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Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

dzheremi

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The position of my Church is clear, as it has been since the Didache (1st century), through the Middle Ages, and down to today. Abortion is wrong and is a sin. While it won't win me many friends in this thread, I feel it prudent here to quote St. Pisentios, bishop of Qift in the 7th century, who in the first of his two extant letters warned us in plain language: "Any woman who aborts what she carries in her womb of the incomplete foetus the Lord shall throw her into the depth of the pit of Hades."

Clear enough, no? But for those who will not accept the council of the Church, though it is the Body of Christ and the Israel of God and the Pillar and Ground of Truth, perhaps you will listen to my story. I know it is 'anecdata', and can be dismissed just as easily, but it is from this that I formed my own view on this matter long before becoming Orthodox (rather, since I was born).

You see, I'm exactly the kind of person who is used as a scare tactic for younger or older possible parents, to make the point that abortion should be legal: I have a physical disability. I've always had it, I always will have it (there's no cure/surgery to fix it), it significantly impacts my life, etc., and I'm sure it has caused much stress on my family over the years (I'm 40; thanks be to God, it is not predicted to shorten a person's life span by much, though a lot of that of course depends on other factors, just as it would for able-bodied people).

So okay then. Knowing that my very existence would be a real challenge to ______ (my parents' happiness, their marriage, family cohesiveness more generally...whatever), and knowing in advance that if I was going to have any life it was going to be a very hard one (NB: starting off at 1 lb, 6 oz as I did is quite bad for the baby's prognosis even today, let alone in 1982, when I was born), the doctors who saw my mother through my premature birth very sensibly and humanely, with science on their side and no doubt the most compassionate of intentions (I know tone is hard to read online, but I am being completely serious here), told her that in their educated opinions it would be best if I were disconnected from the life-saving machines that I was hooked up to in the neonatal ICU, as I was almost guaranteed not to be able to survive on my own, so keeping me alive artificially was in some sense delaying the inevitable and just prolonging the pain and misery my family was experiencing in dealing with my traumatic entrance into the world.

My mother, who had been a committed Christian since her teens even as the rest of her family was then and is still now atheistic/agnostic, told them to keep me on the machines anyway, and if I was to live I would live long enough to get off of them, and then we'd see. When with time she was proven exactly right, and I did live without the machines and the little igloo thing they put neonatal ICU babies in, the doctors told her that it would be best for me if I could be placed in a state-run facility rather than taken home to raised by my parents (who had their own problems, and anyway already had a perfectly healthy child, my older brother). As my mother told it to me, every year around my birthday, they said something like "he'll never be able to adapt to society." I suppose the degree to which I've adapted to society can be questioned, but she did not listen to them in this, either. I was born in early September and didn't get to celebrate my first Christmas at home until I was over one year old, but I did eventually have that pleasure. They took me home and raised me as well as they could (though they'd divorce when I was three), and have since gone on to their rest, my mother 25 years ago and my father only about two and a half years ago. May God rest them in the paradise of joy, if it be according to His good will.

My point in typing all this out about my background (which I don't really like to share online to begin with, but I think is important to establish when this topic comes up) is to ask you all what I sincerely hope will be a rhetorical question, since I respect the OP's request that we try not to attack each other over this issue:

If my story were your story, how do you think you would feel about abortion?

To me it makes sense to say that if women's decisions regarding their own bodies ought to have pride of place in discussion of this issue (which is very sensible; they are the ones with all the wombs, after all), then there ought to also be a space, however small it may be, for people like me to also have our say, even as we are the boogiemen of pregnancy; the ones who are a priori not wanted (though thanks be to God my mother obviously wanted me!); the ones who are after all used in these rhetorical fights by people on all sides, with the unspoken assumption that we cannot or ought not have a voice in this, even though we are marshalled as evidence for the necessity of abortion, because what if your child turned out to be like me?

I am a person too. Even if I scare everyone and inspire a million abortions, I am still a person. No rhetoric on any side can deny me what God has given me. I was born with it just like all of you.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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There is absolutely no reason to call anyone a murderer for making a medical decision in her doctor's office, having no idea why she chose to have an abortion instead of give birth.
What if she simply doesn't want the child?
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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... Therefore, it is literally impossible for abortion to be murder no matter what the U.S. Supreme Court says...
That's your opinion not a fact
...Jesus would never do that and it is a totally private matter which could be lifesaving for her...
To assume you know Jesus's stance on abortion to be exactly what yours is, please show me verses in the bible that would support prematurely killing the child that God “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you" Jeremiah 1:5
 
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Whyayeman

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That's an understandable position, though it's not self-evident that uncontrolled access to abortions is "the greatest good for the greatest number". The "greatest number" is all of society at large, and as Chuck Schumer recently pointed out there are severe issues emerging from declining birthrates. (His solution would be to bring it all kinds of immigrants, but that's treating the symptoms, not the root of the problem).

