Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

[Frogster]

Closed eyes or ears won't listen to instructions of reproof.

Not the first time you've said this either.
It doesn't matter what they think if they were or not. The question is, are they? Why the big obsession with whether or not someone is false?

ok..I tried....see ya..

 

[Frogster]

The problem we are discussing is not whether the person is anointed but rather if he is should we discredit it without really knowing and the consequences that may bring upon ourselves.

i quoted quite a few verses, and they were not afraid to speak against whom they did, and they knew the ever milked, ever exhausted "touch not my anointed" verse.

You seem to be reasonable, do you think that false teachers think, or call themselves "anointed", and does that give them too much protection to try to use that verse to hide behind?

We had a member right on this thread, say they used that on her. Thank God she knows better.

 

[Frogster]

I heard an interesting teaching about this form John Paul Jackson, I think it was.

David was not allowed to fight against Saul. He was in a bit of a quandary. He was among the Phillistines, yet he was being called on to fight against Saul. Mr. Jackson was saying that it was likely that he would have been called on to kill King Saul (his son Jonathan beside him). So David, a man without a homeland, a king in exile, was told NOT to fight because of the objections of the Phillistines.

So David's all bummed out, yet it was this battle that opened up the kingdom for David. After Saul was slain, David went and claimed his throne. It seemed grim for David, but God was using these circumstances in his favor.

David's heart was clear when he chose NOT to kill Saul in the cave. It was because he did not want to touch God's anointed (even if he was wrong).

well gee. i am not saying to kill false teachers, but david touched saul in a way saul did not like, so likewise,l i won't sword false apostles, but i will take soldiers from them!

 

[Andrea411]

ok..I tried....see ya..

…seems to me that you approach life in fear…. we should only fear the Lord and that fear is more about being in awe of the Lord then being fearful

*This is my command—be strong and courageous! Do not be afraid or discouraged. For the Lord your God is with you wherever you go. Joshua 1:9
*But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it. So don’t worry or be afraid of their threats. 1 Peter 3:14
*One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision and told him, “Don’t be afraid! Speak out! Don’t be silent! Acts 18:9
*Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love. 1 John 4:18
*When I am afraid, I put my trust in you. Psalm 56:3
*In God, whose word I praise— in God I trust and am not afraid. What can mere mortals do to me? Psalm 56:4 NIV
*He will cover you with his feathers. He will shelter you with his wings. His faithful promises are your armor and protection. Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor the arrow that flies in the day. Do not dread the disease that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. *Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you. Psalm 91:4-8
*They do not fear bad news; they confidently trust the Lord to care for them. Psalm 112:7

 

[TasManOfGod]

i quoted quite a few verses, and they were not afraid to speak against whom they did, and they knew the ever milked, ever exhausted "touch not my anointed" verse.

You seem to be reasonable, do you think that false teachers think, or call themselves "anointed", and does that give them too much protection to try to use that verse to hide behind?

We had a member right on this thread, say they used that on her. Thank God she knows better.

Did Jesus warn the pharisees not to discredit Him?
Should they have known better?

 

[Alive_Again]

The problem we are discussing is not whether the person is anointed but rather if he is should we discredit it without really knowing and the consequences that may bring upon ourselves.

Bingo! There are many preachers I've come across in my many hours of searching for teachings and good preaching. Some seem very enticing to your spirit and others have nice sounding titles, but no draw to them.

There are many highly regarded ministers I've never sensed a bit of anointing on their messages. I strongly suspect it is true (in some cases), yet I cannot dismiss them outright because I did not sense it.

How many evangelical preachers (who are highly regarded) do not know the baptism of the Holy Spirit (they'd argue this endlessly), yet you know what it's really like to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. It's not just some doctrinal insistence when you were water baptized. It IS A secondary experience. Without it, your preaching lacks power, even if it sounds good.

There are a number of others in the charismatic move I don't know anything about or received anything from their ministry, yet I'm pretty certain they are anointed. I just haven't been led to partake of their ministry at this time.

There ARE those that I have experienced a wonderful anointing from and because of that same anointing they draw fire from those who make judgments. I know for a fact it's exceedingly dangerous to speak against them. If they made some claims that were not justified, you'd have to be careful how you stated this, if at all.

