Can Salvation be lost?

[The Liturgist]

I did not call you anything. I only told you the truth the first time dear friend. What has Romans 1-11 that you posted to someone else have to do with my discussion with you? -Nothing.

@Hammster wrote this in response to your post:

Salvation cannot be lost. There’s no category in scripture for that. God is the one who changes the heart. We can’t undo what God has done.

I know you want scripture, but there’s a lot and I don’t want to flood this thread. Suffice it to say, the first 11 chapters of Romans explains it nicely.

He linked to that text here:

Calling me a liar is also bad form.

Can Salvation be lost?

Now, while I disagree with @Hammster on this issue, I also disagree with you, because the reason why you think salvation can be forfeit is erroneous for the reasons Hammster expressed. My only disagreement with Hammster is that basically, if we decide we no longer want to be Christian, but want to embrace Judaism, or Buddhism, or Jainism, or some other religion, God will not prevent us from leaving and will not force us to spend an eternity in his presence when clearly we don’t love him. It’s like what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.”

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Indeed, this is entirely correct. Or as I am fond of quoting, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware likes to say the one thing God cannot do is force us to love Him.

Why do you post Hammster as "winner" above yet you say in your post here responding to Fervant that he is entirely correct when I have only posted the exact same thing showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word and we can at anytime choose to depart the faith? Or are you just giving out freebies.

 

[The Liturgist]

I know that this is a tactic you use frequently in that you make it look like disagreement with you is actually disagreement with God’s word. It’s poor form.

Please forgive me but I do not believe you and have shown why from the scriptures. So we will agree to disagree. I only wish you well.

Take Care.

Respectfully, you did this to me in another thread, the thread in CCT on whether Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath. You accused me of disagreeing with the scriptural texts which you provided, which was not the case, and would never be the case, and I had provided my interpretation of those texts. And now I see you doing the same thing to Hammster.

Now @Hammster and I do not agree on everything, for example, we disagree on the doctrine of Cyril of Alexandria and the Council of Ephesus, (specifically, whether or not Mary is the Mother of God, and the principle of communicatio idiomatum) but neither of us has ever accused the other of disagreeing with Sacred Scripture or the Word of God, and I have enormous personal respect for @Hammster and enjoy talking with him, even if we represent different schools of thought on some issues.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

@Hammster
Now, while I disagree with @Hammster on this issue, I also disagree with you, because the reason why you think salvation can be forfeit is erroneous for the reasons Hammster expressed.

And what were those reasons? Have you been following my discussion with Hammster or are you just here for a disagreement? Details please. What is it in the posts and the scriptures I have provided here that you disagree and why. Let's talk scripture and detailed please.

My only disagreement with Hammster is that basically, if we decide we no longer want to be Christian, but want to embrace Judaism, or Buddhism, or Jainism, or some other religion, God will not prevent us from leaving and will not force us to spend an eternity in his presence when clearly we don’t love him. It’s like what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.”

So your agreeing with me now . I am finding this conversation with you hard to follow...

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Respectfully, you did this to me in another thread, the thread in CCT on whether Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath. You accused me of disagreeing with the scriptural texts which you provided, which was not the case, and would never be the case, and I had provided my interpretation of those texts. And now I see you doing the same thing to Hammster.

So you cannot tell me in the posts and scriptures that I have provided here what it is you disagree with?

Now @Hammster and I do not agree on everything, for example, we disagree on the doctrine of Cyril of Alexandria and the Council of Ephesus, (specifically, whether or not Mary is the Mother of God, and the principle of communicatio idiomatum) but neither of us has ever accused the other of disagreeing with Sacred Scripture or the Word of God, and I have enormous personal respect for @Hammster and enjoy talking with him, even if we represent different schools of thought on some issues.

Is this a reason not to discuss the scriptures? That is all I am trying to do here. It seems not many want to do this though but for me only God's Words are true according to the scriptures our opinions do not really matter much (Romans 3:4).

Take Care.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why do you post Hammster as "winner" above yet you say in your post here responding to Fervant that he is entirely correct when I have only posted the exact same thing showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods' Word and we can at anytime choose to depart the faith? Or are you just giving out freebies.

Because I agree with what Hammster wrote. I don’t reserve positive ratings for people I am in total doctrinal alignment with. Indeed I think I am the only member of a traditional Congregational church on CF.com, and possibly the only Congregationalist, as I haven’t seen anyone from the United Church of Christ since I joined. So I would basically not be giving out very many positive ratings if I took such a hardline approach. I even gave you positive ratings on at least one occasion, I think.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Because I agree with what Hammster wrote. I don’t reserve positive ratings for people I am in total doctrinal alignment with. Indeed I think I am the only member of a traditional Congregational church on CF.com, and possibly the only Congregationalist, as I haven’t seen anyone from the United Church of Christ since I joined. So I would basically not be giving out very many positive ratings if I took such a hardline approach. I even gave you positive ratings on at least one occasion, I think.

