Can I loose my Salvation?

dadof10 said:

Justification/salvation is an ongoing process, not a one time event. As C.S. Lewis said, (paraphrasing) at every moment of our lives, with every decision we make, we are either turning into something capable of enjoying Heaven (salvation) or the opposite.

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"You WERE washed, you WERE sanctified, you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1Cor6:11

The tense in this verse is "aorist"; the meaning is "PAST". When we were forgiven, we were washed-clean; we were justified, we were sanctified. PAST. How can "sanctification/justification/salvation" be an ongoing process when they happened through Jesus' name? Didn't by one offereing Jesus "perfect for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb10:14)? The only time one needs to be "rejustified" or "resanctified" is if they have FORSAKEN what they HAD.

Scripture does not present "continuing in a process OF salvation", it speaks of "continuing in the salvation that you HAVE." Look at how Philip2:12-13 was written: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose". Work TO BE saved? No; work BECAUSE we ARE savd, it is God who works THROUGH us --- we do not DO the work He does it through us.

The other side-of-the-coin is that "contionuing IN salvation is possible"; and "not-continuing-in-salvation is also possible." All of the warnings carry eternal consequences; real consequences. We are told to "examine ourselves to see if we are IN Christ (and Christ is IN us)" (2Cor13:5). Peter patiently admonishes us to "exhibit saved qualities, not to have forgotten former purification but be diligent to be certain of our calling and election that the GATES (eisodos) of Heaven be PROVIDED" (2:1:5-11). Peter does not mean "abundantly pfovided if you ARE diligent and less-abundantly provided if you are NOT diligent", Peter means "abundantly provided if you are diligent or NOT PROVIDED AT ALL if you are NOT!"

Your wording in your last sentence is correct --- every decision we make affects our "entering Heaven or not" --- but it is "abiding in Him, abiding in the salvation that He bought for us with His blood".

"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him." Col2:6

"Now, little children, ABIDE IN Him, SO THAT when He appears you may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame when He comes". 1Jn2:28

The "temptation passage", 1Cor10:13 --- is prefaced by verse 12: "Let he who thinks he stand take heed lest he fall" --- fall from what? Fall-from-steadfastness-but-STAY-SAVED? Fall-from-righteousness-but-REMAIN-SAVED? Fall-from-abiding-in-Him-to-abiding-in-sin-but-REMAIN-HEAVENBOUND?

FALL is FALL.

Ben johnson said:

"You WERE washed, you WERE sanctified, you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1Cor6:11

The tense in this verse is "aorist"; the meaning is "PAST". When we were forgiven, we were washed-clean; we were justified, we were sanctified. PAST. How can "sanctification/justification/salvation" be an ongoing process when they happened through Jesus' name? Didn't by one offereing Jesus "perfect for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb10:14)? The only time one needs to be "rejustified" or "resanctified" is if they have FORSAKEN what they HAD.

Scripture does not present "continuing in a process OF salvation", it speaks of "continuing in the salvation that you HAVE." Look at how Philip2:12-13 was written: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose". Work TO BE saved? No; work BECAUSE we ARE savd, it is God who works THROUGH us --- we do not DO the work He does it through us.

The other side-of-the-coin is that "contionuing IN salvation is possible"; and "not-continuing-in-salvation is also possible." All of the warnings carry eternal consequences; real consequences. We are told to "examine ourselves to see if we are IN Christ (and Christ is IN us)" (2Cor13:5). Peter patiently admonishes us to "exhibit saved qualities, not to have forgotten former purification but be diligent to be certain of our calling and election that the GATES (eisodos) of Heaven be PROVIDED" (2:1:5-11). Peter does not mean "abundantly pfovided if you ARE diligent and less-abundantly provided if you are NOT diligent", Peter means "abundantly provided if you are diligent or NOT PROVIDED AT ALL if you are NOT!"

Your wording in your last sentence is correct --- every decision we make affects our "entering Heaven or not" --- but it is "abiding in Him, abiding in the salvation that He bought for us with His blood".