It's not that you can't discern error if it happens, you just have to careful about flippantly offering judgments on God's servants. They're not our servants.

I recall doing this in the first six months after I came back from my backsliding. I made a comment about a well known minister and his so-called easy messages. I heard a prophecy where the Lord addressed this very thing and I tossed my speculative judgment out there. I had no business at all speaking against this person. I knew it when I said it.

It's easy to make mistakes doing this. We make ourselves fools in the spirit realm when we do this.

I haven't had any leading whatsoever to investigate some of these signs in some of these meetings. It's not the sign that I"m after, it's the anointing. It's the freedom and liberty you get from it. It's the zoe life that energizes. But if I'm at a meeting and I'm getting this, and some of these manifestations start happening, I'd be a lot more willing to be convinced at least, because that is the environment where these things should be taking place.

 

[Frogster]

…seems to me that you approach life in fear…. we should only fear the Lord and that fear is more about being in awe of the Lord then being fearful

*This is my command—be strong and courageous! Do not be afraid or discouraged. For the Lord your God is with you wherever you go. Joshua 1:9
*But even if you suffer for doing what is right, God will reward you for it. So don’t worry or be afraid of their threats. 1 Peter 3:14
*One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision and told him, “Don’t be afraid! Speak out! Don’t be silent! Acts 18:9
*Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love. 1 John 4:18
*When I am afraid, I put my trust in you. Psalm 56:3
*In God, whose word I praise— in God I trust and am not afraid. What can mere mortals do to me? Psalm 56:4 NIV
*He will cover you with his feathers. He will shelter you with his wings. His faithful promises are your armor and protection. Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor the arrow that flies in the day. Do not dread the disease that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. *Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you. Psalm 91:4-8
*They do not fear bad news; they confidently trust the Lord to care for them. Psalm 112:7

David was filled with terror, psalm 55, Paul feared that the church in Thess was sifted by the devil, he came into macedonia in fear 2 Cor 7, he had daily fear about the churches 2 Cor 11:28, and he feared the devil would...


11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Jesus also knew we would fight apponents, and said he will help us...


Luke 21:15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.


But on a light note, I just posted that to prove a point, but the frog is calm.

 

[Frogster]

Did Jesus warn the pharisees not to discredit Him?
Should they have known better?

you did not answer, ok, I tried...

besides, he was Jesus, and there will be fake Jesus', and he warned of false apostles in rev 2, and elsewhere, and again, no doubt, they will hold up the banner of "I am God's anointed! So do not touch me, or challenge my teachings!"

 

[Alive_Again]

11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

This is another thing we can test by. Are the fruits of the ministers in question leading people into a closer walk; a more narrow way. Is there a greater liberty when their message is given heed to? Is the love of God increasing? Is the Word being magnified?

Let's look at what is being preached.

"I am God's anointed! So do not touch me, or challenge my teachings!"

Rather than, "Do not challenge my teachings", let's actually examine the teachings and not dismiss them personally until we do.

 

[Frogster]

This is another thing we can test by. Are the fruits of the ministers in question leading people into a closer walk; a more narrow way. Is there a greater liberty when their message is given heed to? Is the love of God increasing? Is the Word being magnified?

Let's look at what is being preached.



Rather than, "Do not challenge my teachings", let's actually examine the teachings and not dismiss them personally until we do.

sorry..we have all seen them take refuge under that verse..there was a member right here on this thread that heard that stuff.

soooo..do false teachers think they are, or say they are "God's anointed", and is does'nt that make it to easy to go unchallenged?

Paul, peter, Jesus, john, Jude, attacked false ones, why did they do that, when they knew about the touch not verse?

 

[Andrea411]

This is another thing we can test by. Are the fruits of the ministers in question leading people into a closer walk; a more narrow way. Is there a greater liberty when their message is given heed to? Is the love of God increasing? Is the Word being magnified?

Let's look at what is being preached.



Rather than, "Do not challenge my teachings", let's actually examine the teachings and not dismiss them personally until we do.

