Can Salvation be lost?

[The Liturgist]

Sorry I disagree with your claims here. This is repetition again already answered twice now see post # 129 linked and post # 135 linked. Let be clear here so there is no misunderstandings and you can all know me better. For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day. For he whom God hath sent speaks the words of God: for he gives not the Spirit by measure but many do not hear when they close their eyes to see and their ears to hear. Of course I love Gods' Word (excuse the pun) and only wish to discuss the scriptures which is the only thing I have desired to do with anyone here at CF. In fact we should not be afraid to come to the light of God's Word. As it is written in John 3:18-21 it is only in the Word of God under God's promise of guidance through His Spirit (John 16:13) that any of us can know what is true and what is not true. So even if we come to Gods' Word (the scriptures) and see that perhaps there is something that we believe that might not be true we should all praise God because he has revealed His truth to us through His Word so that any false teachings we might hold can vanish in the light of His Word and we can have a closer walk with Jesus. I hope that is what we all pray for here

God bless.

So like I said, I am happy to discuss this with you if we can mutually agree to not accuse the other of disagreeing with the Word of God or with Holy Scripture. I think that’s a reasonable proposition for dialogue, particularly on a complex issue like whether or not salvation can be forfeit, where there exist multiple viewpoints which have a scriptural exegesis in their defense.

 

[ozso]

I disagree with @Hammster and I think I have had disagreements with @MMXX on various issues, but I would not ever accuse them of disagreeing with the Word of God or with Sacred Scripture. Indeed, they could be right, and I might be in error. For example, @Hammster could be correct in asserting that we cannot lose our salvation (I actually hope he is, because it is a terrifying prospect even with the caveats attached to it by the likes of CS Lewis and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware).

So I would really love to explore these issues with you if we can agree going forward that we won’t accuse each other of disagreeing with scripture, unless we explicitly say as much. For example, Martin Luther did explicitly say that he disagreed with the Epistle of James, he did not regard it as canonical, and he wanted to remove it, Hebrews, Jude and Revelations from the Bible as he disputed their legitimacy, as did many early church fathers. So we can do that. For example, I regard the deuterocanonical books as Sacred Scripture, books like Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith, the histories of the Maccabees, the Prayer of Manessah, Baruch, Esdras, and so on. I even regard 1 Enoch and Jubilees as inspired. Most people disagree at least on 1 Enoch and Jubilees. So, there is that exception, when we can disagree whether or not something is scripture, up to a point (if someone denied the entire Old Testament or any of the Four Gospels or certain other books as scripture it would call into question their Christianity).

I'm a bit on Luther's side regarding Revelation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So like I said, I am happy to discuss this with you if we can mutually agree to not accuse the other of disagreeing with the Word of God or with Holy Scripture. I think that’s a reasonable proposition for dialogue, particularly on a complex issue like whether or not salvation can be forfeit, where there exist multiple viewpoints which have a scriptural exegesis in their defense.

Well this is new ground let's talk scripture then. What is it you wish to discuss in regards to losing ones salvation? I do not believe there are multiple viewpoints that have scriptural exegesis in their defense to be honest with you once those claims are examined in detail and context is added back into the discussion.

 

[ozso]

So like I said, I am happy to discuss this with you if we can mutually agree to not accuse the other of disagreeing with the Word of God or with Holy Scripture. I think that’s a reasonable proposition for dialogue, particularly on a complex issue like whether or not salvation can be forfeit, where there exist multiple viewpoints which have a scriptural exegesis in their defense.

It's difficult to have a smooth exchange with someone when they're treating the conversation like a game of chess.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It's difficult to have a smooth exchange with someone when they're treating the conversation like a game of chess.

Lets not do that then Brian. Lets all prayerfully make the scriptures our guide and let God's Word speak instead of ours.

 

[ozso]

Perhaps the age-old question of "can we lose our salvation?", should be reworded as "can we undo our salvation?"

 

[The Liturgist]

Perhaps the age-old question of "can we lose our salvation?", should be reworded as "can we undo our salvation?"

Indeed, this is actually a good starting point @LoveGodsWord , because my view is that I agree with @Hammster that we cannot lose our salvation based on Romans 1-11, and Galatians, from violating the Law, the Covenant with Israel, but we can undo our salvation and wreck it as it were by choosing to follow a different belief system, or by preaching a false Gospel, based on Galatians 1:8.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Indeed, this is actually a good starting point @LoveGodsWord , because my view is that I agree with @Hammster that we cannot lose our salvation based on Romans 1-11, and Galatians, from violating the Law, the Covenant with Israel, but we can undo our salvation and wreck it as it were by choosing to follow a different belief system, or by preaching a false Gospel, based on Galatians 1:8.