And what was it that Hammster wrote that you are agreeing with? To be honest I do not mind who you give positive ratings to it does not really mean much to me. I was confused though because you were agreeing with someone in the next post that was saying what I was saying. So it did not really make sense to me but it is all good you are free to do whatever you like of course.

Take Care.

 

[The Liturgist]

So you cannot tell me in the posts and scriptures that I have provided here what it is you disagree with?

Is this a reason not to discuss the scriptures? That is all I am trying to do here. It seems not many want to do this though but for me only God's Words are true according to the scriptures our opinions do not really matter much (Romans 3:4).

Take Care.

Right but the thing is, you keep accusing us of disagreeing with scripture when we only disagree with your interpretation of scripture.

So your agreeing with me now . I am finding this conversation with you hard to follow...

Take Care.

No, I don’t agree with you. I think we can lose our salvation only if we want to lose it, not as a penalty tor failing to keep a covenant.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Right but the thing is, you keep accusing us of disagreeing with scripture when we only disagree with your interpretation of scripture. No, I don’t agree with you. I think we can lose our salvation only if we want to lose it, not as a penalty tor failing to keep a covenant.

Not at all. If someone provides scripture verbatim and someone provides only their own words and opinions and when asked cannot show their opinions from the scriptures who should we believe and follow? The Word of God (scripture) or the opinions of others that disagree with Gods' Word (scripture)? You say you do not agree with me, then you say (Liturgist); "I think we can lose our salvation only if we want to lose it, not as a penalty tor failing to keep a covenant." Where have I said differently in regards to how we can choose to lose our salvation by choosing to depart the faith? If I have not said anything differently then are we not in agreement? Although you have a contradiction here with the rest of your sentence. The penalty for departing the faith is indeed loss of salvation because the believer then becomes an unbeliever (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-3).

 

[The Liturgist]

Not at all. If someone provides scripture verbatim and someone provides only their own words and opinions and when asked cannot show their opinions from the scriptures who should we believe and follow?

It is actually possible, by quoting individual verses out of context, to misrepresent what the Bible says; Holy Scripture must be read exegetically and not eisegetically, which is why @Hammster cited Romans 1-11 entire.

So, if we assume, which we should, that someone is aware of all of scripture, while it is appropriate to, a single time, ask them how they interpret a certain passage, repeatedly stating that passage and claiming what they say proves that they disagree with the Word of God is unwarranted and as Hammster put it, in poor form.

You see, when you accuse someone of disagreeing with the Word of God, which is Jesus Christ, by the way, and not Scripture (John 1:1) or accuse them of disagreeing with Scripture, this has the effect of deprecating their thesis and amounts to an argumentum ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy. There are different legitimate interpretations of scripture which are compatible with ChristianForums Statement of Faith.

The Word of God (scripture) or the opinions of others that disagree with Gods' Word (scripture)? You say you do not agree with me, then you say (Liturgist); "I think we can lose our salvation only if we want to lose it, not as a penalty tor failing to keep a covenant." Where have I said differently that in regards to how we can choose to lose our salvation? If I have not said anything differently then are we not in agreement? Although you have a contradiction here with the rest of your sentence. The penalty for departing the faith is indeed loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-3).

The loss of salvation from departing the faith is not a penalty; God is Love, and He said “I desire mercy and not sacrifice.” If someone departs Christianity intentionally and because they really dislike Jesus Christ, who is our Lord, God and Savior, it would be unmerciful of God to force that person to spend eternity with Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It is actually possible, by quoting individual verses out of context, to misrepresent what the Bible says; Holy Scripture must be read exegetically and not eisegetically, which is why @Hammster cited Romans 1-11 entire.

I did not quote individual verses out of context to show that a believer can depart the faith and lose their salvation (see post 92 linked and post 94 linked). How does Romans 1-11 show that we cannot lose our salvation if we choose to no longer believe and follow Gods' Word? It doesn't. If you disagree your welcome to prove your case with scripture.

So, if we assume, which we should, that someone is aware of all of scripture, while it is appropriate to, a single time, ask them how they interpret a certain passage, repeatedly stating that passage and claiming what they say proves that they disagree with the Word of God is unwarranted and as Hammster put it, in poor form. You see, when you accuse someone of disagreeing with the Word of God, which is Jesus Christ, by the way, and not Scripture (John 1:1) or accuse them of disagreeing with Scripture, this has the effect of deprecating their thesis and amounts to an argumentum ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy. There are different legitimate interpretations of scripture which are compatible with ChristianForums Statement of Faith.

