Can Salvation be lost?

BNR32FAN

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What about someone who's severely addicted and can't overcome sin, even though they want to?

I don’t know anyone who can overcome sin completely but everyone can repent. The backsliders I was referring to are the ones who know they’re doing wrong but they just continue in their sin without repenting.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I don’t know anyone who can overcome sin completely but everyone can repent. The backsliders I was referring to are the ones who know they’re doing wrong but they just continue in their sin without repenting.

That's what I'm talking about too. Except you're talking about those who can stop and won't. Whereas I'm talking about those who can't stop, even though they know it's wrong and they want to. I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm just looking to sort it out.
 
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A_Thinker

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According to Jesus, it’s the only work that we do to be saved.

No that’s not what He said at all. Please quote where you think He said that.
John 6

25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 
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Trivalee

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Only Christ knows, man can't tell. I personally believe when saved/born again/accepting Christ with a true and humble heart, one can't loose their salvation, but they can loose their true love/joy they once had with Christ by many methods- be it the trappings of this world, not repenting from your sins/convictions that Christ embeds into your heart through sanctification, or relying too on ones culture/tradition.

Its not about how good you think you should be for Christ, its about what Christ means to you. Does he mean everything, does he bring real joy into your heart?

Romans 14 is a chapter close to my heart at present. Many Christians are obsessed with the minor issues in Christianity and blow them out of proportion. They major in minor issues, their focus is on the small moat in their brother or sisters eye, rather than the big leavened beam of pride, high-minded grandeur, old traditions and baggage in their own eye.

A very grave sin in the sight of Christ.

I've come across similar vacuous rhetorics by Christians who, either out of ignorance or a willful attempt to silence the tiny voice in their heart warning them they are on a precipice on account of their lifestyle after being saved, promote identical argument to deny the fact they could lose their salvation.

This line of argument provides only false security because the scriptures are clear on the subject.

A believer's love and joy is salvation in Christ, take that away and, they have nothing. But according to you, that can be taken away and, they'll still retain their salvation.

Brother in Christ, I pray for people with your mindset every day that the good Lord give them the grace to live a righteous life and remain faithful till the end of life on earth. Because the flip side of this scenario is a life lived in the illusion of being saved only find out when one stands before the Righteous Judge that their names are not in the Book of Life.
 
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Trivalee

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That there are alot of people in church that aren't saved is a scary and sad thought.

Sad, but a fact according to 2 Tim 2:20-21. What is scary is that some of them were saved before losing on account of unrighteousness (1 Tim 4:1). But they will be the first to tell you they're going to heaven.
 
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Trivalee

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I agree with much of what you said. I have some problem with the last part "in the end it comes down to the individual". I don't know why some people lose faith, but of course the individual is responsible. At the same time God wants to keep us and won't cut us off the tree for just any reason. He also fertilizes the soil. So... given, we trust in Him and not our own efforts.

I'd rather you made up your mind one way or another. Don't sit on the fence by saying you agree with much of what I said and then contradict that view by alluding to the contrary.

If you still don't get it after reading my detailed exegesis backed by scripture; I have nothing more to add.
 
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Trivalee

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Salvation cannot be lost. There’s no category in scripture for that. God is the one who changes the heart. We can’t undo what God has done.

I know you want scripture, but there’s a lot and I don’t want to flood this thread. Suffice it to say, the first 11 chapters of Romans explains it nicely.

Your failure to specify a single scripture to back that theory is a concern. Kindly read post #74 and tell me what you disagree with? Use scriptures for your rebuttal. Let's start from there.
 
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Trivalee

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You’re almost right. You can violate the covenant and incur the cursings of the covenant. But that’s not the same thing as “losing” salvation. There’s no “losing” language in the covenant.

Violet the covenant and incur its curse - yet the person is still in right standing with God, huh?
 
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Trivalee

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For this passage to be a completely defensible argument for the loss of a believers salvation, ... it has to be ASSUMED that Jesus is speaking of "those who have believed".

But the passage does not make that clear. These could easily be pretenders, ... such as Jesus met often in His ministry.

Also, the work that the Father desires is identified by Jesus as "believing upon the One He has sent" in John 6

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

I trust you have read Rom 11? What do you understand in verses 20 (about Israel) and 22 (Gentiles)? Paul's argument is unambiguous. Tell me what you understood by "otherwise (Gentiles grafted into the olive tree) thou also shall be cut off"?

Bear in mind that an unsaved CANNOT be grafted in, to begin with. So those warned they could potentially be cut off (removed from Christ/lose salvation) are genuinely saved believers!!!
 
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Trivalee

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Ah, but this King has said, that having once accepted you as His own, He will never cast you aside. And this King does not go back on His word ...

Even if you throw his sacrifice and mercy back on his face and go your own way like some of the apostles who worked with Paul (1 Tim 1:19-20 & 2 Tim 1:15)?
 
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Trivalee

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Indeed, this is actually a good starting point @LoveGodsWord , because my view is that I agree with @Hammster that we cannot lose our salvation based on Romans 1-11, and Galatians, from violating the Law, the Covenant with Israel, but we can undo our salvation and wreck it as it were by choosing to follow a different belief system, or by preaching a false Gospel, based on Galatians 1:8.

Brothers, I am a simpleton and semantics often confuse me. So, please talk to me like you're addressing a 10-year-old. Tell me how "we cannot lose our salvation" on the one hand, but we can "undo and wreck it" if we choose a different belief system?

Be kind enough to tell me the difference between the two?
 
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zoidar

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I'd rather you made up your mind one way or another. Don't sit on the fence by saying you agree with much of what I said and then contradict that view by alluding to the contrary.