For that to be true I believe you would need to show that we can have salvation in unbelief and sin which is defined in the scriptures as not believing and following Gods' Word and breaking Gods' commandments *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 14:23. According to the scriptures the wicked are described as those who live their lives in sin and unbelief and it is these who receive Gods' judgements *Hebrews 3:8-19; Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39; Matthew 7:21-23.

This is what the scriptures teach about the wicked who are all those who live in unbelief and sin...

WICKED SHALL BE DESTROYED
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him, but all the wicked He shall destroy
Psalm 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land, that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord
Psalms 37:9-11 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait on the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Proverbs 14:11, The house of the wicked shall be destroyed: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish.
Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off
Psalm 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish, it is that they shall be destroyed forever
Psalms 94:23 He has brought back their wickedness upon them And will destroy them in their evil
The Lord our God will destroy them.
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed; but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright, but destruction shall be the workers of iniquity.
Hosea 7:13 Woe to them, for they have strayed from Me! Destruction is theirs, for they have rebelled against Me! I would redeem them, but they speak lies against Me
Philippians 1:28 in no way alarmed by your opponents—which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too, from God.
Philippians 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things
2 Peter 2:3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed
2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Jude 1:10 But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

THEY SHALL PERISH
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away
Psalms 1:4 The wicked are not so,But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
Palms 1:6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.
Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish
Luke 13:3 Nay, but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth that they might be saved

THE WICKED SHALL BE BURNT UP
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in His hand, and he will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest, I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them. But gather the wheat into my barn
Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Malachi 4:1,3 For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble and th day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts. It shall leave them neither root nor branch...And ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat. The earth also and the works therein shall be burnt up

THE WICKED SHALL BE CONSUMED
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs. They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away
Psalms 104:35a Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth and let the wicked be no more

THE WICKED SHALL BE DEVOURED
Psalm 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on th ebreadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indigination, which shall devour the adversaries

THE WICKED SHALL BE CUT OFF FROM THE EARTH
Psalms 37:2,9,22,28,34,38 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb...For evildoers shall be cut off, but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth...For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off...For the Lord loveth judgment and forsaketh not his saints; the are preserved for ever. But the seed of the wicked shall be cut off...Wait on the Lord and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land; when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it...But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the end of the wicked shall be cut off
Isaiah 33:12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime. As thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire
Proverbs 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it

THE WICKED WILL GO INTO PERDITION AND UTTER RUIN
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and periditon of ungodly men

THE WICKED ARE COMPARED TO COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS TO BE BURNED
Matthew 3:12. Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaffwith unquenchable fire.
Nahum 1:9-10 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
Matthew 13:40. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
John 15:6. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

THE WICKED SHALL DIE
Ezekiel 18:4-9, 20 [4], Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
John 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 8:13 For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
Proverbs 15:10 Correction is grievous to him that forsakes the way: and he that hates reproof shall die.
Proverbs 19:16 He that keeps the commandment keeps his own soul; but he that despises his ways shall die.
Ezekiel 3:18-20 When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand. Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul. Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand.
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All his righteousness that he has done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die.
Ezekiel 18:28 Because he considers, and turns away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby you have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Ezeliel 33:8-9 When I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die; if you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand. Nevertheless, if you warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
Ezekiel 33:11, 13, 14, 15, 18 Say to them, As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn you, turn you from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?

THE WICKED SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie.
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, jealousies, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Contentions, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous that is, an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death

................

A lot of scripture here that show what happens when we do choose to live in a life of unbelief and sin. There is no scriptures in Romans 1 to Romans 11 or in Galatians anywhere that I am aware of that says we can live in unbelief and known unrepentant sin once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and still be saved without repentance and Gods' forgiveness.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Perhaps the age-old question of "can we lose our salvation?", should be reworded as "can we undo our salvation?"

No one is arguing that if we are "in Christ", that is, if we believe and follow Gods' Word (present tense) we can lose our salvation. What we are talking about is if we choose to depart the faith into unbelief and sin (outside of Christ) we can lose salvation. According to the scriptures and as you have pointed out here God does not leave us or forsakes us but we can choose to leave Him and forsake him and as a result if we forsake God we reject God's free gift of salvation by choosing unbelief and sin over believing and following what Gods Word says. As there is only salvation in Gods' Word according to the scriptures and Gods' salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says. There is no other way we can be saved according to the scriptures.

God bless

 

[Hammster]

Then I challenge you or @Hammster to prove this claim which I believe is a false interpretation of the scriptures and let's discuss this claim. Please show me from anywhere in Romans that it says that a believer cannot depart the faith and lose their salvation?