"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him." Col2:6

"Now, little children, ABIDE IN Him, SO THAT when He appears you may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame when He comes". 1Jn2:28

The "temptation passage", 1Cor10:13 --- is prefaced by verse 12: "Let he who thinks he stand take heed lest he fall" --- fall from what? Fall-from-steadfastness-but-STAY-SAVED? Fall-from-righteousness-but-REMAIN-SAVED? Fall-from-abiding-in-Him-to-abiding-in-sin-but-REMAIN-HEAVENBOUND?

FALL is FALL.

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This sure doesn't line up with Paul said about working out our salvation daily, or Christ being the author and finisher of out faith, finishing the race. Hope you don't trust your eternity to this.

Bob said:

First things first. When the Bible talks about being saved, it means when you die.

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Salvation is "having eternal life"; John wrintes in 1:5:11-13, "he who has Jesus, has eternal life." Not "will have someday", but has it now. Yet Peter says "the inheritance is reserved in Heaven for us, protected by the power of God through (our) faith." So "we are saved NOW", and "we have eternal life NOW"; but "we will not enter eternal life unless we continue in salvation until the end"...

The REALLY big problem with the entire debate on predestination of salvation is that we have completely misunderstood Paul's writings. Especially in the beginning of Ephesians. Calvinists believe that we are predestined to heaven or hell solely based on God's will. Arminians believe that we are predestined to heaven or hell based on God's foreknowledge from the beginning of time of how we would choose to or not to follow him during our lifetimes. But they both believe we are predestined. And that's where it all falls apart. We were never predestined to begin with. You can't prove scripturally that either side is wrong if you first believe we are predestined either to heaven or hell.

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"Predestined" is a word Scripture uses. But the understanding must be clear. First, "saving-faith" comes from our own hearts, not "gifted/instilled/unilaterally-imparted by God". Grace is directed GOD-TOWARDS-MAN, faith is directed MAN-TOWARDS-GOD. Realizing that, the apparently clear "predestined-before-time" passage of Eph1:4-5, when read in context with, say, 2Thess2:13 ("God has chosen you from the beginning ...THROUGH FAITH...") --- it becomes clear that JESUS was "predestined-before-time", and whoever believes in Him JOINS that predestined-plan.

Eph1:13 clearly states "the seal of the Spirit is affixed on our own belief".

100% CONDITIONED ON our belief is God's "predestining us to be Christlike", the clear message of Romans 8:29. The "proginosko-foreknew" conveys the reality of personal BELIEF.

Perfect harmony with: "He will present you before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT be moved away from the hope of the Gospel (not be moved away from JESUS)." Col1:23

And if you continue on, realizing in humility that you are weak and it is only through God's grace that he forgives you of all your sins you can be "assured" of your reward in heaven, as Paul was.

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If we are "in Christ", we are saved. If we "continue in Christ" then we "continue in salvation". Continuing is always a choice. We SIN --- clearly not God's will, God is resistible. After sinning, the same volition presents itself --- to sin AGAIN, or to REPENT.

I know that I have not proofed any of this with scripture here but as it is very late I will save that for another day.

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I have. Sadly, it is my experience that if one does not "quote the passage itself", no one will look up the verses...

This sure doesn't line up with Paul said about working out our salvation daily, or Christ being the author and finisher of out faith, finishing the race. Hope you don't trust your eternity to this.

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Jesus is not the "author" and "finisher" of our faith; Heb12:2 says "Jesus is the ARCHEGOS-PRINCE/LEADER and TELEIOTES-CHIEF-EXAMPLE of faith". Paul says "work out your salvation daily, for it is God who is at work IN you both to will and to work according to His good purpose". Why and how is God in us,Curt? Because and through our belief.

He who believes is saved; he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed (or has ceased to believed) in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 3:12-14 says Take care, brethren, lest there be an evil unbelieving heart (hardened by the deceitfulness of sin) to falling away from the living God"."

Heb6:11 says "We desire the SAME DILIGENCE in you, so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that you not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises".

