CAN sickness glorify God?

Jim M said:

Funny, when I/we quote a text out of the OT it is null-and-void because it is part of the “Old Covenant” but it is permissible for you to quote OT verses as proof-texts for your views on healing and prosperity. Let’s be fair.

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I've noticed that too.

justinstout said:

Simple.. to make the verse clearer to understand and make it fit with the rest of Scripture. We must compare Scripture with Scripture. The Scriptures do not contradict themselves. Your interpretation of the verse contradicted the whole ministry and nature of Jesus Christ. That's why I placed the period there, so that there can be understanding of what Jesus was saying and so that God will not be blamed for the man's blindness!

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Rather than altering the bible to fit your doctrine, it would be better to alter your doctrine to fit the bible.

Well folks,since im from a different denomination and therefore not permitted to debate in your forum here, my hands are tied concerning rebutting and refuting "Justinstout" who seems to have retreated to your forum and closed all his threads on the open forums.His anthropocentric doctrine is blatantly unbiblical and he seems to like twisting and turning this way this way and that to squirm out of having to give clear biblical answers to direct questions.It seems the rules change from day to day as he sees fit and as the occasion permits in accordnace with his own rules,however i do believe he has been given enough rope as it were as you have seen yourselves that he makes claims that are simply unbiblical and and at odds with plain scriptural truth. Claiming that David who is desribed in the bible as having a "Heart after God" and who was part of the messianic succesion was spiritually dead was the cataylist that finally exposed his blatant lack of even basic biblical historical knowledge.

Justin. Why don't you come back out into the open forums and discuss these things instead of hiding in a denominational forum? On second thoughts maybe not.At least there will only be a limited amount of people who will read the tripe you've splattered over these boards.
Im sorry that our charismatic brethren will have to put up with the insensitive triumphalism which you espouse. You claim to be a teacher of the truth but it is evident that you are a self appointed teacher who is apparently unaware of the damage you have the potential to inflict. Be assured Justin that I will pursue you across these forums and seek to pick up the pieces as you stomp your way from one catastrophe to another. The sad thing is that you think God is speaking to you in all this which makes it impossible to reason with you.
You have an unteachable spirit and lack anything close to humility and meekness.

So David did not need a savior?

I realize David asked God to create a clean heart in Him, and that it says he had a "heart after God" but it also says God made his feet like hinds feet.

Psa 18:33
33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.

I seriously doubt you are going to get much support for the idea that David was not unregenerate like all the rest of mankind. I mean... he was a murderer and an adulterer... and his hands were so bloody from war that God would not even let him build the temple.
He was excited for God to be sure... but He was still just a man.

Off topic

Oworm, If you would describe yourself as Spirit filled and/or charismatic, I'm sure you're allowed to post here. I'm a Spirit filled Methodist, not a Pentecostal.

oworm said:

Well folks,since im from a different denomination and therefore not permitted to debate in your forum here, my hands are tied concerning rebutting and refuting "Justinstout" who seems to have retreated to your forum and closed all his threads on the open forums.His anthropocentric doctrine is blatantly unbiblical and he seems to like twisting and turning this way this way and that to squirm out of having to give clear biblical answers to direct questions.It seems the rules change from day to day as he sees fit and as the occasion permits in accordnace with his own rules,however i do believe he has been given enough rope as it were as you have seen yourselves that he makes claims that are simply unbiblical and and at odds with plain scriptural truth. Claiming that David who is desribed in the bible as having a "Heart after God" and who was part of the messianic succesion was spiritually dead was the cataylist that finally exposed his blatant lack of even basic biblical historical knowledge.

Justin. Why don't you come back out into the open forums and discuss these things instead of hiding in a denominational forum? On second thoughts maybe not.At least there will only be a limited amount of people who will read the tripe you've splattered over these boards.
Im sorry that our charismatic brethren will have to put up with the insensitive triumphalism which you espouse. You claim to be a teacher of the truth but it is evident that you are a self appointed teacher who is apparently unaware of the damage you have the potential to inflict. Be assured Justin that I will pursue you across these forums and seek to pick up the pieces as you stomp your way from one catastrophe to another. The sad thing is that you think God is speaking to you in all this which makes it impossible to reason with you.
You have an unteachable spirit and lack anything close to humility and meekness.