Yes, lets look at these teachings. Please. I know people who have experienced the gold dust phenomenon. It wasn't being taught at their church. Although these people were aware that it was occurring in different areas of the country. They were not asking for it or expecting it. They got the gold oil running down their hands in worship…. actually at a practice sessions preparing for the service. I'm fairly sure it only happened once but there was no teaching against it or for it in this particular (conservative) Charismatic church…. just a sense of awe and wonder by those who experienced it.
Another church had a glittery substance fall during worship… it stayed for an entire evening and then seemed to melt away… only leaving the sense of His presence being with them. This same church had the fire dept called on them 3-4 times one night bc the neighbors kept seeing fire over the church. It was pouring rain at the time…. also just a sense of awe that the Lord is so good He bothers to touch His children.
I don't ask the Lord to give me gems or gold dust but if I'm in worship and it falls… I'm not running from it… I will stay and worship He who loves us enough to die for us, forgive our sins, call us friend and sometimes send gold dust….

and since when is gold something effeminate. Men wear gold and if it comes from the Lord you say thank you and wear it…

It bothers me that when people teach against the Holy Spirit touching His children in the way He chooses that He won't because He is not welcome…. we already know He is not welcome in most churches in this country. I want a deeper walk with Christ… not this superficial nonsense that happens for an hour a week on Sundays and maybe on a midweek service…. I want it all. I want what Moses had…. I want to see what Stephen saw…. I have seen the glory cloud and I want to stand in His midst and lift my voice and my hands and prostrate myself before my Lord and King…. and not have to worry that some uptight fear-mongering legalist will quench the Spirit of God simply bc he doesn't THINK GOD MOVES THAT WAY!!!!! Guess what He's God, He moves anyway He pleases but He doesn't force Himself on anyone…. and those that stand against the Holy Spirit moving stop us all from seeing the glory cloud…


its beens so long, I know what it means…. like a deer panting after water…. PS 42:1 Just like a deer that craves streams of water, my whole being craves you, God…. do they know what that is?….. sometimes I feel like I will shrivel up and be gone…. there is so little happening in our churches and so much fear of the unknown….. but I don't want to live a Spirit --feared life, but a Spirit-filled life….

 

[TasManOfGod]

Yes, lets look at these teachings. Please. I know people who have experienced the gold dust phenomenon. It wasn't being taught at their church. Although these people were aware that it was occurring in different areas of the country. They were not asking for it or expecting it. They got the gold oil running down their hands in worship…. actually at a practice sessions preparing for the service. I'm fairly sure it only happened once but there was no teaching against it or for it in this particular (conservative) Charismatic church…. just a sense of awe and wonder by those who experienced it.
Another church had a glittery substance fall during worship… it stayed for an entire evening and then seemed to melt away… only leaving the sense of His presence being with them. This same church had the fire dept called on them 3-4 times one night bc the neighbors kept seeing fire over the church. It was pouring rain at the time…. also just a sense of awe that the Lord is so good He bothers to touch His children.
I don't ask the Lord to give me gems or gold dust but if I'm in worship and it falls… I'm not running from it… I will stay and worship He who loves us enough to die for us, forgive our sins, call us friend and sometimes send gold dust….

and since when is gold something effeminate. Men wear gold and if it comes from the Lord you say thank you and wear it…

It bothers me that when people teach against the Holy Spirit touching His children in the way He chooses that He won't because He is not welcome…. we already know He is not welcome in most churches in this country. I want a deeper walk with Christ… not this superficial nonsense that happens for an hour a week on Sundays and maybe on a midweek service…. I want it all. I want what Moses had…. I want to see what Stephen saw…. I have seen the glory cloud and I want to stand in His midst and lift my voice and my hands and prostrate myself before my Lord and King…. and not have to worry that some uptight fear-mongering legalist will quench the Spirit of God simply bc he doesn't THINK GOD MOVES THAT WAY!!!!! Guess what He's God, He moves anyway He pleases but He doesn't force Himself on anyone…. and those that stand against the Holy Spirit moving stop us all from seeing the glory cloud…


its beens so long, I know what it means…. like a deer panting after water…. PS 42:1 Just like a deer that craves streams of water, my whole being craves you, God…. do they know what that is?….. sometimes I feel like I will shrivel up and be gone…. there is so little happening in our churches and so much fear of the unknown….. but I don't want to live a Spirit --feared life, but a Spirit-filled life….

