Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

[BNR32FAN]

That fact still does not give anyone the right to treat women like they are second-class citizens just because their contraception failed. What is your plan to help her avoid the need for an abortion? What is your plan to make sure the pregnancy itself does not cause any problems for her?

My plan as a Christian would be to pray for that person and trust in God. If a person dies giving birth to a child then it was God’s will. Now I know that doesn’t sit well with the atheists but I don’t care if it does or not. I’m not here to do their will I’m here to do God’s will whether someone likes it or not.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

In the United States, the Constitution does trump God's laws. Read the First Amendment.

Is this true of every country or just the USA? As Christians are we bound to the laws of every country/legal system that ever existed? If you're telling me in a defacto sense the USA constitution has more power than God's law in the USA I can concede that. Yet That doesn't make the latter right, especially when a Christian looks at this issue.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the United States, the Constitution does trump God's laws. Read the First Amendment.

And as a Christian you don’t see a problem with that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the United States, the Constitution does trump God's laws. Read the First Amendment.

Should Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego have bowed to the statue of Nebuchadnezzar?

 

[Isilwen]

If a person dies giving birth to a child then it was God’s will.

I'm curious if you have ever told that exact line to a grieving husband or child that just lost their wife or mother?

What if it was God's will that the mother got an abortion because of medical reasons and you told her not to? How would you feel then?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm curious if you have ever told that exact line to a grieving husband or child that just lost their wife or mother?

Yes as a matter of fact I have. I said it to my father when my mother died and I said the same thing to my siblings when both of our parents died. I’ve also said it to several friends & family when they’ve lost a loved one. It’s a typical Christian viewpoint. Everyone I’ve said that to agreed.

 

[Desk trauma]

My plan as a Christian would be to pray for that person and trust in God. If a person dies giving birth to a child then it was God’s will. Now I know that doesn’t sit well with the atheists but I don’t care if it does or not. I’m not here to do their will I’m here to do God’s will whether someone likes it or not.

Does that extend to ectopic pregnancies'?

 

[Isilwen]

Yes as a matter of fact I have. I said it to my father when my mother died and I said the same thing to my siblings when both of our parents died. I’ve also said it to several friends & family when they’ve lost a loved one. It’s a typical Christian viewpoint. Everyone I’ve said that to agreed.

As a Christian, I disagree with you that it is always God's will that a woman dies while giving birth and even during pregnancy, especially when there is a way to prevent her death via abortion.

If you said it to me, I wouldn't have agreed at all.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Is this true of every country or just the USA? As Christians are we bound to the laws of every country/legal system that ever existed? If you're telling me in a defacto sense the USA constitution has more power than God's law in the USA I can concede that. Yet That doesn't make the latter right, especially when a Christian looks at this issue.

FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This is what makes the U.S. Constitution more powerful than the Bible in determining whether abortion is legal or illegal since everyone who calls it murder is basing that opinion on Scripture (religion), not the English dictionary. I don't know about any other constitutions.

At no point did I ever say abortion is moral just because it is legal. My whole argument regarding the U.S. Constitution has always been to simply not call it murder, slaughtering children, etc. because in the USA, it is none of that, even in totally immoral cases.

Now do you understand the difference?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

FIRST AMENDMENT OF THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

What about it? How does this address the question of what a Christian's primary loyalty is? Is it to the USA or is to God and his standards? You're basically telling me that the USA is right to permit abortion in any case, in any scenario for any reason and that Christians are wrong to oppose it. This is an absurd kind of reasoning which basically makes the USA akin to God. Actually it makes the USA superior to God.

If any other nation has a similar rule in its federal constitution, I would be happy to see it. This is what makes the U.S. Constitution more powerful than the Bible in determining whether abortion is legal or illegal since everyone who calls it murder is basing that opinion on Scripture.

So the USA is greater than God? The USA and it's constitution supersedes not only a Christian understanding of this issue but the bible itself? How are you a Christian exactly when you gladly give more to Caesar than what Jesus told us to give? Jesus only told us to give Caesar his taxes but you want us to give Caesar our minds and loyalty in an absolute fashion. Are you a troll? Because I don't see how any Christian can consider this view reasonable.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

America is not a theocracy. The definition of murder in the Bible constitutionally cannot be applied. I already explained this many times.

So you are not aware of any laws that would put the mother is prison for having an abortion? I am sure both the Texas and Ohio abortion laws do that.

As a Christian the Bible's definition of murder is what matters, not what a secular government defines. When God deems an act murder that is allowed in your country, it is from a Christian perspective murder. You know that God is the judge, not the state.

Texas abortion law: "The patient who obtains an abortion is rarely at risk of criminal penalties under Texas's statutes. More often, the criminal penalties apply to the person performing the abortion."

Guides: Abortion Laws: Criminal Penalties

Information about Texas and federal abortion laws and court cases.

guides.sll.texas.gov

Ohio abortion law: Bill SB 23 "Criminalizes abortion after when a heartbeat can be detected. No criminal penalties for the mother."

LibGuides: Abortion Laws : Ohio and Federal: Ohio Laws

LibGuides: Abortion Laws : Ohio and Federal: Ohio Laws

fclawlib.libguides.com

That is not what I mean at all. My point was the same people who want most abortions to be illegal are refusing to help pregnant girls and women get everything they need during gestation, not be treated like second-class citizens.

How many abortion opponents support universal health care and forgiving student debt? Zero. How many abortion opponents support free childcare? Zero. How many abortion opponents support tackling poverty in heavily black areas? Zero. Prove me wrong.