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oworm,

I don't even know you. However, after a post like this, I could care less what you have to say. You want some scripture? Something Biblical? Here ya go:Whether you agree with Justin or not, he is your brother in Christ. You would do well to remember that.

lismore said:

You are saying someone can die of a disease and yet still have been healed of it?

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People have died in poverty on a bed stuffed with money.

lismore said:

Why cant you just seek the lord for healing and the power to heal others instead of inventing cliches.

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I'm sorry that words of scripture are viewed as cliches

I do seek the Lord for the manifestations of my healing and I do pray for others in like manner. When I pray I don't beg God to heal because He already has. However, I do pray what scripture says and I don't deny that the symptoms of disease are present but I deny their "right" to be there.

There are varying issues with each person. I don't claim to know the how's or the why's but I cannot allow my circumstances to dictate what is TRUTH. Jesus is TRUTH. The words of GOD are TRUTH. I must live according to HIS TRUTH and not the lies and false symtoms from the pits of hell that tell me differently. I also do not claim to have it all down perfectly, but I'm working on it. It's not easy claiming the Words of God in a world where most claim the circumstances instead...even those of the household of God.

lismore said:

Where did Jesus every send anyone away without obvious healing and they spent their whole lives claiming healing but with none ever appearing? The resources would be better spent seeking the Lord rather than claiming sick people are healed.

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When Jesus went to his own home town it's written that there were many he could not heal because of their unbelief.

probinson said:

oworm,



I don't even know you. However, after a post like this, I could care less what you have to say. You want some scripture? Something Biblical? Here ya go:

1 Corinthians 13:13

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

​

Whether you agree with Justin or not, he is your brother in Christ. You would do well to remember that.

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Thanks for the heads up. Love in scripture isnt always some mushy wishy washy thing though. Jesus rebuked Peter and Paul opposed Peter to his face remember??
I have nothing but love in my heart for the brethren. I love them enough to risk a retaliation like you have just done. Scripture tells me that i should not sin in my anger. It does not tell me not to be angry!!

LeeS said:

When Jesus went to his own home town it's written that there were many he could not heal because of their unbelief.

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Yes, but he didnt send them away, telling them they were healed but would never manifest it .

I fine these subject to be boring. God is going to do whatever He wants. The object of the lessons is to learn what He is teaching.

oworm said:

Thanks for the heads up. Love in scripture isnt always some mushy wishy washy thing though. Jesus rebuked Peter and Paul opposed Peter to his face remember??
I have nothing but love in my heart for the brethren. I love them enough to risk a retaliation like you have just done. Scripture tells me that i should not sin in my anger. It does not tell me not to be angry!!

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I have not retaliated. I'm simply reminding you, along with Justin and everyone else here (including myself), that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Whether we agree or not, we might as well learn to love each other now.

I've been in a number of these heated debates. When someone turns the focus on the credibility of the poster and not the issues at hand, that's when I stop listening. That's what I'm telling you. I would also suggest that you're the one with meekness and humility issues when you say:

oworm said:

Be assured Justin that I will pursue you across these forums and seek to pick up the pieces as you stomp your way from one catastrophe to another. The sad thing is that you think God is speaking to you in all this which makes it impossible to reason with you.
You have an unteachable spirit and lack anything close to humility and meekness.

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This type of hypocritical comments are hilarious! "You're not meek! You have no humility! Now I'm going to follow you around and tell everyone how wrong you are! I need to follow you so that I can try to "pick up the pieces." Wow. That's some awesome humility you're demonstrating there.

You know what I tell people when I don't agree with them? I tell them to spend time in the Word with their Father themselves. I don't tell them to listen to me in my wisdom. I tell people that they can seek God for themselves. They don't need me or you to "pick up the pieces" (whatever that means).

I don't have the answers. God does.

Hi Friend
I hope you are well

LeeS said:

People have died in poverty on a bed stuffed with money.



I'm sorry that words of scripture are viewed as cliches

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I was not meaning scripture. One cliche that comes to mind is 'act as if you are healed until the healing breaks into the physical realm'. This is a way to get round the fact that the person you prayed for was not healed. There is a story in the scripture where Jesus told the man to pick us his mat and walk. The difference is that the man Jesus met could now walk.

