Can Salvation be lost?

[spiritfilledjm]

For me it starts with who wrote it. From what I understand the early church ascribes it to John the Apostle. However scholars over the years have concluded the the style of writing and usage of Greek, doesn't match 1 John.

I believe that John's authorship comes from Iraeneus who was discipled by Polycarp, who was discipled by John himself who attested that he did write the books attributed to him.

 

[Andrewn]

For me it starts with who wrote it. From what I understand the early church ascribes it to John the Apostle. However scholars over the years have concluded the the style of writing and usage of Greek, doesn't match 1 John.

Even Eusebius of Caesarea, writing in the early 4th century said that the style is not that of John the Evangelist.

 

[The Liturgist]

The problem is that your method is to pull verses out of context (see post 148). So to make a fair argument, I’m referencing all of Romans and telling you in broad terms what is said. That way there can be no accusations towards me about context. I could do the same with Galatians. And since it’s God’s word, you aren’t disagreeing with me, but with Him.

I already did quote all of Galatians, since it does of course have the effect of refuting the idea that we can lose our salvation for violations of the Law.

 

[The Liturgist]

For me it starts with who wrote it. From what I understand the early church ascribes it to John the Apostle. However scholars over the years have concluded the the style of writing and usage of Greek, doesn't match 1 John.

Some scholars - it is not a universal opinion. Also, if we consider that John, as a native Aramaic speaker, may have relied upon Koine Greek speaking interpreter-scribes, whose function was equivalent to the “Ghost Writer” of today, that can help.

 

[ozso]

Some scholars - it is not a universal opinion. Also, if we consider that John, as a native Aramaic speaker, may have relied upon Koine Greek speaking interpreter-scribes, whose function was equivalent to the “Ghost Writer” of today, that can help.

Well as you know what ultimately matters in considering authenticity is whether or not I like it.

 

[The Liturgist]

Recent discussions (in other threads) are making me agree with this. I've always understood Revelation with a mostly Idealist interpretation. People nowadays are turning it into literal fortune telling of the future. It's like a different religion altogether that presents Jesus and the saints like blood-thirsty monsters and disregards the rest of the NT.

I myself was nearly turned off from the Apocalypse of St. John by modern misuse of it, but then I realized this misuse is due to people who, like young earth creationists, obsess over it due to its position at the end of the Bible, just as Genesis is at the beginning. Actually since the configuration of books in the Bible is arbitrary, what historically mattered is how the books were read in church. The only liturgical use of Revelation is in the Coptic Orthodox Church, where it is read, not sung, on the afternoon of Holy Saturday, before the Paschal Eucharist. Likewise, on Mount Athos, it is read in the monasteries in a non-liturgical context at the same time.

We can’t let heterodox abuse of scripture influence our opinion of it.

 

[The Liturgist]

Even Eusebius of Caesarea, writing in the early 4th century said that the style is not that of John the Evangelist.

Well, he was pushing his own proposed canon of NT works, which differed from the one we ultimately adopted, developed by St. Athanasius the Great. At the Council of Nicea, St. Athanasius, as the protodeacon of St. Alexander of Alexandria, helped secure the doctrine of the Incarnation against Arianism, and Eusebius of Caesarea protested the actions of the council, saying he signed the conciliar decree “with his hand, but not his heart.”

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe that John's authorship comes from Iraeneus who was discipled by Polycarp, who was discipled by John himself who attested that he did write the books attributed to him.

Indeed so.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I’m agreeing with Paul who makes a compelling argument in all of Romans that those who are saved are secure. That’s God’s word. Hopefully you won’t disagree that Romans is rightfully in the canon.

And what would those arguments be. You have not provided any to show that we can turn away from God and live in a life of known unrepentant sin and not lose our salvation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So you are disagreeing with God’s word. Okay.

Not at all. As posted earlier I am disagreeing with your words that are not Gods Word. I have asked you many times now where is the scriptures that say we can turn away from God and continue in known unrepentant sin and still be saved? All you have said is Romans 1 to Romans 11 without stating what it is in these chapters that says we can be saved in known unrepentant sin and unbelief and still be saved. I asked you to show me where it says we can be saved in known unrepentant sin and unbelief without repentance and Gods' forgiveness and still be saved? Yet all I hear is silence except it is somewhere in Romans 1 to Romans 11. If you have the truth of God's Word then you would have provided it by now don't you think? You have already been provided scripture in Hebrews 6:4-8; (see post 93 linked) Hebrews 10:26-39 (post 94 linked) and another 88+ scripture in post # 148 linked, that shows that those in known unrepentant sin and unbelief are the wicked who are lost in God's eyes. So what do you have to share from God's Word that is in contradiction with all the scripture that has been provided here that is in disagreement with you?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH AND CONTINUE IN A LIFE OF UNREPENTANT SIN AND UNBELIEF? - NO!

