Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

[GodLovesCats]

In my opinion it's an extremely complicated, sensitive issue, and I am uncomfortable with the rhetoric on both sides. I think "slaughtering unborn children out of convenience" is not a fair characterization any more than suggesting the fetus is a parasite.

To be honest, I don't have much faith in the ability of our current polarized government to fairly legislate such a complex issue. I think most ordinary pro-life folk sincerely want to protect human lives, but I am pretty cynical about politicians and their motives. The issue of abortion has become a political weapon in the United States.

Unfortunately, most people who want to ban abortions seem to have absolutely no concern for the mother at all if her contraception failed. Those women are being accused of "slaughtering unborn children" and being called "baby killers" by people who never knew them.

I also cringe at the parasite comparison, but it is true that the fetus feeds off the adult's blood to live. The umbilical cord has two arteries (for the mother's blood) and one vein, Where it goes wrong is the fact that a parasite by definition is a different animal species.

 

[Whyayeman]

Quoting scripture is appealing to an authority and does not advance the case for anybody, least of all people like me who do not accept the authority of such writings.

All such writings are subject to interpretation, as here. (Jeremiah, not 'Jesus himself'.)

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

It still does not in any way give you the right to call girls and women who choose abortion "murderers" or make the unborn life any more important than the woman herself.

I am not aware of many people wanting to imprison women for having an abortion. I am, however, aware of people wanting to imprison the doctors for performing abortions, because the doctors know very well what they are doing. When someone says "abortion is murder" it doesn't mean the woman is a murderer. But the doctor is. Immoral killing is called murder in the Bible.

I am also not aware of many people making the life of the unborn child more important than the life of the mother. Almost everyone agrees that if the life of the mother is in danger, abortions should be permitted. However, only 12% of abortions are for medical reasons (1% because the mother's life is in danger). If the mother's argument is "I want to go on holidays" or "I want to finish my master" then the life of the fetus is absolutely more important. You don't agree with that?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I also cringe at the parasite comparison, but it is true that the fetus feeds off the adult's blood to live. The umbilical cord has two arteries (for the mother's blood) and one vein, Where it goes wrong is the fact that a parasite by definition is a different animal species.

A parasite by definition harms and exploits its host. A fetus does neither of that. The womb's only and intended purpose is to nurture the fetus. A parasite is a foreign object in a place it doesn't belong. The fetus does belong in the womb. That is the place he is supposed to be.

Same reason why not all bacteria are parasites, because even though they are a different species they are not all harming and exploiting the host.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I am not aware of many people wanting to imprison women for having an abortion. I am, however, aware of people wanting to imprison the doctors for performing abortions, because the doctors know very well what they are doing. When someone says "abortion is murder" it doesn't mean the woman is a murderer. But the doctor is. Immoral killing is called murder in the Bible.

America is not a theocracy. The definition of murder in the Bible constitutionally cannot be applied. I already explained this many times.

So you are not aware of any laws that would put the mother is prison for having an abortion? I am sure both the Texas and Ohio abortion laws do that.

I am also not aware of many people making the life of the unborn child more important than the life of the mother. Almost everyone agrees that if the life of the mother is in danger, abortions should be permitted. However, only 12% of abortions are for medical reasons (1% because the mother's life is in danger). If the mother's argument is "I want to go on holidays" or "I want to finish my master" then the life of the fetus is absolutely more important. You don't agree with that?

That is not what I mean at all. My point was the same people who want most abortions to be illegal are refusing to help pregnant girls and women get everything they need during gestation, not be treated like second-class citizens.

How many abortion opponents support universal health care and forgiving student debt? Zero. How many abortion opponents support free childcare? Zero. How many abortion opponents support tackling poverty in heavily black areas? Zero. Prove me wrong.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It is still not murder and you still have no reason or right to call her a murderer. You still do not know why she had an abortion even if it is that simple.

You are only allowed to show love, kindness,, and respect to pregnant girls and women who do not want babies, according to Jesus himself.

If it is intentionally killing human life to avoid having a child, it would appear to me to be murder. Unless you think it's not human in the womb.

