Can people who disagree on abortion stop attacking each other?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If the life in the womb is human then it is murder. There is no intentional lie here by the anti abortion side.

Also, to expect a friendly conversation over anything that stirs passion is delusional.

 

[GodLovesCats]

If the life in the womb is human then it is murder. There is no intentional lie here by the anti abortion side.

Also, to expect a friendly conversation over anything that stirs passion is delusional.

Everyone knows murder is only illegal homicide. Can you prove all abortions are illegal, even to save the mother's life?

All Christians on this forum know the Golden Rule and the Second Commandment. They know what Jesus said about love, respect, and kindness. So if you want to believe I am delusional, you want to sin by treating people on the other side with total disrespect and mean insults, not make any effort to do what Jesus would do.

The intentional lie is in your own post: calling completely legal procedures murder.

 

[Whyayeman]

I said human being. Not person. I'm sure you can differentiate between a biological term and a legal term.

Perhaps I am less certain about this than you.

The law is clear about what a person is. It has less to say about the distinction you are making. It has been pointed out that there are big differences in religious opinion about the soul's appearance on the scene; at any moment between conception and puberty. Once that theological point is cleared up the abortion debate is over.

I think this question is at the core of the debate. As I don't think there is such an entity as a soul I have to ask a different sort of question. In large part the answer for many like me is utilitarian - the greatest good for the greatest number. Yet utilitarian solutions to moral issues are sometimes too easy to construct and dismantle.

It is difficult to come to a neat answer to this moral issue unless you rely, as many do, on the authority of religion. Yet even among the religious there is much disagreement.

Thus it is probably best to regard this as a matter for individuals - and keep the Law out of it.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Everyone knows murder is only illegal homicide. Can you prove all abortions are illegal, even to save the mother's life?

All Christians on this forum know the Golden Rule and the Second Commandment. They know what Jesus said about love, respect, and kindness. So if you want to believe I am delusional, you want to sin by treating people on the other side with total disrespect and mean insults, not make any effort to do what Jesus would do.

The intentional lie is in your own post: calling completely legal procedures murder.

Illegal homicide by the standards of current law in a country like the US? Or murder by a Christian understanding of what murder is? Those are two rather different things.

With regards to my delusion comment. I wasn't insulting you, only saying that your desire will not be met out in reality because people who disagree on subjects intensely tend to become passionate. You for instance believe in unfettered access to abortion for any reason. Christianity rejects said standard and thus the conflict.

This can never be merely a friendly conversation, mainly because the stakes are so high and both sides are invested in their side.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I never want to debate abortion with people who disagree with me on the issue because it just goes around in circles, with "pro-lifers" wrongly accusing pro-choicers of murdering babies (which is obviously a lie)...

I understand not wanting to debate, but throwing out there your opinion that abortion as murdering babies being "obviously a lie" is basically asking for a debate. People asked my mom to have an abortion, i would be dead if she got it, which is obviously not a lie.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

The whole purpose of this thread is to NOT have extremely obvious and offensive lies such as "slaughtering unborn children" that make people look like evil idiots instead of real Christians. Read the thread title again.

What do you think the Bible says about treating others with love and respect even if you totally disagree with them? And what did you learn in English classes at school about the definition of "child, which is a BORN human being?

Where is the lie though? Killing 62 million human beings within 50 years is well within the definition of "slaughter". You might not like it, but it's not a lie.

Sorry that I'm not aware of a more fitting word than "child". In my language we call the offspring of a man and a woman their "child", no matter at which stage of development. You can disagree with the term, but not with the fact that people kill their offspring in the hundreds of thousands every single year.

 

[Margaret3110]

I understand not wanting to debate, but throwing out there your opinion that abortion as murdering babies being "obviously a lie" is basically asking for a debate. People asked my mom to have an abortion, i would be dead if she got it, which is obviously not a lie.

I think it's not so much about not wanting to debate, as not wanting to debate with people that are completely convinced they're right.

I used to think the world was so black and white. I don't anymore.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Perhaps I am less certain about this than you.

The law is clear about what a person is. It has less to say about the distinction you are making. It has been pointed out that there are big differences in religious opinion about the soul's appearance on the scene; at any moment between conception and puberty. Once that theological point is cleared up the abortion debate is over.

I think this question is at the core of the debate. As I don't think there is such an entity as a soul I have to ask a different sort of question. In large part the answer for many like me is utilitarian - the greatest good for the greatest number. Yet utilitarian solutions to moral issues are sometimes too easy to construct and dismantle.