There is no doubt that Satan has used the fear mongers among the brethren to quench the Spirit of God, sadly to their own detriment

 

[Frogster]

There is no doubt that Satan has used the fear mongers among the brethren to quench the Spirit of God, sadly to their own detriment

why do you think Paul worte against false teachings so much, and sometimes with urgency, was he a monger?


Look at how jude was going to write about one thing, but changed in urgency, Peter wrote against those who make up stuff, for profit, i could go on and on about biblical "fear mongers".

watch out for gangrene,.... friendly joke....tee hee...


2 Timothy 2:17
and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,


fear monger Paul..



3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.

 

[Frogster]

Yes, lets look at these teachings. Please. I know people who have experienced the gold dust phenomenon. It wasn't being taught at their church. Although these people were aware that it was occurring in different areas of the country. They were not asking for it or expecting it. They got the gold oil running down their hands in worship…. actually at a practice sessions preparing for the service. I'm fairly sure it only happened once but there was no teaching against it or for it in this particular (conservative) Charismatic church…. just a sense of awe and wonder by those who experienced it.
Another church had a glittery substance fall during worship… it stayed for an entire evening and then seemed to melt away… only leaving the sense of His presence being with them. This same church had the fire dept called on them 3-4 times one night bc the neighbors kept seeing fire over the church. It was pouring rain at the time…. also just a sense of awe that the Lord is so good He bothers to touch His children.
I don't ask the Lord to give me gems or gold dust but if I'm in worship and it falls… I'm not running from it… I will stay and worship He who loves us enough to die for us, forgive our sins, call us friend and sometimes send gold dust….

and since when is gold something effeminate. Men wear gold and if it comes from the Lord you say thank you and wear it…

It bothers me that when people teach against the Holy Spirit touching His children in the way He chooses that He won't because He is not welcome…. we already know He is not welcome in most churches in this country. I want a deeper walk with Christ… not this superficial nonsense that happens for an hour a week on Sundays and maybe on a midweek service…. I want it all. I want what Moses had…. I want to see what Stephen saw…. I have seen the glory cloud and I want to stand in His midst and lift my voice and my hands and prostrate myself before my Lord and King…. and not have to worry that some uptight fear-mongering legalist will quench the Spirit of God simply bc he doesn't THINK GOD MOVES THAT WAY!!!!! Guess what He's God, He moves anyway He pleases but He doesn't force Himself on anyone…. and those that stand against the Holy Spirit moving stop us all from seeing the glory cloud…


its beens so long, I know what it means…. like a deer panting after water…. PS 42:1 Just like a deer that craves streams of water, my whole being craves you, God…. do they know what that is?….. sometimes I feel like I will shrivel up and be gone…. there is so little happening in our churches and so much fear of the unknown….. but I don't want to live a Spirit --feared life, but a Spirit-filled life….

do you believe in crying catholic statues, and the fatima story, and stigmatas.

as far as gold being effeminate, i was not exactly talking about a man wearing a watch, i am talking about a man walking around with tiny littly sparkles on himself, as girls wear that.

 

[Frogster]

There is no doubt that Satan has used the fear mongers among the brethren to quench the Spirit of God, sadly to their own detriment

do you believe in crying catholic statues, and the fatima story, and stigmatas?

how about stories of rosary beads turning into a gold color?

 

[TasManOfGod]

do you believe in crying catholic statues, and the fatima story, and stigmatas?

how about stories of rosary beads turning into a gold color?

Perhaps you should go to their forum and see what sort of a reception you get there

 

[contango]

Closed eyes or ears won't listen to instructions of reproof.

Not the first time you've said this either.
It doesn't matter what they think if they were or not. The question is, are they? Why the big obsession with whether or not someone is false?

Obsession with whether someone is false?

I'd have said it was pretty crucial to figure out if a teacher speaks truth or falsehood. If someone is spreading false teachings we need to know so we can reject the false teaching.