So even from a purely utilitarian perspective one can see the benefit of a secured next generation in a society. Killing large numbers of the would-be-generation is endangering the future of the entire society.

It's also worth pointing out that there is not a small number of atheists/non-religious people who are very pro-life. Their main way of reasoning is that human rights apply to humans, not just persons. It's not "person's rights". And the consensus among biologists is not disputed: a human life begins at conception. Therefore, these non-religious people say, the right to life applies from the point of conception.
I do not argue from a utilitarian position myself. Your point about 'securing the next generation' is one reason why not. It makes women vassals of the state, or at least of the society they live in, if a duty to maintain the population is laid upon them. Utilitarian arguments in discussions of this kind can be made for all sorts of things we would recoil over. Examples are: enforced sterilisation of certain women; eugenics; limiting the size of families - all for the 'greater good'.

Legislating for control of people's fertility is a tricky business. The law is a blunt instrument, unsuitable for the balanced judgments women must make (and men too). Women who choose abortions are generally wrestling with conflicting forces in their lives. Those many of us who do not accept theological authority based on scripture or dogma must find our way through the moral thickets surrounding abortion by reference to our own lives and consciences.

Thus, as I have said, it is probably best to regard this as a matter for individuals - and keep the Law out of it.
 
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Isilwen

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To the OP, I am with you and wish that people can just discuss this without attacking each other or using phrases that will cause an emotional reaction.

I myself and pro-life when it comes to me and anyone I am with, it is why I have seven children. Five with an ex-girlfriend who didn't want to get married and was with for ten years and two with an ex-wife. Abortion was never on the table for us, unless it was the life of the mother at stake. However, for others, I am pro-choice. I allow others to make their own decisions and dislike that in many states, their right to make that choice has been taken from them.

God gives us a choice, to either follow His way of doing things or not. Who am I to take that choice away from others?
 
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Whyayeman

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To the OP, I am with you and wish that people can just discuss this without attacking each other or using phrases that will cause an emotional reaction.

I myself and pro-life when it comes to me and anyone I am with, it is why I have seven children. Five with an ex-girlfriend who didn't want to get married and was with for ten years and two with an ex-wife. Abortion was never on the table for us, unless it was the life of the mother at stake. However, for others, I am pro-choice. I allow others to make their own decisions and dislike that in many states, their right to make that choice has been taken from them.

God gives us a choice, to either follow His way of doing things or not. Who am I to take that choice away from others?
I agree that this is a matter for individuals to make their own decisions, though of course my reference is not to 'God-given' choice, but to individual freedom in our own lives to make moral choices. the effect is much the same.

However, issues affecting such decisions are hardly ever as straightforward as life-threatening conditions for the mother-to-be. The survey cited above gives some prominence to economical issues; that is, poverty. Another is coercive behaviour of partners unwilling to practise contraception and heedless of the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. While the burden of unwanted parenthood always falls on the mother the responsibility is always joint; and there are men who shirk their responsibility.
 
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Isilwen

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I agree that this is a matter for individuals to make their own decisions, though of course my reference is not to 'God-given' choice, but to individual freedom in our own lives to make moral choices. the effect is much the same.

However, issues affecting such decisions are hardly ever as straightforward as life-threatening conditions for the mother-to-be. The survey cited above gives some prominence to economical issues; that is, poverty. Another is coercive behaviour of partners unwilling to practise contraception and heedless of the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. While the burden of unwanted parenthood always falls on the mother the responsibility is always joint; and there are men who shirk their responsibility.

I agree! I do not agree with women who use it as a form of birth control though.

My mother wanted my ex-girlfriend to abort our first child, but we said no. I was disowned from the family for it as well as for not dumping her by my mother and stepdad. They eventually came around. For the next three children with her though and the last two with my ex-wife, my mom would say abort. Again, we didn't listen.
 
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rturner76

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All life is sacred, but I understand abortions happens. It is wrong in my mind without question but again I understand it occurs-but to say abortion is the right of the mother up to delivery is simply silly
I believe there are limits to how late a woman can get an abortion
 
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Isilwen

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I believe there are limits to how late a woman can get an abortion

I haven't read where you stated what I am about to ask.