Why is it that people here claim we can depart from God and live in a life of known unrepentant sin and still be saved and not be lost. This claim is the opposite of what the bible teaches as shown here, here and here. To be honest I do not even know why people are still discussing this topic when it is clearly against what the scriptures teach and why some are patting each other on the back supporting posts that are clearly not supported by the scriptures. This one is not even a close call in my view when compared to what scripture says. Anyhow, of course everyone is free to believe as they wish as we all must answer to God alone. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day.

Take Care

 

[The Liturgist]

CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH AND CONTINUE IN A LIFE OF UNREPENTANT SIN AND UNBELIEF? - NO!

Why is it that people here claim we can depart from God and live in a life of known unrepentant sin and still be saved and not be lost. This claim is the opposite of what the bible teaches as shown here, here and here. To be honest I do not even know why people are still discussing this topic when it is clearly against what the scriptures teach and why some are patting each other on the back supporting posts that are clearly not supported by the scriptures. This one is not even a close call in my view when compared to what scripture says. Anyhow, of course everyone is free to believe as they wish as we all must answer to God alone. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day.

Take Care

While I do not agree with the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, it is scripturally supportable, because one can effectively argue that such persons were not among the Elect and their belief was not genuine.

There is another issue, which is what the definition of known unrepentant sin is. Christians certainly are not damned if they fail to keep the Mosaic Law, because as Galatians makes clear, we are no longer under the Law.

Finally, why are you mentioning judgement day?

 

[Hammster]

And what would those arguments be. You have not provided any to show that we can turn away from God and live in a life of known unrepentant sin and not lose our salvation.

My arguments are what Paul wrote in Romans. I’d hate to add my own words to scripture.

you said “I am disagreeing with your words that are not Gods Word.” But now you want my words. You need to make up your mind.

 

[The Liturgist]

My arguments are what Paul wrote in Romans. I’d hate to add my own words to scripture.

Indeed, and my arguments are what Paul wrote in Galatians. So neither of us have disagreed with Scripture, and neither of us deserves to have our faith questioned along with threatening mention of Judgement Day.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

My arguments are what Paul wrote in Romans. I’d hate to add my own words to scripture. you said “I am disagreeing with your words that are not Gods Word.” But now you want my words. You need to make up your mind.

I am indeed amused by this. You say that your arguments are what Paul writes in Romans without stating what Paul writes in Romans that shows that we can depart the faith and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and still be saved? Which means you have not provided any scripture that supports your view point. What is more amazing I think is those who are rating your posts and agreeing with you without you showing any scripture that proves these claims, while over 100 + scriptures (here, here and here) have been provided showing that if we choose to depart the faith to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin we will lose our salvation.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

While I do not agree with the Doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, it is scripturally supportable, because one can effectively argue that such persons were not among the Elect and their belief was not genuine.

There is another issue, which is what the definition of known unrepentant sin is. Christians certainly are not damned if they fail to keep the Mosaic Law, because as Galatians makes clear, we are no longer under the Law.

Finally, why are you mentioning judgement day?

It is not an argument that is supportable in my view from the scriptures as shown in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 and demonstrated (here; here) showing that believers can indeed depart the faith. Check out the linked posts here; here

 

[The Liturgist]

I am quite amused by this. You say that your arguments are what Paul writes in Romans without stating what Paul writes in Romans showing that we can depart the faith and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and still be saved? Which means you have not provided any scripture that supports your view point. What is more amazing I think is those who are rating your posts and agreeing with you without you showing any scripture that proves these claims, while over 100 + scriptures (here, here and here) have been provided showing that if we choose to depart the faith to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin we will lose our salvation.

He did provide Scripture. Chapters 1-11 of Romans. They must be read entirely. I think Hammster’s views are most in alignment with the King James Study Bible, which is available on scribd.

 

[The Liturgist]

It is not an argument that is supportable in my view from the scriptures as shown in Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 and demonstrated (here; here) showing that true believers can indeed depart the faith.

Why did you mention judgement day though?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

He did provide Scripture. Chapters 1-11 of Romans. They must be read entirely. I think Hammster’s views are most in alignment with the King James Study Bible, which is available on scribd.

No, lets be honest. @Hammster said Romans 1 to Romans 11 or Galatians without showing any scripture in Romans 1 to Romans 11 that supports the claim that we can depart the faith and live a life in known unrepentant sin and still be saved, while over 100 + scriptures (here, here and here) have been provided showing that if we choose to depart the faith to continue in a life of known unrepentant sin we will lose our salvation. Show me where in Romans 1 to Romans 11 it says anywhere we can depart the faith and live in a life of known unrepentant sin and still be saved? There is no scripture anywhere in the bible that supports this view. If you believe I am wrong here correct me and provide the scriptures that say we can depart the faith and continue to live in known unrepentant sin and still be saved? - There is none.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why did you mention judgement day though?

Sorry not sure what your asking here.