You have to read the whole thing together (I can’t post the whole 11 chapters).If you disagree that it says that salvation is secure, then you disagree with God’s word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have to read the whole thing together (I can’t post the whole 11 chapters).If you disagree that it says that salvation is secure, then you disagree with God’s word.

Sorry but Genesis to Revelation disagrees with you here. Where is the scripture that says we can depart the faith, reject Gods' Word and live in known unrepentant sin and unbelief and still be saved? - There is none.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry but Genesis to Revelation disagrees with you here.

I’m sorry that you disagree with God’s word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I’m sorry that you disagree with God’s word.

I do not disagree with Gods Word which is why I have provided it. I disagree with your words that are not Gods' Word and have shown why I disagree from the scriptures. Of course you are free to believe as you wish as that is between you and God to work through. As posted earlier there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day according to the scriptures.

 

[Hammster]

I do not disagree with Gods Word which is why I have provided it. I disagree with your words that are not Gods' Word and have shown why I disagree from the scriptures. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. As posted earlier there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed according to the scriptures.

I’ve provided God’s word on the subject (or more specifically, I’ve referenced a part that’s relevant to the discussion). Paul makes a strong argument for the security of the believer. So you aren’t disagreeing with me, but with one of the inspired writers of scripture.

 

[ozso]

I don't always agree with John MacArthur. But I think he summed up his view pretty compellingly in a little over a minute here:

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Salvation can be lost in that one believes that they have a life-saving, life-changing faith in Christ but continue to willfully, knowingly, sin without feeling any conviction or trying to repent, or even walk away from Christ altogether. The OSAS crowd will say they were never actually saved to begin with, and there may be some truth to that. God knows who His sheep are. However, I would be hard-pressed to say to anyone that they are not or never were saved if they declare, or have ever declared, with their mouth that Jesus is Lord. That is what judgment is and that is not our place. There are plenty of people out there who will say that they used to believe but no longer do. It is not our place to answer if they ever actually believed but to show them that they can believe again if they truly want to. That is the job that Christ gave us in the Great Commission. Christ's job is to answer that question of if they are, or have ever been, saved or not.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I’ve provided God’s word on the subject (or more specifically, I’ve referenced a part that’s relevant to the discussion). Paul makes a strong argument for the security of the believer. So you aren’t disagreeing with me, but with one of the inspired writers of scripture.

All you have said is Romans 1 to Romans 11 without stating what it is in these chapters that says we can depart the faith and be saved in known unrepentant sin and unbelief and still be saved. I asked you to show me where it says we can be saved in known unrepentant sin and unbelief without repentance and Gods' forgiveness and still be saved? Yet all I hear is silence except it is somewhere in Romans 1 to Romans 11. If you have the truth of God's Word then you would have provided it by now don't you think? You have already been provided scripture in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 and another 88+ scripture in post # 148 linked, that shows that those in known unrepentant sin and unbelief are the wicked who are lost in God's eyes. So what do you have to share from God's Word that is in contradiction with all the scripture that has been provided here that is in disagreement with you?

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I don't always agree with John MacArthur. But I think he summed up his view pretty compellingly in a little over a minute here:

The only way that video is true according to the scriptures already provided is if we do not choose to depart the faith and continue in the faith believing and following God's Word. As shown through the scriptures God will never leave us or forsake us. That is not the problem. We can at any time choose to leave and forsake God. According to the scriptures it is written; "Exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end." Hebrews 3:13-14

 

[Hammster]

All you have said is Romans 1 to Romans 11 without stating what it is in these chapters that says we can be saved in known unrepentant sin and unbelief and still be saved. I asked you to show me where it says we can be saved in known unrepentant sin and unbelief without repentance and Gods' forgiveness and still be saved? Yet all I hear is silence except it is somewhere in Romans 1 to Romans 11. If you have the truth of God's Word then you would have provided it by now don't you think? You have already been provided scripture in Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-39 and another 88+ scripture in post # 148 linked, that shows that those in known unrepentant sin and unbelief are the wicked who are lost in God's eyes. So what do you have to share from God's Word that is in contradiction with all the scripture that has been provided here that is in disagreement with you?

Take Care.

I’ve stated what they say. But to be clearer, Paul makes a solid argument about how salvation comes to man, and that it’s not about man, but God. So if you disagree, you are disagreeing with God’s very words. You are free to do so, obviously.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I’ve provided God’s word on the subject (or more specifically, I’ve referenced a part that’s relevant to the discussion). Paul makes a strong argument for the security of the believer. So you aren’t disagreeing with me, but with one of the inspired writers of scripture.

Actually I have not seen anything from the scripture from you that says that we can depart the faith and still be saved in sin and unbelief without repentance and confession of sin. Perhaps I missed it. Would you like to post specifically where the scriptures say this please?