Hi, Sawdust. You knew I was going to reply; I hope you accept my reply is in a good spirit, and not just being argumentative with you. I respect you, and consider you both "saved sister", and intelligent.
No I don't see you as being argumentative but rather highly passionate about what you believe. I think it is why I like you Ben because it seems to me we both have this same quality in our personality. Of course, passion alone doesn't necessarily make one right. (and I say that for my benefit as much as yours) Passion can make one as deeply blind as much as it can give one great insight.
I don't see us as "goats"; the goats, are those who pursue sin rather than beloning to God through Jesus.
I think you may have misunderstood something here. I wasn't trying to say you see the posters who disagree with you in this thread as goats. I understand the type of person (at least I think I do) that you are alluding to. But herein lies a problem. The majority of verses that you refer to are actually people pursuing righteousness, not sin. It is just that in their pursuit they have gotten off on the wrong track. My pastor puts it this way.
A wrong thing done in a wrong way is wrong.
A wrong thing done in a right way is wrong.
A right thing done in a wrong way is wrong.
A right thing done in a right way is right.
A good many of the people in scripture who are warned about "refusing God" or "fallen from grace" etc are people who are looking to do the right thing but they are trying to do it in the wrong way.
To me, saying "I will vomit you from My mouth", is God saying "you don't belong".
Yes. He is saying "you don't belong". But He is not saying "you don't belong in the Kingdom" He is saying "you don't belong in close and intimate communion with me.". These Laodicean brothers and sisters have proven they cannot be trusted with the Word they have been given, therefore Christ is not going to trust them with more. If they don't heed His word, instead of sitting on His throne with Him, they will be sitting on the floor in a very unceremonious manner (spat out His mouth), but they are still a citizen of the Kingdom.
By saying "buy guld/salve/clothes", he's saying "turn back to Me". Can't mean anything else.
But as I tried to explain before Ben, if these people are
not saved why is Christ not giving them the Gospel so they might be saved? Why is He instructing them in matters that pertain to a child of God? Things that only a child of God can do? You have to
enter the shop before you can make a purchase. Unbelievers haven't gone inside. They can't make a "purchase" from Christ. They don't even believe in Him as being Saviour. Unbelievers are not in a relationship with God, good or bad, to even begin making transactions with Him.
Notice that by saying "If any man hears My voice and OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in and sup with him, and he with me." --- he is saying "your door is closed."
Yes,
your door being the operative here. In other words if you won't walk in
close fellowship with me then I can't walk in
close fellowship with you. "You" have shut me out but I am faithful even if you are not and I'm still standing here waiting for you.
I hope you can explain to me why you see "Spew-from-My-mouth", as "still-belonging".
Well I did try. Whether you will understand or not ... ??? It seems to me Ben you don't distinguish between "positional truth" and "experiential truth". Putting that another way.
If Christ was Fort Knox? Then when we believe, it is like the Father takes us and puts us in Fort Knox and declares "all this is yours". Positionally it is ours, it remains so forever, experientially it is Christ's. If we are to make our position also our experience then Christ's life must be transferred to us and become a part of us. This can only happen as we walk by means of the Spirit contolling our soul and relying upon the word (faith). But whether we do that or not we still remain children of God. Our position in Christ remains secure from the moment we believe in Him. What is not guaranteed is His position in us, that is, how much of His word dwells in us. The bare facts that Christ died for us? Or will we take in the full counsel of God, rightly dividing His word?
Do you see a subject change between "those who should be mature (but aren't)", and "those who are falling away and regard Jesus with contempt"? I don't; he's saying simply, "Grow up, and don't stay always studying repentance; 'cause those who WERE saved but are fall-ING away, they're unable to be restored to repentance WHILE they regard Jesus with such casual disdain."
No I don't see a subject change. Yes he is saying "grow up" because those who are saved and growing and stop growing before they reach maturity (falling away) remain as children. And just like children who do not fully appreciate their toys and the cost of them to their parents, so too are you (those in the verses), if you remain in this childish thinking. All you do is trash the gifts you have been given.
The context of the passage is growth. They are falling away from growing up not from their position of being a son.
Nice --- you're reflecting what Gamaliel said (Acts5:33); but each of us must be wary that what we're teaching
really is of God.
Actually I'm hoping that's a typo and you meant verse 39 and not 33 otherwise I might have to think you want me dead for what I have said.
It's a question of sequence. Do we humble ourselves BECAUSE God has favored us (with sovereign regeneration)? Or does God RECEIVE those who HUMBLE themselves before Him? I perceive the latter.
Well I'm not really sure what you are getting at. Generally speaking, humility must be enforced at first. Take any 3yo for a week and you soon realise humility is not a natural strong point.
Hopefully though most of us learn quickly enough to recognise the value of humility and incorporate it into our lives.
(Tell that to my cat; she's proven that she has more than one life...)
Gladly. Will she listen to me?
What you're missing, is that he who refuses God NOW, regardless of that "one occasion of believing", is identical in spirit (and condemnation) as he who has NEVER believed.
Almost. .... "is identical
in appearance. But they are not the same as an unbeliever nor can they ever be. They are born again, adopted as a son (of God), citizens of heaven, given the title of Royal Priest, indwelt by God the Spirit, Son and the Father, sealed, are appointed an Ambassador of Christ, baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit ... they are just the differences I can think of off the top of my head. None of those things can be seen, touched, smelt, heard or tasted but they occur the moment we believe in Christ and they are not undone. The Lord is no fool He knows who believes in Him and who doesn't. They might fool the rest of us but not God.
The essence of "saved", is "Christ IN US". A belief that does not DWELL in Christ and WALK with the Spirit,[/b] is not a belief at all.
I don't know what to say here Ben. You seem to want people to be constantly sinning to prove they are not saved or you want them to be constantly perfect to prove they are. There is a time coming when this will be so. The former will be in the lake of fire and the latter will be in the Kingdom of God. But until that day comes we cannot always see who is on what side of the fence because right now the Lord allows the two to live together and we only see as in a mirror dimly. I'm confident the Lord can sort the wheat from the chaff without my input on telling people how they must live their lives.
Chapter and verse? I haven't studied that; but Jesus plainly said "no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will know them by their fruit.
Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighborsto David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." 1Sam.28:16-19
peace