Can Salvation be lost?

[BNR32FAN]

Did you miss Jesus speaking earlier in John 6 ...

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I already explained all three of those verses even providing the Greek definitions when we first began this discussion. My interpretation lines up with all scripture, your’s doesn’t. When compared to John 15:1-7 you have to resort to contradicting what Christ said in order to conform the message to coincide with your interpretation. You have to say that the branches who were cut off for not bearing fruit were not in Christ when He specifically stated that they were. Reformers always struggle with John 15, they think it’s some big mystery when it’s not. That’s because they’re trying to interpret it in a way that doesn’t contradict their doctrines but they can’t. I know this because I did the same thing about 4 years ago. The apostolic church still exists today teaching the same theology it always has. You just have to be willing to do some study to find it. Reformed theology has been rejected by every single church established by the apostles and isn’t backed by any of the early church writings. Unfortunately it’s the mainstream religion in western civilization because it sounds appealing on the surface but it doesn’t line up with all scripture.

 

[prophecy_uk]

I already explained all three of those verses even providing the Greek definitions when we first began this discussion. My interpretation lines up with all scripture, your’s doesn’t. When compared to John 15:1-7 you have to resort to contradicting what Christ said in order to conform the message to coincide with your interpretation. You have to say that the branches who were cut off for not bearing fruit were not in Christ when He specifically stated that they were. Reformers always struggle with John 15, they think it’s some big mystery when it’s not. That’s because they’re trying to interpret it in a way that doesn’t contradict their doctrines but they can’t. I know this because I did the same thing about 4 years ago. The apostolic church still exists today teaching the same theology it always has. You just have to be willing to do some study to find it. Reformed theology has been rejected by every single church established by the apostles and isn’t backed by any of the early church writings. Unfortunately it’s the mainstream religion in western civilization because it sounds appealing on the surface but it doesn’t line up with all scripture.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.



Do I have to correct absolutely everything of everybody on this entire forum while I am here ?


Why do you people speak things that means so little, and that is talking about nothing ?


It is most simple, yet even that you have to confuse ?


Jesus is the vine that needed to be cut off, to die so He can bear much fruit, and when this occured ( by the laying down of His life) then the branches can shoot forth as they are in Him, and He in them ( all is then one together through the Spirit of life given into them to live with and bear fruit with ( the fruit of the Spirit they then produce)



John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.



Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.



Do I have to correct absolutely everything of everybody on this entire forum while I am here ?


Why do you people speak things that means so little, and that is talking about nothing ?


It is most simple, yet even that you have to confuse ?


Jesus is the vine that needed to be cut off, to die so He can bear much fruit, and when this occured ( by the laying down of His life) then the branches can shoot forth as they are in Him, and He in them ( all is then one together through the Spirit of life given into them to live with and bear fruit with ( the fruit of the Spirit they then produce)



John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.



Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

He never said anything about The Father cutting off the vine, He said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that doesn’t bear fruit and every branch that bears fruit He prunes/cleanses it. This message is about our connection to Christ not about His resurrection.

 

[Hammster]

Your lack of willingness to give any sort of explanation proves your inability to do so. I’ve provided several lengthy explanations to support my theology. You on the other hand have only provided a minimalist of drive by pop shots with zero explanation at all. You bring nothing to the discussion to discuss because you already know that I will destroy any explanation you can provide by quoting the scriptures since your explanations are a directly contradiction to what is written. I’m right here ready to face any scripture anyone has to support my theology without any contradictions. I’m willing and able to do this because I know my theology is sound as it should be because it’s what the church has taught throughout the centuries from the very beginning. My theology wasn’t formulated 500 years ago.

The flaw is that fruit production is solely the responsibility of God, yet you somehow think we contribute or don’t contribute. There’s nothing in the passage that supported s this, and it actually contradicts it.

 

[Hammster]

Your failure to specify a single scripture to back that theory is a concern. Kindly read post #74 and tell me what you disagree with? Use scriptures for your rebuttal. Let's start from there.

Seriously? I referenced the bulk of Romans.

 

[Hammster]

Violet the covenant and incur its curse - yet the person is still in right standing with God, huh?

No.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The flaw is that fruit production is solely the responsibility of God, yet you somehow think we contribute or don’t contribute. There’s nothing in the passage that supported s this, and it actually contradicts it.

Not according to Luke 13:6-9.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Ive shown you this several times.

 

[Hammster]

Not according to Luke 13:6-9.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Ive shown you this several times.

And as usual, you’ve abandoned the passage in question. Okay, then in the parable of the sower and seeds, what was the evidence of true conversion?

 

[BNR32FAN]

And as usual, you’ve abandoned the passage in question. Okay, then in the parable of the sower and seeds, what was the evidence of true conversion?

I used another passage to support my interpretation of John 15:2 as a second piece of evidence reaffirming the validity of my interpretation. So before we just skip over this passage, according to Luke 13:6-9 are we guaranteed to bear fruit if Christ is working to assist us?