If you still don't get it after reading my detailed exegesis backed by scripture; I have nothing more to add.

You could be a bit more friendly. By your attitude it takes away any motivation to have a further conversation.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That's what I'm talking about too. Except you're talking about those who can stop and won't. Whereas I'm talking about those who can't stop, even though they know it's wrong and they want to. I'm not trying to challenge you, I'm just looking to sort it out.

If a person has received the Holy Spirit they can stop because they are no longer a slave to sin. They have received grace and are fully capable of pleasing God. Anyone who literally can’t stop sinning hasn’t received grace or the Holy Spirit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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John 6

25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Yes I’m very familiar with the message which is why I didn’t even have to look it up to know that He never said that’s the only thing we must do. Did you forget about John 15? The message he gave to His 11 faithful apostles? We also have to remain in Him. We also have to hear His words and act on them. Matthew 7:21-27. Believing is the first step towards salvation not the last. Everyone must believe to be saved, then they will receive the Holy Spirit who will further instruct them.
 
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There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

Matt 18 Jesus explains "forgiveness revoked" and ends with the warning "so shall My Father do to each one of you IF..."

in Romans 11 Paul specifically warns the saved person to fear "for if God did not spare them - He may not spare you either"

Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.
 
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prophecy_uk

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SDA only are law keepers ( which is not the law of faith).

Also, there is one who completely overcame sin, as that is to have a complete law of faith in the heart, that is how the complete world was made and we are complete in Him. ( will you people ever stop your vain talk?)..


Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:



In the day of their fasts,(whatever they are fasting from in that day) they find their own pleasures, they fast for strife and debate. ( this is detailed again in the new testament they are full of envy, debate, deceit) to make their voice to be heard on high.

God declares, this way is not the way the Lord has chosen, for a man on a day to afflict his soul, to bow down his head, this is not called a fast nor an acceptable day to the Lord......



Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?




The fast ( and the day) the Lord has chosen is to loosen wickedness in it's bands, undoing heavy burdens from others, letting the oppressed ( of the devil) free, breaking every yoke of the devil, how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power, who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil, God was with Him...



Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?





To not hide yourself from your own flesh, but to bring the poor to your own house, then the glory of the Lord is your reward and your righteousness goes before you.

Then you shall call and the Lord shall answer, if you take away the yoke ( of bondage) and the putting forth of your finger ( debating and accusing) and speaking vanity ( for your strife and debate) to instead give mercy and draw out your soul to the hungry and help the afflicted soul, then your light rises in obscurity.

Jesus teaching on the sabbath, loosed a woman from her infirmity, and she was made straight and glorified God...




Isaiah 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy reward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:

Luke 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.



The ruler of the synagogue was angry, as Jesus had healed on the sabbath ( dong the works of God as on every day as Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to day and for ever)

Jesus answers the hypocrites, how they do good for their own on sabbath day, and satan had bound that woman eighteen years, and she ought to be loose3d on the sabbath day ( God especially doing His work on the sabbath day)

Then all the adversaries of the Lord were ashamed and the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by the Lord..




Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Luke 13:14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15 The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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SDA only are law keepers ( which is not the law of faith).
Perhaps you have a misunderstanding? I do not know anyone that believes what you are saying here. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved, it is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation through faith in God's Word and is the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12. According to the scriptures no one receives God's Grace if they do not believe and follow God's Word (see John 3:16-21; Hebrews 10:26-31). Faith therefore does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods law in all those who believe and follow Gods' Word (see Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 8:4 etc). So according to the scriptures provided above salvation can be lost as Gods' salvation is conditional on believing and following (the fruit) what God's Word says (see also James 2:17-26).

Hope this is helpful.
 
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prophecy_uk

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Perhaps you have a misunderstanding? I do not know anyone that believes what you are saying here. According to the scriptures we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved, it is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation through faith in God's Word and is the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. At the second coming Christs reward is with him *Revelation 22:12. According to the scriptures no one receives God's Grace if they do not believe and follow God's Word (see John 3:16-21; Hebrews 10:26-31). Faith therefore does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods law in all those who believe and follow Gods' Word (see Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 8:4 etc).

Hope this is helpful.




That is right, yet you teach old testament laws, such as sabbath keeping, and clean and unclean for what to eat. Your whole doctrine is keeping law, and your whole religion ( a divided sect of Christianity when we are forbidden to have divisions) is a religion that is like a diluted form of Judaism, but is still not faith, or would know, let every man be fully persuaded, and nothing is unclean of itself..


Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


1 Timothy 4:Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.




"When Did Adventists Stop Eating Unclean Meat?
In 1863 Ellen White had a vision in which God gave her the health reform message. Part of this message was that Adventists should give up eating pork because it would cause health issues including cancer.

For many years the argument against eating pork was purely for health reasons and had nothing to do with the unclean meats of the Bible.

Overtime other (unclean) meats were pulled into this category by various SDA members. Ellen White eventually made some connection to the Biblical health laws saying that the difference “between articles of food as clean and unclean” was not “merely ceremonial and arbitrary regulation, but was based upon sanitary principles.” She also stated that the Jewish people had such great health due to their practice of abstaining from unclean foods."
 
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A_Thinker

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A believer's love and joy is salvation in Christ, take that away and, they have nothing. But according to you, that can be taken away and, they'll still retain their salvation.
It is the difference between relationship and fellowship. The Lord says that He chastens all that are His. That can't be true if He disowns them at the first sign of disobedience.

I've seen and experienced the chastening of the Lord. It lets me know that I am His ...

Hebrews 12

6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
 
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