people glorify God because they even got a disease in the first place. I think i am one of them. I dont glorify Him because I have it, I glorify Him because I know that i'm doing something right thats making the enemy angry enough to give me this... and I glorify God because I know he has helped me get this far, and i know He will help me through this as well.

but does the sickness itself cause my glorifying of God or the position that it represents? I'm still unsure, I shall think more on this at work, where i ussually stand there while I wait for dishes to wash...

 

[habeas]

Can we stick to the New Testament scriptures on this, please? You can't find one New Testament example where God strikes a believer with cancer or murders someone's children to "test" them.

I'll never in my life figure out why people want to continue believing such a wicked concept of my heavenly Father. It never ceases to amaze me the things that people come up with to hold God responsible for.

What is wrong with the OT? It covers a much longer time period than the NT. Does God change? Is He not the same God yesterday as He is today? Is He not the same God who tested Abraham by asking him to slay Isaac? That must have been a very emotionally painful thing for Abraham. Is this a "wicked" concept of God?

Okay, here are some NT passages for you:

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice in as much as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, that when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." Pet. 4:12, 13.

"If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it. For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life? Indeed, what can they give in return for their life?" Mark 8:34-37
So, you say, persecutions are okay as long as they are short-lived and don't affect someone's health or wealth or long life. You allow for persecutions but do not believe that these persecutions can deprive you of your health, your prosperity or even your very life? When you are put into a rotten stinking jail in a third world country for evangelizing, do you think it does not affect your health and your income? Do you think a government will not seize all your assets and put you out of business?

God does not want anyone to die before they've had the long life we've been promised. That's against God's will, right, or at least since the NT? Let's just ignore John the Baptist whose head was chopped off, Paul, Stephen and all the martyred apostles and all those who had the faith to put their lives on the line during the Inquisition , stood up for Christ and were tortured and murdered for it. Before that, they suffered and lost all their worldly goods and were thrown in jail and mistreated. Lets ignore all the other "partakers of Christ's sufferings" as well.

Seek to preserve your life and you will lose it, lose your life for My sake and you will find it. Obviously, this means there are two lives: the temporal and the worldly life (is this life not but a vapor?) with all its trappings and THE LIFE, which is in Jesus Christ alone. THE LIFE is riches of a kind that cannot be matched by anything in this temporal life. It is exceeding joy in the midst of pain and sorrow and peace that surpasses all understanding in the midst of the most violent storm. Through this, I've learned that Jesus is the only thing worth living for. Sickness and/or any other kind of suffering can bring you closer to God, because you learn who your Rock is and what this LIFE is really about.

How can I care about things oe my life (except to the extent I can use them to carry out Gods' purpose), when I have Jesus, the love of my life! Who cares? I've had nothing, had much, lost all, gained "double for my trouble" - in cycles, but none of its really mine. It does not matter. All my resources must be used to serve God or they are worthless. He gives and takes away everything temporal in this life, including health, money and this shadow of a life itself. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, nothing.

If you're so anxious to stick to the New Testament, you should do so for your prosperity doctrines as well. If your heart is in the things of this world, you cannot please God. See, we are called to give it all up in our hearts. We are called to give up all to follow Him. Luke 18:1-30.

 

[calidog]

I would like to amend the subject of the thread that asks “Does sickness glorify God?” by asking, “CAN sickness glorify God?” Ever? Why?/Why not?

~Jim

Simply, because He allows it at all it brings Him glory.
Exo 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

Exo 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

As to why or how, we seldom get that answer in this lifetime.

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[LeeS]

Thank you, God willing, I won't take that drink.

He IS willing My prayers are with you brother.

 

[Evee]

What is wrong with the OT? It covers a much longer time period than the NT. Does God change? Is He not the same God yesterday as He is today? Is He not the same God who tested Abraham by asking him to slay Isaac? That must have been a very emotionally painful thing for Abraham. Is this a "wicked" concept of God?

Okay, here are some NT passages for you:

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice in as much as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings, that when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." Pet. 4:12, 13.

"If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake, and for the sake of the gospel, will save it. For what will it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit their life? Indeed, what can they give in return for their life?" Mark 8:34-37
So, you say, persecutions are okay as long as they are short-lived and don't affect someone's health or wealth or long life. You allow for persecutions but do not believe that these persecutions can deprive you of your health, your prosperity or even your very life? When you are put into a rotten stinking jail in a third world country for evangelizing, do you think it does not affect your health and your income? Do you think a government will not seize all your assets and put you out of business?