There is a scripure that says that all who came to Jesus were healed. When were they healed? When they came to him. Not 42 years later. The healing came when Jesus spoke the word, not before and not after. Dead when he spoke the word. The centurion took Jesus at his word and found his servant had been healed at the moment Jesus spoke the word.

The problem is friend, the mass healing on demand word was spoken by man, not yet by Jesus. Thats why so many people follow it but still require healing from Jesus.

LeeS said:

I do seek the Lord for the manifestations of my healing and I do pray for others in like manner. When I pray I don't beg God to heal because He already has. However, I do pray what scripture says and I don't deny that the symptoms of disease are present but I deny their "right" to be there.

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David called out to God from the depths of despair. the story of the persistent widow also shows that God will reward those with persistence.

In terms of authority, autocrator being the Greek word for emperor. God has the authority. When he speaks the word into a situation it can devolve authority onto us because God watches over his word to perfect it. he can use us as co-workers his purpose to fulfill. We are the ones who act at God's order- he does not watch over our words to perform them.

I dont really know or care about the rights of disease symtoms, get healed of the root of it would be my top priority.

LeeS said:

There are varying issues with each person. I don't claim to know the how's or the why's but I cannot allow my circumstances to dictate what is TRUTH. Jesus is TRUTH. The words of GOD are TRUTH. I must live according to HIS TRUTH and not the lies and false symtoms from the pits of hell that tell me differently. I also do not claim to have it all down perfectly, but I'm working on it. It's not easy claiming the Words of God in a world where most claim the circumstances instead...even those of the household of God.

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Well we are in agreement there. Where we disagree is that I think God wants to work on each person, to bring each person to Jesus Christ. Each has his own walk.

I dont think there is a uniform rule for all because we are all individiuals made in the image of God and God wants to have a relationship with all of us. There is no real do x and receive y because it worked for Jimbob or Polly down the street. Even salvation is an individual thing- for some its a prayer and counselling out front, for others its gradual for others no evangelist is involved its direct with God.

We cannot reduce a relationship to a formula!

lismore said:

Yes, but he didnt send them away, telling them they were healed but would never manifest it .

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I would never say "you are healed but you'll NEVER manifest it". Those are not words of scripture. Scripture says, "lay hands on the sick and the prayer of faith WILL heal".

When someone accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior and they don't feel anything different do you not tell them that according to scripture "all things are new and old things have passed away"? Do you withhold scriptrue from people because it's not manifesting in their lives yet?

enoch son said:

I fine these subject to be boring. God is going to do whatever He wants. The object of the lessons is to learn what He is teaching.

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If you find the subject boring then why are you reading? No one is forcing you to read anything.

LeeS said:

I would never say "you are healed but you'll NEVER manifest it". Those are not words of scripture. Scripture says, "lay hands on the sick and the prayer of faith WILL heal".

When someone accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior and they don't feel anything different do you not tell them that according to scripture "all things are new and old things have passed away"? Do you withhold scriptrue from people because it's not manifesting in their lives yet?

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The scriputre says that all who came to Jesus were healed. The lame walked home, the blind saw him, the deaf heard, the demons came out with a shreik!

I dont see how Jesus sent anyone away with the same problem still evident for many years but saying they were healed. People would think he was a fraud!

We are just sticking on this one point- can a person be healed and not evidence this? I dont see any scriptural justification for such a belief.

God Bless

Lismore

lismore said:

Hi Friend
I hope you are well

We cannot reduce a relationship to a formula!

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I've already clarified that I don't have a formula. And the examples of cliches' you used I don't believe I've ever used. I've also clarified that God wants to work on each individual where they are at and He will use whatever we give Him to use. I don't believe He makes us sick to teach us something. I do believe though that when we become sick He will use it. I understand what you are saying but I cannot deny the scripture "by His stripes I AM healed". I either AM or am not. To me, to say I'm not is calling God a liar. So I must claim what He says vs what my circumstances say.