Romans 16:17 says we are to mark people who cause divisions with bad teaching and avoid them. How do we mark and avoid such people unless we determine who they are? And how do we determine who they are without considering whether or not they are false?

 

[Frogster]

Perhaps you should go to their forum and see what sort of a reception you get there

could be interesting.


but hey, the frog raises a point, people who believe in silly extremes, can't really question crying statues, because hey, according to their usual defense, "we can't put God in a box", it must go both ways, if glitter is cool, statues are cool, and we should hope for Fatima visits too.

 

[Andrea411]

do you believe in crying catholic statues, and the fatima story, and stigmatas.

as far as gold being effeminate, i was not exactly talking about a man wearing a watch, i am talking about a man walking around with tiny littly sparkles on himself, as girls wear that.

No I set that stuff aside and do not visit those things. I do not think that believers who are Catholic are not saved; as many who focus on doctrines do. But I do not see a crying statue as something demonic either. The Lord knows what will draw these believers closer to Him.
The Stigmata is an affliction I would not want BUT 'listen to me' unbelievers are touched by this in a way that we believers are not. When it is a real stigmata it is a fearful thing attributed to Christ on the cross. For many it is absolute proof that He Himself is present in their suffering. Do not deny the power that this has to make an unbeliever listen to the Word of God!!
…..what were the fruits of Fatima? I do not know. I do know that many who were not believers thought they saw a God-given miracle. What did that do to their faith in Christ. What did it do to the unbelievers of the world? I set these things aside….. they have not effected me or mine…. I do not deny them as possibly God-given. For He alone is sovereign and He alone decides how and when to reveal Himself… a dream, allowing the sun to stop for a day, an unwinnable battle won by a few…. look at the 6 day war?? How does that fit into our beliefs. I don't know. I set them aside.
I would not mock them or attribute them to demons….. out of respect for the Lord.
I suggest you pray 'into' these things if they bother you… praying that the Lord reveal to you whether these are of Him, repenting if you offended Him if you are wrong and plainly telling him that you only do these things bc you think He can not defend Himself in this our apostate world.
God bless Frogster there is more to us and Him then words printed on a page…

 

[Frogster]

No I set that stuff aside and do not visit those things. I do not think that believers who are Catholic are not saved; as many who focus on doctrines do. But I do not see a crying statue as something demonic either. The Lord knows what will draw these believers closer to Him.
The Stigmata is an affliction I would not want BUT 'listen to me' unbelievers are touched by this in a way that we believers are not. When it is a real stigmata it is a fearful thing attributed to Christ on the cross. For many it is absolute proof that He Himself is present in their suffering. Do not deny the power that this has to make an unbeliever listen to the Word of God!!
…..what were the fruits of Fatima? I do not know. I do know that many who were not believers thought they saw a God-given miracle. What did that do to their faith in Christ. What did it do to the unbelievers of the world? I set these things aside….. they have not effected me or mine…. I do not deny them as possibly God-given. For He alone is sovereign and He alone decides how and when to reveal Himself… a dream, allowing the sun to stop for a day, an unwinnable battle won by a few…. look at the 6 day war?? How does that fit into our beliefs. I don't know. I set them aside.
I would not mock them or attribute them to demons….. out of respect for the Lord. I suggest you pray 'into' these things if they bother you… praying that the Lord reveal to you whether these are of Him, repenting if you offended Him if you are wrong and plainly telling him that you only do these things bc you think He can not defend Himself in this our apostate world.
God bless Frogster there is more to us and Him then words printed on a page…

ok, so it seems as though stigmatas, crying statues, fatima, are fine with you? there is a vagueness here..sorry....

so i guess rosary beads that turn to a gold color, hosts that turn to blood in their mouths, and I mean that literally, not just doctrinally, and levitating preists are fine too?

I just ask, only for clarification, about where you stand, because after this, I can go into other religions, and their practices and mystical things too, to learn more about my sis, thanks, happy new year, be blessed, frog.

ps, red above, as far as respect for the Lord, that is relative to if one believes that this stuff is from the Lord. Some doctrines are of demons, Paul said.