Sorry I respectfully disagree with your claims here. This is repetition already answered in post 129 linked

The loss of salvation from departing the faith is not a penalty; God is Love, and He said “I desire mercy and not sacrifice.” If someone departs Christianity intentionally and because they really dislike Jesus Christ, who is our Lord, God and Savior, it would be unmerciful of God to force that person to spend eternity with Christ.

Departing the faith is something that we can all choose to do. We agree on this part do we not? I provided scripture also to show that there is indeed a penalty for this decision if we choose to leave God as shown in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-29. So let me ask you a question for clarification. Are you saying we can depart the faith and live the rest of our life in unbelief and unrepentant sin and still be saved? If not what do the scripture say will happen to the wicked who choose not to believe Gods' Word and live their lives in known unrepentant sin?

Hope this is helpful.

 

[The Liturgist]

Sorry I respectfully disagree with your claims here. This is repetition already answered in post 129 linked

That is your privilege, but please just do us a kindness and refrain from accusing us of disagreeing with God’s Word or with Scripture. It is extremely hurtful and fundamentally untrue. I believe I speak for myself, @MMXX and several other members on that point.

Now, Romans 1-11 actually does validate @Hammster ‘s opinion that we cannot lose our salvation for any violation of the Law. Indeed, Galatians makes it clear we are no longer under the Law, but that the Law was like a Custodian when we were in our minority.

 

[ozso]

Respectfully, you did this to me in another thread, the thread in CCT on whether Gentiles are required to keep the Sabbath. You accused me of disagreeing with the scriptural texts which you provided, which was not the case, and would never be the case, and I had provided my interpretation of those texts. And now I see you doing the same thing to Hammster.

Now @Hammster and I do not agree on everything, for example, we disagree on the doctrine of Cyril of Alexandria and the Council of Ephesus, (specifically, whether or not Mary is the Mother of God, and the principle of communicatio idiomatum) but neither of us has ever accused the other of disagreeing with Sacred Scripture or the Word of God, and I have enormous personal respect for @Hammster and enjoy talking with him, even if we represent different schools of thought on some issues.

This a very tiresome tactic employed by some. They get told over and over what you and Hammster have said and they just keep whipping it out.

 

[The Liturgist]

The a very tiresome tactic employed by some. They get told over and over what you've said and they just keep whipping it out.

It is extremely hurtful when people say that to me, because I love and worship the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, and regard Holy Scripture as the venerable and sacred revelation of His plan for our salvation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That is your privilege, but please just do us a kindness and refrain from accusing us of disagreeing with God’s Word or with Scripture. It is extremely hurtful and fundamentally untrue.

As posted earlier If someone provides scripture verbatim and someone provides only their own words and opinions and when asked cannot show their opinions from the scriptures who should we believe and follow? The Word of God (scripture) or the opinions of others that disagree with Gods' Word (scripture)? For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over man-made teachings and traditions that disagree with the scriptures (see Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostle 5:29; Matthew 15:2-9) I am sure Jesus hurt the feelings of the Scribes and the Pharisees on more than one occasion by sharing God's Word. That said sharing Gods' Word is not done for the sake of hurting peoples feelings but to tell the truth as it is the truth of Gods' Word that saves us *John 17:17 as we believe and follow what it says 1 John 5:2-4.

Now, Romans 1-11 actually does validate @Hammster’s opinion that we cannot lose our salvation for any violation of the Law. Indeed, Galatians makes it clear we are no longer under the Law, but that the Law was like a Custodian when we were in our minority.

Then I challenge you or @Hammster to prove this claim which I believe is a false interpretation of the scriptures and let's discuss this claim. Please show me from anywhere in Romans that it says that a believer cannot depart the faith and lose their salvation? When Hebrews teaches that we can indeed depart the faith and lose our salvation (see post 92 linked and post 94 linked)

.....................

PS. I did notice you simply avoided the questions asked of you in post # 131 linked. Was there are reason for that?

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This a very tiresome tactic employed by some. They get told over and over what you and Hammster have said and they just keep whipping it out.

Well Brian we can choose God's Word or man-made teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God that Jesus warns us about in Matthew 15:2-9. For me only God's word is true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Of course everyone can choose to believe and do what they want to. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day. Though at that time I think it will be too late for the many that were called as only the few will be chosen according to the scriptures. I pray we all might be there ready to meet Jesus when he returns.

Take Care.

 

[ozso]

It is extremely hurtful when people say that to me, because I love and worship the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, and regard Holy Scripture as the venerable and sacred revelation of His plan for our salvation.

I look at it as gaslighting.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I look at it as gaslighting.

Of course, you believe in Universalism don't you Brian? But sharing Gods' Word is not gaslighting.