God does not want anyone to die before they've had the long life we've been promised. That's against God's will, right, or at least since the NT? Let's just ignore John the Baptist whose head was chopped off, Paul, Stephen and all the martyred apostles and all those who had the faith to put their lives on the line during the Inquisition , stood up for Christ and were tortured and murdered for it. Before that, they suffered and lost all their worldly goods and were thrown in jail and mistreated. Lets ignore all the other "partakers of Christ's sufferings" as well.

Seek to preserve your life and you will lose it, lose your life for My sake and you will find it. Obviously, this means there are two lives: the temporal and the worldly life (is this life not but a vapor?) with all its trappings and THE LIFE, which is in Jesus Christ alone. THE LIFE is riches of a kind that cannot be matched by anything in this temporal life. It is exceeding joy in the midst of pain and sorrow and peace that surpasses all understanding in the midst of the most violent storm. Through this, I've learned that Jesus is the only thing worth living for. Sickness and/or any other kind of suffering can bring you closer to God, because you learn who your Rock is and what this LIFE is really about.

How can I care about things oe my life (except to the extent I can use them to carry out Gods' purpose), when I have Jesus, the love of my life! Who cares? I've had nothing, had much, lost all, gained "double for my trouble" - in cycles, but none of its really mine. It does not matter. All my resources must be used to serve God or they are worthless. He gives and takes away everything temporal in this life, including health, money and this shadow of a life itself. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, nothing.

If you're so anxious to stick to the New Testament, you should do so for your prosperity doctrines as well. If your heart is in the things of this world, you cannot please God. See, we are called to give it all up in our hearts. We are called to give up all to follow Him. Luke 18:1-30.

Here you come in like a buzz saw quoting old testament scriptures then having the audicity to quote the new too. Actually I am joking.... and I agree with your post.
In fact I really agree with your post.
I tried to rep you but I must have liked other posts of yours also.

 

[justinstout]

Let's all jump on the bandwagon of remarks toward JustinStout, why don't we? For some reason, since he believes that God does not want him to be sick and depressed, everyone seems to be coming out against him.

I still haven't seen any New Testament scriptures (you know, after the cross) that show a believer being sick for God's "glory" or being afflicted by God with sickness. Biblical suffering under the New Covenant (you know, the covenant that we live under) is persecution, not sickness and disease.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Everyone...
Not so dude.

Let's all jump on the bandwagon of remarks toward JustinStout, why don't we? For some reason, since he believes that God does not want him to be sick and depressed, everyone seems to be coming out against him.

I still haven't seen any New Testament scriptures (you know, after the cross) that show a believer being sick for God's "glory" or being afflicted by God with sickness. Biblical suffering under the New Covenant (you know, the covenant that we live under) is persecution, not sickness and disease.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I believe that sin in some form is the cause of every sickness. It is not necessarily the sin of the person who is sick but somewhere along the line they are reaping the results of what someone sowed...all the way back to Adam. I don't believe originated from God. I believe that Adam and Eve were NEVER sick UNTIL after the fall. Therefore I beleive that all sickness leads to the same perpetrater. And it's not God.

Some people MAY be closer to God during sickness and maybe that is why they are sick. Not acknowledging God while we are well is sin. Yes, God will use whatever we give Him to use. If sickness is the only avenue thorough which some may draw near to Him then yes, He will use it. But the sickness is not what brings things together, it's God. I believe He receives greater glory in the prosperity and health of His saints.

The only reason why people are sick is because we all live in this world and we have bodies. It is as simple as that.

The glory of God is displayed when someone is healed through His power.

Any other doctrine to try and explain why people are sick is just clutching a straws and absolute nonsense.

Hey, and if sickness is the result of sin, then all of our doctors should be pastors!

 

[Joy]

Alleuia Oscarr, you know what some of us struggle with every day. These people don't know what they are talking about. It's so easy to say things like these when you have not had long-term illness or disability. It was interesting our vicar talked about the need for endurance today. I really miss the fellowship here.

 

[undecided]

its all very confusing!

 

[JimB]

The only reason why people are sick is because we all live in this world and we have bodies. It is as simple as that.
*****

Thanx Oscarr. While I may disagree somewhat with your conclusions in the remainder of the post, this statement is so simple.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8)

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5)

~Jim

 

[habeas]

Thanx Oscarr. While I may disagree somewhat with your conclusions in the remainder of the post, this statement is so simple.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8)

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Corinthians 5)

~Jim

I was just reading that very passage in Romans last night before I went to sleep. Are you spying on me? Now, I need to find the verse about corruptible nature of our flesh.