It is difficult to come to a neat answer to this moral issue unless you rely, as many do, on the authority of religion. Yet even among the religious there is much disagreement.

Thus it is probably best to regard this as a matter for individuals - and keep the Law out of it.

That's an understandable position, though it's not self-evident that uncontrolled access to abortions is "the greatest good for the greatest number". The "greatest number" is all of society at large, and as Chuck Schumer recently pointed out there are severe issues emerging from declining birthrates. (His solution would be to bring it all kinds of immigrants, but that's treating the symptoms, not the root of the problem).

So even from a purely utilitarian perspective one can see the benefit of a secured next generation in a society. Killing large numbers of the would-be-generation is endangering the future of the entire society.

It's also worth pointing out that there is not a small number of atheists/non-religious people who are very pro-life. Their main way of reasoning is that human rights apply to humans, not just persons. It's not "person's rights". And the consensus among biologists is not disputed: a human life begins at conception. Therefore, these non-religious people say, the right to life applies from the point of conception.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I think it's not so much about not wanting to debate, as not wanting to debate with people that are completely convinced they're right.

I used to think the world was so black and white. I don't anymore.

Not all things are black and white, but not all things are grey either. There are definitely some truths in the bible and considering abortion as murder actually makes sense. There is a life and people are taking it away without the say of the life itself.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Illegal homicide by the standards of current law in a country like the US? Or murder by a Christian understanding of what murder is? Those are two rather different things.

The word "murder" always means illegal homicide according to constitutional laws, not Biblical laws.

With regards to my delusion comment. I wasn't insulting you, only saying that your desire will not be met out in reality because people who disagree on subjects intensely tend to become passionate. You for instance believe in unfettered access to abortion for any reason. Christianity rejects said standard and thus the conflict.

Show me where I said that. Most pregnancies can be diagnosed during the embryonic stage. I only support aborting fetuses for medical reasons.

This can never be merely a friendly conversation, mainly because the stakes are so high and both sides are invested in their side.

As ordinary citizens who do not financially or politically benefit from any opinions on abortion, we can always try to be friendlier than our elected representatives when discussing its morality. I want to see Christians try to follow the Golden Rule where an agreement is impossible.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The word "murder" always means illegal homicide according to constitutional laws, not Biblical laws.

Am I to discount a Christian understanding of murder in favour a purely secular one? As a Christian why do you think the non-Christian standard is better and or superior?

Show me where I said that. Most pregnancies can be diagnosed during the embryonic stage. I only support aborting fetuses for medical reasons.

You don't support abortion of convenience?

As ordinary citizens who do not financially or politically benefit from any opinions on abortion, we can always try to be friendlier than our elected representatives when discussing its morality. I want to see Christians try to follow the Golden Rule where an agreement is impossible.

Even Jesus got mad at times and uncivil with his enemies. We do not have to necessarily engage in a standard of absolute friendliness on the subject of abortion.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I understand not wanting to debate, but throwing out there your opinion that abortion as murdering babies being "obviously a lie" is basically asking for a debate. People asked my mom to have an abortion, i would be dead if she got it, which is obviously not a lie.

If you were aborted, your death would have been a legal one. It could not have been murder.

Why did people want your mom to have an abortion?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

If you were aborted, your death would have been a legal one. It could not have been murder.

Why did people want your mom to have an abortion?

Slavery was legal, do you think Jesus approved of the way slaves were treated? Considering something as legal meaning the same as not sinful is not logical. Also abortion is illegal at this moment, so what does that say about the topic? Nothing other than the laws changed. But God does not change and neither does His commands not to murder.

 

[Margaret3110]

Not all things are black and white, but not all things are grey either. There are definitely some truths in the bible and considering abortion as murder actually makes sense. There is a life and people are taking it away without the say of the life itself.

I'm genuinely curious - if it's black and white, then why do you think so many people have differing opinions on the matter of abortion? Nobody is confused over whether killing a 6-year-old is murder. Nobody is arguing that that should be acceptable.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I'm genuinely curious - if it's black and white, then why do you think so many people have differing opinions on the matter of abortion? Nobody is confused over whether killing a 6-year-old is murder. Nobody is arguing that that should be acceptable.

Because they have differing desires. Bottom line is people don't want to take care of a child so they put their own desires before the life of a child.