What Paul says about "falling-from-salvation" in passages like Col1:23 & 2:8 & 1Tim4:1 and many others, perfectly reflects what John said in 1:2:26-29 & 2:1:7-9, what Peter said in 2:2:20-22 & 2:3:14-17. And what James said in 1:14-16 & 5:19-20. They all said the same thing...

Scripture does not present "continuing in a process OF salvation", it speaks of "continuing in the salvation that you HAVE."

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And if you don't continue in this salvation, "that you HAVE", will you still be justified?

The tense in this verse is "aorist"; the meaning is "PAST". When we were forgiven, we were washed-clean; we were justified, we were sanctified. PAST. How can "sanctification/justification/salvation" be an ongoing process when they happened through Jesus' name? Didn't by one offereing Jesus "perfect for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb10:14)?

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That is not all Scripture has to say:

"Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving [present tense] the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls." (1Pt. 1:8-9)

They are in the process of recieving.

"At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be [future tense] saved." (MT. 24:10-13)

Since Jesus is addressing His disciples "privately", and they believe in Him and are therefore saved, He is obviously assuming that if they don't stand firm they will not be saved. This verse makes no sense any other way.

So you see that Scripture does speak of salvation as a process. But that's not the point of my post.

The only time one needs to be "rejustified" or "resanctified" is if they have FORSAKEN what they HAD.

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When did Abraham forsake his faith? He was simply considered righteous because of his belief, then, some years later, was again considered righteous because of his works.

God Bless,
Mark

So you see that Scripture does speak of salvation as a process. But that's not the point of my post.

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Actually, both concepts are presented. "The Word of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor1:18 Yet, "being saved" does not exist in exclusion of "have-been-saved". It simply reflects continuing in salvation until the end...

And if you don't continue in this salvation, "that you HAVE", will you still be justified?

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No. I am confident that you and I will agree that salvation is by BELIEF. Not "mere belief", but belief that receives the indwelling Son and Spirit, belief that is obedient and humble and willing to submit and allow Him to work through us. Romans 5:18 says "justification CAME to all, in just the same way as condemnation CAME to all"; but 5:17 says "those who RECEIVE the abundnance of grace and the abundance of the gift of righteousness shall reign with Jesus" --- those who RECEIVE justification, BY BELIEF.

If BELIEF ends, then the received justification is no longer recevied, is it?

BTW, I don't think Abraham ever ceased to believe...

Ben johnson said:

"You WERE washed, you WERE sanctified, you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." 1Cor6:11

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And it does not say WERE saved, or even better WERE given eternal life. What this passage means is that before the sacrifice of Jesus all of us were condemned in our sins already. We had no hope, the only just reward for our sins was death. However, God loved us so much he sent his only son, Jesus to take our place and die for us therefore washing away our sins, sanctifying us anew and putting us back in the position of justified before God, a feat we were powerless to do for ourselves. At that point it was up to us to believe (put our trust) in him and accept his gift.

Ben johnson said:

The tense in this verse is "aorist"; the meaning is "PAST". When we were forgiven, we were washed-clean; we were justified, we were sanctified. PAST. How can "sanctification/justification/salvation" be an ongoing process when they happened through Jesus' name? Didn't by one offereing Jesus "perfect for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb10:14)? The only time one needs to be "rejustified" or "resanctified" is if they have FORSAKEN what they HAD.

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Scripture puts it in the past tense because Jesus did take away the sins of the world at one time, his death. But you're adding in salvation. Salvation comes later when you die if and only if you have come to understand God's great gift to you, and are truly thaknful in your heart, your mind, and your actions. Sanctification and justification, unlike salvation, are not ongoing processes. They happened once when Jesus died and no you never need to be rejustified or resanctified. If God decided to accept Jesus' sacrifice as washing, justification and sanctification that it will never not be acceptable to him. But it does not mean that once Jesus died for the sins of the world the world stopped sinning. (Hardly!)