As for your question of the parable of the sower and the seed He didn’t say anything about true conversion. True conversion only exists in your interpretation. What He did say is that some will believe for a while then later fall away. If they believed then their conversion was true but they didn’t maintain their belief, they didn’t abide in Christ. These were not false professors, false professors don’t really believe. Are you going to say that those who fall away never truly believed?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The flaw is that fruit production is solely the responsibility of God, yet you somehow think we contribute or don’t contribute. There’s nothing in the passage that supported s this, and it actually contradicts it.

There’s nothing that contradicts that those who are in Christ may not bear fruit. He never said that all who are in Christ will bear fruit. What He did say is those who remain in Him will bear fruit. He clearly just finished saying that The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. he also said to His 11 faithful apostles whom we know were true believers REMAIN in Me as you cannot bear fruit of yourself.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it ABIDES/REMAINS in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who ABIDES/REMAINS in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. IF you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Hammster]

I used another passage to support my interpretation of John 15:2 as a second piece of evidence reaffirming the validity of my interpretation. So before we just skip over this passage, according to Luke 13:6-9 are we guaranteed to bear fruit if Christ is working to assist us?

As for your question of the parable of the sower and the seed He didn’t say anything about true conversion. True conversion only exists in your interpretation. What He did say is that some will believe for a while then later fall away. If they believed then their conversion was true but they didn’t maintain their belief, they didn’t abide in Christ. These were not false professors, false professors don’t really believe. Are you going to say that those who fall away never truly believed?

You used a parable about Israel that has nothing to do with John 15.

 

[Hammster]

There’s nothing that contradicts that those who are in Christ may not bear fruit. He never said that all who are in Christ will bear fruit. What He did say is those who remain in Him will bear fruit. He clearly just finished saying that The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. he also said to His 11 faithful apostles whom we know were true believers REMAIN in Me as you cannot bear fruit of yourself.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it ABIDES/REMAINS in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who ABIDES/REMAINS in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. IF you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If they haven’t remained, what exactly are they cut off from?

 

[The Liturgist]

Seriously? I referenced the bulk of Romans.

Indeed, and I, writing in concurrence with your post, referenced all of Galatians.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

ROMANS AND GALATIANS PROVES YOU CANNOT BE LOST. REALLY???

Now I can say (hypothetically) I referenced all of Genesis to Revelation which shows if we choose to turn away from God and depart the faith we will lose salvation. Or you can ask me why do you claim we can lose salvation? I can say to you Genesis to Revelation in context says so. Now if I do not show you where it says in Genesis to Revelation that we can depart the faith and lose salvation what am I truly saying or proving here? - Nothing because I have not shown and provided any scripture for these claims accept made some claim that the scripture say things I have never shown to you from the scriptures. Yet this is what has been posted all through this thread in regards to claims that salvation cannot be lost. The claims are made here that "Salvation cannot be lost. There’s no category in scripture for that." Then over 100+ scriptures are provided (here, here and here) stating that salvation can be lost if we choose to depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin. Then when asked where does it say in the scriptures we can depart the faith and continue in unbelief and sin and not lose our salvation and people say "all of Romans and Galatians" without providing any scriptures pointing out anywhere in Romans and Galatians we can be saved in unbelief and sin. What is really being said here? For me personally this simply demonstrates that there is no scripture for this teaching and would be like me saying "all of Genesis to Revelation" says so without me providing a single scripture from Genesis to Revelation that shows Gods salvation can be lost. If we have scriptures to support our teachings we should be honest and provide it should we not? If we do not have scripture then it should be a blessing to us that perhaps what we believe may not be supported in the scriptures and be thankful for God's blessing so that we can think about if what we believe is true or not true and follow what Gods' Word says. I believe we all must remember that our words do not really matter much here. Only Gods' Word is true according to the scriptures and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

May God bless you all as you seek Him through His Word.

 

[prophecy_uk]

He never said anything about The Father cutting off the vine, He said The Father cuts off every branch in Me that doesn’t bear fruit and every branch that bears fruit He prunes/cleanses it. This message is about our connection to Christ not about His resurrection.

The Gospel has no meaning until Christ goes away, then begins pruning cleansing and we have no connection but through His resurrection ( which men deny in works of evil)..



John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Gospel has no meaning until Christ goes away, then begins pruning cleansing and we have no connection but through His resurrection ( which men deny in works of evil)..



John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

This still doesn’t change the fact that He was referring to the branches (those who are in Christ) being cut off not the vine (Christ Himself).

 

[rturner76]

Become Christian and renownce Christ-lost
Blaspheme the Holt Spirit=lost
Faith without works is dead. Accept the new life and continue your old life-shaky ground, could be lost

Ask Jesus and his brother James

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.”

1 John 3:21-22 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.

James 2 14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Become Christian and renownce Christ-lost
Blaspheme the Holt Spirit=lost
Faith without works is dead. Accept the new life and continue your old life-shaky ground, could be lost

Ask Jesus and his brother James

John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.”

1 John 3:21-22 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.

James 2 14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[prophecy_uk]

This still doesn’t change the fact that He was referring to the branches (those who are in Christ) being cut off not the vine (Christ Himself).

Nobody is in Christ until Christ is in us, and Christ is cut off and restored, and restores us to God, and if we do not cut off our life, we follow our own way instead