Also, where is it written we must show evildoers respect for their actions at all times?

 

[Desk trauma]

I understand not wanting to debate, but throwing out there your opinion that abortion as murdering babies being "obviously a lie" is basically asking for a debate.

If we're using the legal term murder there is no debate about it being murder, it's not. No place in the US classes abortion as murder even where there are near total bans on abortion it's not classed as murder or even homicide by the law.

After decades of screaming about murder, genocide, slaughter, they get the power to change the law and loose their nerve.

 

[GodLovesCats]

If it is intentionally killing human life to avoid having a child, it would appear to me to be murder. Unless you think it's not human in the womb.

Murder has a very strict definition in the dictionary. It is not based on religious morality.

I have always said it is a human life in the womb. Abortion is not murder because it is legal.

Also, where is it written we must show evildoers respect for their actions at all times?

The Golden Rule does not differentiate between good doers and evil doers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I never want to debate abortion with people who disagree with me on the issue because it just goes around in circles, with "pro-lifers" wrongly accusing pro-choicers of murdering babies (which is obviously a lie) and pro-choicers calling pro-lifers misogynists who only care about controlling girls and women. In rape and incest cases, the latter is true, but most claims I read from both sides of the issue are incorrect unless people are just talking about Psalms 139, Job 10, and child development. I want to know if there is any way people can just agree to disagree on when abortion is only for convenience, when fetuses in the womb are viable, and how women should get rid of unwanted babies they can't take care of. There is no reason to doubt someone is a Christian just because he or she disagrees on this one issue, whatever the opinion differences are. I want to be able to trade views about a Christian issue without a fear that someone will deny my faith in God. I know everyone who reads God's Word would feel the same way, whether the issue is abortion or something else.

So instead of debating whether abortion is right or wrong and on what basis, I want to see if people are able to have a friendly discussion on the topic that does not devolve into crap such as, "You are not a Christian," or stupid name-calling.

If you don’t want to discuss if abortion is right or wrong then what do you want to discuss about it?

 

[Desk trauma]

If you don’t want to discuss if abortion is right or wrong then what do you want to discuss about it?

If we're to abide by the rules of the forum we cannot do that. It's only permissible to say that abortion is wrong we are not allowed to argue that it is right.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Quoting scripture is appealing to an authority and does not advance the case for anybody, least of all people like me who do not accept the authority of such writings.

All such writings are subject to interpretation, as here. (Jeremiah, not 'Jesus himself'.)

I know why people love to quote Jeremiah 1:5. The problem with them doing that is Jeremiah was one prophet and very special, not just another human being on the planet. We must learn how important that is when reading the verse.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Murder has a very strict definition in the dictionary. It is not based on religious morality.

I have always said it is a human life in the womb. Abortion is not murder because it is legal.

We've discussed this before. You want me to disregard my Christian position in this conversation and subordinate it a purely secular/non-Christian position. I am not willing to do this and I do not take the legal standard of Western countries which allow abortion as sacrosanct. Unless you have a good reason as a Christian for subordinating Christianity to non-Christian standards, It is still warrented to consider the action murder. Especially if the woman simply doesn't want the child for the sake of convenience.

The Golden Rule does not differentiate between good doers and evil doers.

Since when does the Golden rule demand complete respect? Jesus himself did not show complete respect or kindness to his enemies. There were times he humiliated his enemies and even got violent (in the temple). You are demanding I respect a woman who was callous enough to kill her child for the sake of convenience. No, I will not give her any kindness or respect for murdering her child.

 

[dzheremi]

If we're to abide by the rules of the forum we cannot do that. It's only permissible to say that abortion is wrong we are not allowed to argue that it is right.

Then it would appear that this conversation doesn't have much of a point. One side is required to lie about what they believe, and the other is being asked to do the same by some appeal to social niceties.

 

[GodLovesCats]

If you don’t want to discuss if abortion is right or wrong then what do you want to discuss about it?

My goal is to make people start telling the truth about what abortion is from legal and biological perspectives and show real concerns for the mother, not pretend only one of the two lives matters in a dishonest way.