It reminds me of the time I had symptoms of hypoglycemia. My doctor put me through the 8 hour sugar test and I did get pretty sick from that sugar drink. When the tests came back there was nothing wrong with me. I asked my Penticostal doctor, "then why was I getting sick?". Her response: "false symptoms from the pits of hell". I've never had another symptom since then.

It took me a long time to get to an understanding on this issue and while I don't claim to have it perfectly (if only I could just speak it as Jesus did and it would manifest) but I still try and speak what God says vs what the circumstances say. I know it does not make sense to the natural mind and I struggle with the concept too but to me to say differently would be calling God a liar.

probinson said:

I'm simply reminding you, along with Justin and everyone else here (including myself), that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Whether we agree or not, we might as well learn to love each other now.

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I fully agree with you

I've been in a number of these heated debates. When someone turns the focus on the credibility of the poster and not the issues at hand, that's when I stop listening. That's what I'm telling you.

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When Paul questioned the credibility of the "super apostles" in 2 Cor 11:5 he did not mince his words. when John addressed the "Brood of vipers" in Matt 3:7 he was questioning the credibility of the crowds. When Jesus addressed the same types as "Snakes and brood of vipers" He most assuredly wasnt missing the mark when he addressed them! there are a myriad of other references where the Lord or his disciples rebuked and corrected bad behaviour and bad doctrine.

I would also suggest that you're the one with meekness and humility issues

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I will do everything in my power and on my knees to address that and if im found to be guilty I will repent. Im hoping that when you made that statement you examined your own heart also. Always good to be careful when we think we are standing lest we fall,and im only too painfully aware of the consequences of such an action or attitude!

when you say This type of hypocritical comments are hilarious!

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Now you are bordering on making judgements out of ignorance. Hypocrysy is the art of wearing a mask and appearing to be something you are not. Im not sure that you were aware of what hypocrysy really is so i will give you the benefit of the doupt. Im not aware that I have hidden behind a mask of self righteouness since i consider myself to be nothing more than a vile and filthy sinner saved by grace alone and wearing the garment of Christs righteousness alone.

"You're not meek! You have no humility! Now I'm going to follow you around and tell everyone how wrong you are! I need to follow you so that I can try to "pick up the pieces." Wow. That's some awesome humility you're demonstrating there.

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Im not sure if you are aware what biblical humility is, so again i will give you the benefit of the doupt. People are in danger being damaged by the type of teaching that Justin has been espousing. I go around behind and try to get Justin to discuss his doctrine scripturally but he keeps making up his own rules.
I have a deep and abiding passion for the lost and for the weakest and most timid of God saints. they are like lambs to me and the Lord has blessed me with a shepherds heart for them. When i percieve wolves attempting to tear them apart with unsound and unscriptural doctrine I cannot help but want to come to their aid and try to balance the discussion with scripture.you will see that i have already been doing that in answer to your post. I have not stepped outside the boundary of scripture in my responses.

You know what I tell people when I don't agree with them? I tell them to spend time in the Word with their Father themselves.

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yes I do that and if the person refuses to do that then fine but when they persist on spreading unbiblical and unsound doctrine around for others to see.Others who may be swayed or tossed to and fro then I react. just like Jeus did and just like the apostles did when they percieved bad teaching being spread around in the name of Christ. The epistles and the book of acts are full of such instances when bsad teachers were exposed and rebuked.

I don't tell them to listen to me in my wisdom.

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Neither do I. I always refer people to scripture. look at my posting history and the evidence will be irrefutable.

I tell people that they can seek God for themselves.

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Absolutely,but not everyone seeks God for himself does he?

They don't need me or you to "pick up the pieces" (whatever that means).

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2 Tim4:2 is an exhortation to "Correct,rebuke and encourage" That seems to be a case for "picking up the pieces"

I don't have the answers. God does.

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Absolutely! And where are those answers? He gave us them in a book about Himself and us. We find the answers in that book by careful and dedicated study and application. God uses men to minister to his flock. the bible is the tool he provided!

LeeS said:

If you find the subject boring then why are you reading? No one is forcing you to read anything.

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Thats the point! You miss the point because you are caught up in the event and not the reason for it. And what the point you ask. As Jesus said "It is for the glory of God."