Can Salvation be lost?

The Liturgist said:

There is so much erroneous and unscriptural doctrine in this thread, only @ViaCrucis seems to have a grasp on this topic, which is a shame, because in the past when debates on OSAS have occurred, we have seen a much more vigorous response from traditional Christians who base their faith on the Bible and the deposit of faith handed down from the Apostles.

So, contrary to those who have cited St. Paul the Apostle as the basis for OSAS, that is in fact eisegesis, because the same Apostle warned repeatedly about the dangers of falling away:

1 Corinthians 9:27 (RSV): “I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”

1 Corinthians 10:12: “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.”

Galatians 5:1: “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.”

Galatians 5:4: “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.”

Philippians 3:8-14: “Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”

1 Timothy 4:1: “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.”

The only actual doctrinal question is whether or not the Protestant concept of Conditional Security is valid. This idea we see in Luther, Melancthon, and Wesley. I can’t answer that question, but I also don’t think it to be particularly important, since the effect of Conditional Security and belief in the possibility of Apostasy, is the same.

Since the ways of God are inscrutable, and His mercy is arbitrary, for our Lord declares “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy,” I think it is always presumptuous for us to assume our own salvation.

Indeed, the early church did not, and this is why Prayer for the Dead is endorsed by the early church fathers, the Book of Tobit, which is accepted by several traditional Protestant churches as canonical and is read in the church, for example, in the Anglican tradition, and CS Lewis would all encourage us to do what our Eastern Orthodox brethren such as @HTacianas , @prodromos and @GreekOrthodox do, as well as our Oriental Orthodox brethren such as @dzheremi @Pavel Mosko and others, and our Assyrian brethren, and our high church Anglican brethren, and our Roman Catholic brethren (who contrary to popular belief, profess correct doctrine in almost all cases; I disagree with them only insofar as I believe that all bishops should be equal, that in the antiquity the Bishop of Rome is clearly Primus Inter Pares, and not Primus Sine Paribus, and the reason for objecting to Papal Supremacy is the damage reckless Popes have done in the past, and a particularly reckless Pope is doing at present, but I digress. The important thing is that intercessionary prayer for the dead is important and efficacious; I don’t believe in Purgatory but rather in the Orthodox view that prayer for the dead can improve the soteriological outcome of the subject of the prayer, by asking God to have mercy, for example, on a dear friend of mine who was baptized as a Catholic but died as a Freemason and a Comparative Religionist.

So yes, like CS Lewis, I am going to pray for these people.

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ViaCrucis said:

You seem to have misunderstood my position, my apologies if my position wasn't clear in my post.

I don't believe in "once saved always saved", at least not in the Calvinistic sense. It is absolutely possible for Christians to fall away, that's why Scripture warns us of the danger of falling away.

-CryptoLutheran

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Tolworth John said:

May I suggest that you talk to your minister about his teaching methods as he has not taught you basic Christianity.
you appear ignorant of John 3:16+18, of Eph 2:8+9, Rom8:29 etc etc etc

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Davy said:

Yes, Hebrews 6 about those who turn away from Christ after they had been once enlightened, and tasted of the heavenly gift for proof of the world to come.

Heb 6:4-9
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
KJV


2 Thessalonians 2 is a specific warning about those who fall away to the coming "man of sin" (i.e., the coming pseudo-Christ that is to proclaim himself as God in Jerusalem for the end of this present world). Paul called that event of deception by those who fall away to that false one as "strong delusion". It's because they will worship the man of sin in place of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Any brother/sister believer on my Lord Jesus Christ that is not aware of that coming danger of deception to the pseudo-Christos that Jesus warned us of, is in DANGER by not being aware of that coming event at the end of this world. This is why I keep bringing the matter up on forums like these, trying to get brethren in Christ to wake up to Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about that event at the end.

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Oscarr said:

The invitation to trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross is open to all. "God so loved the world that He sent His Son, so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but that all may come to repentance".
(John 3:16). But not all will repent of their sin and believe the Gospel. The Scripture also says, "To those who receive Christ, God gives them the right to be called the children of God." Unbelievers who refuse to repent and believe the Gospel love their sin more than Christ, and therefore refuse the invitation.

Praying the sinner's prayer has sent more people to hell than anything else. This is because unbelievers don't get saved by praying a prayer at the front of a church. Anyone can pray, "I believe that Christ died for me and I repent of my sins" and yet not be saved. It is not promising to repent, it is actually doing it, and actively believing the Gospel by turning away from the works of the flesh and showing the fruit of repentance. This is not a works-based salvation. It is our faith by actively believing the Gospel and seeking God for the indwelling Holy Spirit to fully convert us to Christ, causing the transformation of heart to hate sin and love righteousness. Many who prayed the sinner's prayer but did not go on to show the fruit of righteousness through a transformed life will wake up in Hell; because their profession of Christ was just talk - lip service. That's what James says, "If you say you have faith, let's see your faith expressed in what you do. If you can't, then your faith is dead."

In my younger days, I was involved an evangelistic outreach group who went to holiday destinations and preached the Gospel. We received hundreds of decision cards, but less than 2% were found to be regular church members six months later. Those were the ones who meant business with God and went on to be transformed by the Holy Spirit. The other 98%, in spite of praying the sinner's prayer and signing a decision card, did nothing more, carried on with their normal life, still on the broad road to Hell. For years I didn't know why our efforts to get souls saved were so ineffective. Now I know. We didn't preach the right Gospel to them. We told them that if they prayed a sinner's prayer and sign the card they would be saved. That was a lie, and it effectively sent that 98% to Hell thinking they were saved. That was nearly 50 years ago, so I wonder how many of those who signed the decision cards have now woken up in Hell crying out, "I shouldn't be here! I prayed the prayer, and signed the card!" I can hear the Lord saying, "Ah...but you didn't go on to actually repent of your sins and seek for full conversion by the Holy Spirit".

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.Jeremiah. said:

Thanks for your great response.

You are absolutely correct.

My way of speaking doesn’t portray my complete understanding.

I will try to elaborate:
If you are like me, which I suspect, you would find the act of “sinning” to be repulsive. Although, we will surely continue to sin, while on this earth, we absolutely DO NOT desire it. It happens. We’re not perfect.
But we don’t WANT it.

We will make EVERY effort to turn away from it, and when it happens we will mourn it along with the Lord.

So, I visualize it would take a serious effort to TRY TO sin, purposely. That’s what I meant. Although I sin, I don’t purposely try to sin.

To me, there is a big difference.

Those who purposely sin, and claim that “grace” covers them, are not of us, even though they “say” they are.

I think Paul describes what I see here, pretty well in Romans 7:15-20

Thanks again for stimulating my brain.

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