 

[The Liturgist]

As posted earlier If someone provides scripture verbatim and someone provides only their own words and opinions and when asked cannot show their opinions from the scriptures who should we believe and follow? The Word of God (scripture) or the opinions of others that disagree with Gods' Word (scripture)? For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over man-made teachings and traditions that disagree with the scriptures (see Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostle 5:29; Matthew 15:2-9) I am sure Jesus hurt the feelings of the Scribes and the Pharisees on more than one occasion by sharing God's Word. That said sharing Gods' Word is not done for the sake of hurting peoples feelings but to tell the truth as it is the truth of Gods' Word that saves us *John 17:17 as we believe and follow what it says 1 John 5:2-4.

Then I challenge you or @Hammster to prove this claim which I believe is a false interpretation of the scriptures and let's discuss this claim. Please show me from anywhere in Romans that it says that a believer cannot depart the faith and lose their salvation? When Hebrews teaches that we can indeed depart the faith and lose our salvation (see post 92 linked and post 94 linked)

.....................

PS. I did notice you simply avoided the questions asked of you in post # 131 linked. Was there are reason for that?

Take Care

I disagree with @Hammster and I think I have had disagreements with @MMXX on various issues, but I would not ever accuse them of disagreeing with the Word of God or with Sacred Scripture. Indeed, they could be right, and I might be in error. For example, @Hammster could be correct in asserting that we cannot lose our salvation (I actually hope he is, because it is a terrifying prospect even with the caveats attached to it by the likes of CS Lewis and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware).

So I would really love to explore these issues with you if we can agree going forward that we won’t accuse each other of disagreeing with scripture, unless we explicitly say as much. For example, Martin Luther did explicitly say that he disagreed with the Epistle of James, he did not regard it as canonical, and he wanted to remove it, Hebrews, Jude and Revelations from the Bible as he disputed their legitimacy, as did many early church fathers. So we can do that. For example, I regard the deuterocanonical books as Sacred Scripture, books like Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith, the histories of the Maccabees, the Prayer of Manessah, Baruch, Esdras, and so on. I even regard 1 Enoch and Jubilees as inspired. Most people disagree at least on 1 Enoch and Jubilees. So, there is that exception, when we can disagree whether or not something is scripture, up to a point (if someone denied the entire Old Testament or any of the Four Gospels or certain other books as scripture it would call into question their Christianity).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I disagree with @Hammster and I think I have had disagreements with @MMXX on various issues, but I would not ever accuse them of disagreeing with the Word of God or with Sacred Scripture. Indeed, they could be right, and I might be in error. For example, @Hammster could be correct in asserting that we cannot lose our salvation (I actually hope he is, because it is a terrifying prospect even with the caveats attached to it by the likes of CS Lewis and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware). So I would really love to explore these issues with you if we can agree going forward that we won’t accuse each other of disagreeing with scripture, unless we explicitly say as much. For example, Martin Luther did explicitly say that he disagreed with the Epistle of James, he did not regard it as canonical, and he wanted to remove it, Hebrews, Jude and Revelations from the Bible as he disputed their legitimacy, as did many early church fathers. So we can do that. For example, I regard the deuterocanonical books as Sacred Scripture, books like Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith, the histories of the Maccabees, the Prayer of Manessah, Baruch, Esdras, and so on. I even regard 1 Enoch and Jubilees as inspired. Most people disagree at least on 1 Enoch and Jubilees. So, there is that exception, when we can disagree whether or not something is scripture, up to a point (if someone denied the entire Old Testament or any of the Four Gospels or certain other books as scripture it would call into question their Christianity).

Sorry I disagree with your claims here. This is repetition again already answered twice now see post # 129 linked and post # 135 linked. Let be clear here so there is no misunderstandings and you can all know me a little better. For me, He must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may know Him and love Him. I know Him and am known by Him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life for us all in the living Word who has given us His written Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. For he whom God hath sent speaks the words of God: for he gives not the Spirit by measure but many do not hear when they close their eyes to see and their ears to hear. Of course I love Gods' Word (excuse the pun). Everything provided above is God's Word without the references except in a few places. I only wish to discuss the scriptures which is the only thing I have desired to do with anyone here at CF. In fact we should not be afraid to come to the light of God's Word. As it is written in John 3:18-21 it is only in the Word of God under God's promise of guidance through His Spirit (John 16:13) that any of us can know what is true and what is not true. So even if we come to Gods' Word (the scriptures) and see that perhaps there is something that we believe that might not be true we should all praise God because he has revealed His truth to us through His Word so that any false teachings we might hold can vanish in the light of His Word and we can have a closer walk with Jesus. I hope that is what we all pray for here

God bless.