Ben johnson said:

Scripture does not present "continuing in a process OF salvation", it speaks of "continuing in the salvation that you HAVE." Look at how Philip2:12-13 was written: "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD who is at work IN you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose". Work TO BE saved? No; work BECAUSE we ARE savd, it is God who works THROUGH us --- we do not DO the work He does it through us.

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Salvation is a two-party affair between a perfect immutable God and an imperfect ever-changing man. God in his infinite mercy has seen fit to bestow his grace upon us thereby alleviating us from the penalty of our sins, IF (big if) we will only follow and obey him. He knows we can never be perfect but if we truly humble ourselves and recognize that he is lord over all, this is what he desires. So scripture sometimes describes salvation from God's standpoint. The point of view that God's promise to us is never failing. That means that he will not change his promise to us. Many scriptures in the Bible that speak of God not forsaking us, or not losing a single one of us are meant to encourage us that God's will not break his promises to us. If you only continue to believe in him (biblically that means understanding he is God and putting your actions where your heart is) he will be there for you waiting for you at the end of your life welcoming you home.

Scripture also sometimes describes salvation from man's standpoint. The viewpoint that realizes that throughout a man's life he will never be able to perfectly obey God and his commandments. However the Bible admonishes us to never give up trying. For if we truly know what God expects of us and we slough off or shirk our duties we will have not believed (putting our actions where our heart is) and therefore have violated the only requirement from our end. This is why we are told to stay steadfast to the end (of our lives) and work out our salvation. It means that you need to have a heart for God at all times.

And by the way, do you see yourself as Calvinist or Arminian, or perhaps something else?

Ben johnson said:

Salvation is "having eternal life"; John wrintes in 1:5:11-13, "he who has Jesus, has eternal life." Not "will have someday", but has it now.

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Actually it doesn't say has it now. The author sets up a supposition first, "he who has Jesus..." and next is going to say what happens to the person who meets that criteria. The author infers that this suppostion will remain in place until the end of the person's life. Then, if the supposition is true, the outcome is described "(he) has eternal life." Meaning he who has Jesus in his heart and obeys his teachings until the end of his life will have eternal life. It is not said in the furutre tense on purpose for literary effect. Future tense can sometimes lend a feeling of probability but not certainty. Humans cannot tell the future so when we speak about what will happen in the future we understand that there is always the possibility of natural disaster or divine intervention that could prevent those future events from happening. If, however, you wanted to convey a stronger insistence on what you believe will happen in the future you can use a present tnese as the author does here. The author knows that the future events he is describing involve a promise from God. So he is saying regarding the possible future salvation of your soul and receiving of eternal life, if you hold up your end of the bargain ("he who has Jesus") God will absolutely, positively live up to his end ("has eternal life.")

This little quote is perfectly describing the dynamic of salvation. If imperfect man can just stay in Jesus perfect God will provide the eternal life he promised us.

Ben johnson said:

Yet Peter says "the inheritance is reserved in Heaven for us, protected by the power of God through (our) faith." So "we are saved NOW", and "we have eternal life NOW"; but "we will not enter eternal life unless we continue in salvation until the end"...

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No, and yes. God is reserving the inheritance for us. He won't accidentaly lose it or forget he promised it to us so from God's point of view we are saved, or will be saved when we die. But we are most definitely not saved now from man's point of view. Until we die we have many, many chances to mess up. We don't have eternal life until we die. What we do have is the unyielding, unbreakable promise of eternal life from God but it is a sacrilege to say we actually have it now. To say that is a presumption from lowly man that God will have to forgive us, no matter what our actions;a presumption I am not willing to make. And lastly, yes we will not enter eternal life unless we can continue in obeying God. He has already wiped our slate clean from the burdens of all of our past and future sins allowing us to be presented before him by Jesus. But if decide to stop following his commands when we are still on this earth we will have known the gift of God and will have THROWN IT AWAY! This is the one sin we are not forgiven for it is denying his forgiveness of all our other sins!