 

[Margaret3110]

Because they have differing desires. Bottom line is people don't want to take care of a child so they put their own desires before the life of a child.

Why do otherwise decent people who have never had an abortion and have no desire to ever have an abortion think that it should be legal?

 

[GodLovesCats]

Am I to discount a Christian understanding of murder in favor a purely secular one? As a Christian why do you think the non-Christian standard is better and or superior?

The definition of murder is strictly secular. It is 00% about the laws of the state or province and country you live in. That is a fact.

For the opposite to be true, we must live in a Christian theocracy. America has been a secular nation width separation between church and state since 1791, so by constitutional law that cannot happen. Would you like to live in Vatican City?

You don't support abortion of convenience?

I totally support the woman's right to privacy and oppose the government making medical decisions for her. Only God knows her body more than she does. Any law that mandates abortion reporting is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. I don't want women to choose abortions for any reason, but no matter what the reason is, the government has no legal right to stop her.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The definition of murder is strictly secular. It is 00% about the laws of the state or province and country you live in. That is a fact.

For the opposite to be true, we must live in a Christian theocracy. America has been a secular nation width separation between church and state since 1791, so by constitutional law that cannot happen. Would you like to live in Vatican City?

Christian moral standards have had a say in more than just theocracies. Monarchies and Republics in the middle ages were informed by Christian sense and understanding. Yet if you want me to subordinate my Christianity to your secularism which seeks to exclude Christianity from power I will not.

What is the Christian argument for subordinating our morality to a non-Christian secular moral position? Especially on a subject like abortion which involves the very inception of human life?

I totally support the woman's right to privacy and oppose the government making medical decisions for her. Only God knows her body more than she does. Any law that mandates abortion reporting is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. I don't want women to choose abortions for any reason, but no matter what the reason is, the government has no legal right to stop her.

So I wasn't wrong when I said you support unfettered access and no practical restrictions on abortion.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Why do otherwise decent people who have never had an abortion and have no desire to ever have an abortion think that it should be legal?

There a various reasons why people are pro-abortion. Almost everyone has an opinion on this topic, but many of them aren't interested or enthusiastic enough to look at the statistics or even the basic biological facts. There are still people out there who believe that a 12-week fetus is "a clump of cells". For them it is absurd that Hungary has a law requiring women who seek an abortion to listen to the fetus' heartbeat at 12 weeks onwards, because they don't understand that a fetus has a heartbeat after 12 weeks.
Then there are those who don't think a fetus is a human being. Biology isn't their strong side either.
Some people who are pro-choice agree that a fetus is a human being, but don't agree with the Christian presupposition that every human being is made in God's image and therefore must not be killed. They believe only "persons" are valuable, whatever that is, and draw all kinds of artificial lines when a life is valuable. None of their lines is logically coherent though, and when you press them on the issue they will appeal to emotion rather than reason (using rape and other fringe cases to justify the other 99%). Birth is one of those arbitrary lines, and earlier in this thread I already explained how birth isn't logically coherent in determining a human's value. Someone then suggested "24 weeks, viability", and I again showed how that isn't logically coherent. You can draw lines at 15 weeks, 12 weeks and 6 weeks, but the only logical coherent point is in the end the point of conception. Many people just never thought it through.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Slavery was legal, do you think Jesus approved of the way slaves were treated? Considering something as legal meaning the same as not sinful is not logical. Also abortion is illegal at this moment, so what does that say about the topic? Nothing other than the laws changed. But God does not change and neither does His commands not to murder.

Abortion certainly is legal in America. The Constitutional amendments that make it so will never be repealed. This cannot be disputed. You can argue forever about abortion not being legal in this state or that state, but some states added abortion rights while others were banning them. I also know calling abortion illegal can only mean there are no exceptions for rape, incest, and maternal health emergencies. Therefore, it is literally impossible for abortion to be murder no matter what the U.S. Supreme Court says.

Slavery is not comparable in any way. If you can give me a better example, I would like to read it.

I never said just because abortion is legal it is always moral and good. I never said women should get abortions for any reason they want whenever they want. I strongly believe all pregnant girls and women must be treated with love, respect, and dignity and get all of the help they need to deal with their physical and psychological distress, even if the decision ends up being an abortion. There is absolutely no reason to call anyone a murderer for making a medical decision in her doctor's office, having no idea why she chose to have an abortion instead of give birth. Jesus would never do that and it is a totally private matter which could be lifesaving for her.