Refusing to help pregnant women? Are you not aware of all the pro-life organisations that exist? There are at least twice as many pro-life pregancy resource centers in the US as abortion clinics. I have to admit though, it's amusing that you complain about pregnant women being treated like second-class citizens for not being allowed to kill their offspring while you treat the fetus as if it's not even a human.

We have universial health care in my country, so I can't comment on that. Forgiving student debt is a different issue altogether. I do know that there are abortion-opponents who say that the poverty and single-mother problems within the black community need to be fixed. Candace Owens is one of them for example. I think child benefits already exist in the US as well. By the way: using abortion as a form of birth control is immoral either way. When you are too poor to feed your pet you don't just kill it. Let alone a human being.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What about it? How does this address the question of what a Christian's primary loyalty is? Is it to the USA or is to God and his standards? You're basically telling me that the USA is right to permit abortion in any case, in any scenario for any reason and that Christians are wrong to oppose it. This is an absurd kind of reasoning which basically makes the USA akin to God. Actually it makes the USA superior to God.


So the USA is greater than God? The USA and it's constitution supersedes not only a Christian understanding of this issue but the bible itself? How are you a Christian exactly when you gladly give more to Caesar than what Jesus told us to give? Jesus only told us to give Caesar his taxes but you want us to give Caesar our minds and loyalty in an absolute fashion. Are you a troll? Because I don't see how any Christian can consider this view reasonable.

I assure you brother that the majority of Christian Americans absolutely disagree with her. The Constitution absolutely does not overrule the word of God.

 

[Margaret3110]

Refusing to help pregnant women? Are you not aware of all the pro-life organisations that exist? There are at least twice as many pro-life pregancy resource centers in the US as abortion clinics. I have to admit though, it's amusing that you complain about pregnant women being treated like second-class citizens for not being allowed to kill their offspring while you treat the fetus as if it's not even a human.

We have universial health care in my country, so I can't comment on that. Forgiving student debt is a different issue altogether. I do know that there are abortion-opponents who say that the poverty and single-mother problems within the black community need to be fixed. Candace Owens is one of them for example. I think child benefits already exist in the US as well. By the way: using abortion as a form of birth control is immoral either way. When you are too poor to feed your pet you don't just kill it. Let alone a human being.

Providing diapers and such is nice, and helpful, but when you don't have actual prenatal care or postnatal care or childcare or any time off from work ... it's not enough. Pro-life people need to advocate for these policies.

 

[GodLovesCats]

What about it? How does this address the question of what a Christian's primary loyalty is? Is it to the USA or is to God and his standards? You're basically telling me that the USA is right to permit abortion in any case, in any scenario for any reason and that Christians are wrong to oppose it. This is an absurd kind of reasoning which basically makes the USA akin to God. Actually it makes the USA superior to God.

I never said the USA is superior to God or Christians should treat its government as being superior to the Bible. I am only talking about why abortion must never be called murder. That has absolutely nothing to do with my opinions about the morality of abortion. Get that straight.

 

[Desk trauma]

Texas abortion law: "The patient who obtains an abortion is rarely at risk of criminal penalties under Texas's statutes. More often, the criminal penalties apply to the person performing the abortion."

Guides: Abortion Laws: Criminal Penalties

Information about Texas and federal abortion laws and court cases.

guides.sll.texas.gov

Ohio abortion law: Bill SB 23 "Criminalizes abortion after when a heartbeat can be detected. No criminal penalties for the mother."

LibGuides: Abortion Laws : Ohio and Federal: Ohio Laws

LibGuides: Abortion Laws : Ohio and Federal: Ohio Laws

fclawlib.libguides.com

Note how those are separate laws from the ones that deal with homicide and do not classify abortion as murder.

 

[GodLovesCats]

As a Christian the Bible's definition of murder is what matters, not what a secular government defines. When God deems an act murder that is allowed in your country, it is from a Christian perspective murder. You know that God is the judge, not the state.

The Bible's definition of murder is irrelevant in the USA. I showed you why. You are choosing not to accept that fact. I am sure if you were an American citizen and got your education the same way I did, it would make more sense to you.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Providing diapers and such is nice, and helpful, but when you don't have actual prenatal care or postnatal care or childcare or any time off from work ... it's not enough. Pro-life people need to advocate for these policies.

Just one example:

Pro-Life Groups Redouble Efforts to Help Moms in Need

Anticipating the overturn of Roe v. Wade, diocesan, parish pro-life groups mobilize Catholics to further help women and families, including through the program Walking With Moms in Need.

www.ncregister.com

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

The Bible's definition of murder is irrelevant in the USA. I showed you why. You are choosing not to accept that fact. I am sure if you were an American citizen and got your education the same way I did, it would make more sense to you.

You are first a Christian, second an American citizen. That's why you don't see me use the secular laws of my country to defend an act God judges as murder.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Note how those are separate laws from the ones that deal with homicide and do not classify abortion as murder.

That was my response to the claim that Texas and Ohio imprison the mothers who have abortions rather than the doctors I wasn't trying to prove anything about homicide.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I never said the USA is superior to God or Christians should treat its government as being superior to the Bible. I am only talking about why abortion must never be called murder. That has absolutely nothing to do with my opinions about the morality of abortion. Get that straight.

When you say we can never call abortion murder you are appealing to a non-Christian legal standard to do it. Never is an absolute position and if the Christian position is that abortion is murder, it means it has been superseded by your non-Christian secular standard. The USA and it's laws are in a very real defacto sense (for you) superior to the standard of God.