Do you believe that a woman can get an abortion in their seventh month if the women's life is in danger? How about the eighth month or the ninth?
 
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rturner76

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I haven't read where you stated what I am about to ask.

Do you believe that a woman can get an abortion in their seventh month if the women's life is in danger? How about the eighth month or the ninth?
If the woman's life is in danger, any month. However, by the 7th month, they can just give birth and don't need to be cut into. I don't think it is legal in any state to get an abortion in the 7th-9th month but I'm not sure. Back in the old days, they threw away the mother to save the baby because both would die in complications. Nowadays, it's the mom who takes priority if there are complications but with c-sections, most babies can be born at 7 months. Tell me, do you have a uterus? If not, it's not really your issue is it?
 
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Isilwen

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If the woman's life is in danger, any month. However, by the 7th month, they can just give birth and don't need to be cut into. I don't think it is legal in any state to get an abortion in the 7th-9th month but I'm not sure. Back in the old days, they threw away the mother to save the baby because both would die in complications. Nowadays, it's the mom who takes priority if there are complications but with c-sections, most babies can be born at 7 months. Tell me, do you have a uterus? If not, it's not really your issue is it?

No, no uterus, but my daughters do have a uterus and it is them I am looking to protect. So, I do think it is indeed my issue. I agree with you, that any month should be on the table when the health of the mother is at stake. I do believe however that if the mother's life is in danger that the fetus is not viable and therefore would be aborted.

All I said is that I do not agree with women who use abortion as birth control.
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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When people say "all human life is valueable", do we have an answer about what makes it valueable?

Why is human life valueable?
What makes it valueable?
How valueable? more than a mothers life? worth the risk to a mother? if so, why?

Are we more valueable than another animal? If so, what about us makes us worth more?

More valueable than a tree or an insect? If so, why?
 
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Whyayeman

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When people say "all human life is valueable", do we have an answer about what makes it valueable?

Why is human life valueable?
What makes it valueable?
How valueable? more than a mothers life? worth the risk to a mother? if so, why?

Are we more valueable than another animal? If so, what about us makes us worth more?

More valueable than a tree or an insect? If so, why?
It is because our of sense the value of human beings that decisions about abortion are so difficult. If we did not have such a sense it would be easy.
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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It is because our of sense the value of human beings that decisions about abortion are so difficult. If we did not have such a sense it would be easy.
If we got clearer on this, we could start getting a little more of a picture from anti-abortionists and those who would permit abortions as to what their worldview is.

What is it that they think is happening when there is a termination??

Say "Human Life is valueable" -
Why?? What makes it valueable?
 
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GodLovesCats

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What if she simply doesn't want the child?

It is still not murder and you still have no reason or right to call her a murderer. You still do not know why she had an abortion even if it is that simple.

You are only allowed to show love, kindness,, and respect to pregnant girls and women who do not want babies, according to Jesus himself.
 
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GodLovesCats

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To assume you know Jesus's stance on abortion to be exactly what yours is, please show me verses in the Bible that world support prematurely killing the child that God “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you" Jeremiah 1:5

I never assumed I know what Jesus thinks of abortion is the same as mine or remotely implied I do.

I know that verse. It still does not in any way give you the right to call girls and women who choose abortion "murderers" or make the unborn life any more important than the woman herself.
 
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dzheremi

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You are only allowed to show love, kindness,, and respect to pregnant girls and women who do not want babies, according to Jesus himself.

I'm sorry, but what is this belief based on? I'm genuinely curious, as I am unaware of any tradition, scriptural passage, or really anything that indicates that Jesus specifically addressed pregnant girls or women who do not want babies.
 
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GodLovesCats

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I'm sorry, but what is this belief based on? I'm genuinely curious, as I am unaware of any tradition, scriptural passage, or really anything that indicates that Jesus specifically addressed pregnant girls or women who do not want babies.

Jesus specifically addressed how we must treat sinners when they sin. If you are a Christian, you know exactly what he said about that.Even non-Christians memorize the Golden Rule.
 
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dzheremi

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Jesus specifically addressed how we must treat sinners when they sin. If you are a Christian, you know exactly what he said about that.Even non-Christians memorize the Golden Rule.

Ok, but you specifically claimed something about women and girls who don't want babies. This is a lot more general than that.
 
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