 

[GodLovesCats]

We've discussed this before. You want me to disregard my Christian position in this conversation and subordinate it a purely secular/non-Christian position. I am not willing to do this and I do not take the legal standard of Western countries which allow abortion as sacrosanct. Unless you have a good reason as a Christian for subordinating Christianity to non-Christian standards, It is still warranted to consider the action murder. Especially if the woman simply doesn't want the child for the sake of convenience.

Since when does the Golden rule demand complete respect? Jesus himself did not show complete respect or kindness to his enemies. There were times he humiliated his enemies and even got violent (in the temple). You are demanding I respect a woman who was callous enough to kill her child for the sake of convenience. No, I will not give her any kindness or respect for murdering her child.

With this new forum layout I had no idea you are an Oriental Orthodox Christian in New Zealand. That explains it. Most people on the forum are Americans and my country's constitution is totally unlike yours.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Joe Biden explained the difference during his 2020 primary election campaign. He prefers no women get abortions, but as a career politician and presidential candidate, he values what the Constitution says about giving all girls and women the rights to privacy and bodily autonomy.

That is where I am at. If a woman does not need an abortion, I don't want her to get one. But like the current president, I am a patriotic American citizen who believes the government must stay out of every pregnant person's body. What happened to all the federal privacy laws?



I am just trying to discuss abortion in a friendly way. It is fine if some people think abortion is right and other people think it is wrong. What we need is a conversation that does not turn into all people making up those absolutist lies, which are told by both sides at political debates.

Politics and Christianity are two completely different perspectives. When the local laws are in opposition to God’s laws we are expected to uphold God’s laws not the local laws. Placing the US Constitution above or equal to the word of God causes numerous problems for Christians. Freedom of religion and worship are contradictory to God’s commandments because it allows the worship of false gods and even satan himself. So what the US Constitution says is completely irrelevant to Christians when it comes to rights that oppose God’s commandments.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

With this new forum layout I had no idea you are an Oriental Orthodox Christian in New Zealand. That explains it. Most people on the forum are Americans and my country's constitution is totally unlike yours.

I am Eastern Orthodox and not Oriental Orthodox. Also, what does the US constitution matter in this debate when we compare it a Christian understanding of the world? Does the US and it's laws trump and supersede Christianity? This would be the typical left leaning Christian position, but it seems to be in no way justifiable on Christian pretenses.

There have been many laws and legal codes throughout history. At one time Christians were demanded to sacrifice in the name of gods and Emperors. Christians refused because God's law was higher than human law.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Politics and Christianity are two completely different perspectives. When the local laws are in opposition to God’s laws we are expected to uphold God’s laws not the local laws. Placing the US Constitution above or equal to the word of God causes numerous problems for Christians. Freedom of religion and worship are contradictory to God’s commandments because it allows the worship of false gods and even Satan himself. So what the US Constitution says is completely irrelevant to Christians when it comes to rights that oppose God’s commandments.

That fact still does not give anyone the right to treat women like they are second-class citizens just because their contraception failed. What is your plan to help her avoid the need for an abortion? What is your plan to make sure the pregnancy itself does not cause any problems for her?

 

[GodLovesCats]

I am Eastern Orthodox and not Oriental Orthodox. Also, what does the US constitution matter in this debate when we compare it a Christian understanding of the world? Does the US and it's laws trump and supersede Christianity? This would be the typical left leaning Christian position, but it seems to be in no way justifiable on Christian pretenses.

There have been many laws and legal codes throughout history. At one time Christians were demanded to sacrifice in the name of gods and Emperors. Christians refused because God's law was higher than human law.

In the United States, the Constitution does trump God's laws. Read the First Amendment.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My goal is to make people start telling the truth about what abortion is from legal and biological perspectives and show real concerns for the mother, not pretend only one of the two lives matters in a dishonest way.

Why only from legal and biological perspectives? As Christians we also must examine it from a biblical perspective as well. Killing innocent people is strictly forbidden in the Bible, not moderately forbidden, but strictly forbidden.