Ben johnson said:

"Predestined" is a word Scripture uses. But the understanding must be clear. First, "saving-faith" comes from our own hearts, not "gifted/instilled/unilaterally-imparted by God". Grace is directed GOD-TOWARDS-MAN, faith is directed MAN-TOWARDS-GOD. Realizing that, the apparently clear "predestined-before-time" passage of Eph1:4-5, when read in context with, say, 2Thess2:13 ("God has chosen you from the beginning ...THROUGH FAITH...") --- it becomes clear that JESUS was "predestined-before-time", and whoever believes in Him JOINS that predestined-plan.

Eph1:13 clearly states "the seal of the Spirit is affixed on our own belief".

100% CONDITIONED ON our belief is God's "predestining us to be Christlike", the clear message of Romans 8:29. The "proginosko-foreknew" conveys the reality of personal BELIEF.

Perfect harmony with: "He will present you before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT be moved away from the hope of the Gospel (not be moved away from JESUS)." Col1:23
If we are "in Christ", we are saved. If we "continue in Christ" then we "continue in salvation". Continuing is always a choice. We SIN --- clearly not God's will, God is resistible. After sinning, the same volition presents itself --- to sin AGAIN, or to REPENT.

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Ok so again, are you Calvinist or Arminian. It appears Arminian. And yes, predestined is a word that Paul uses. But I think the whole crux of the matter is what you believe Paul is saying about predestination in Eph 1.

Ben johnson said:

He who believes is saved; he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed (or has ceased to believed) in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Hebrews 3:12-14 says Take care, brethren, lest there be an evil unbelieving heart (hardened by the deceitfulness of sin) to falling away from the living God"."

Heb6:11 says "We desire the SAME DILIGENCE in you, so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that you not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises".

What Paul says about "falling-from-salvation" in passages like Col1:23 & 2:8 & 1Tim4:1 and many others, perfectly reflects what John said in 1:2:26-29 & 2:1:7-9, what Peter said in 2:2:20-22 & 2:3:14-17. And what James said in 1:14-16 & 5:19-20. They all said the same thing...

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Ok, you (or the Bible) couldn't be more right! My next thought was to raise the question of predestination again to see how it fits with your understanding. So many Christian theologians are dead-set on the doctrine of predestination as described by the reformists. But it materially changes how you view the question of salvation.

But instead I will go back to the original question: Can you loose (should be lose?) your salvation. The answer is no but wait, there's more!

No you can't lose your salvation. The Bible repeatedly tells us of God's unbreakable promises. But you aren't saved until you die. You can't enter into eternal life until your life here is finished. So between the time you become a believer until the time you die there is plenty of time for you to step off the path that leads to salvation, God's way, and choose your own path. The one that leads to separation from God. So while you were on the path to salvation and now are not, you cannot say that you were once saved and then lost.

Ben johnson said:

Actually, both concepts are presented.

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Yes they are. One is from man's standpoint and one is from God's

Ben johnson said:

Yet, "being saved" does not exist in exclusion of "have-been-saved".

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You're right, both God and man are involved.

Ben johnson said:

No. I am confident that you and I will agree that salvation is by BELIEF. Not "mere belief", but belief that receives the indwelling Son and Spirit, belief that is obedient and humble and willing to submit and allow Him to work through us.

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Yes!

Ben johnson said:

Romans 5:18 says "justification CAME to all, in just the same way as condemnation CAME to all"

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That's right, condemnation came to all because all of us are sinners and desesrve death. And the first part of God's plan for our salvation deals with God setting all those offensive sins aside, justifying all of us through his son our redeemer. The second part is our acceptance of his gift and our obedience to his commands.

Ben johnson said:

If BELIEF ends, then the received justification is no longer recevied, is it?

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Well, no you're wrong. The justification happened. God did it whether or not you think you receied it. God decide to receive it. He decided to count Jesus sacrifice as a worthy substitute to our punishment. So it is God who allowed the justification.

Wow, Bob! You certainly have enthusiasm!

Bob said:

We had no hope, the only just reward for our sins was death. However, God loved us so much he sent his only son, Jesus to take our place and die for us therefore washing away our sins, sanctifying us anew and putting us back in the position of justified before God, a feat we were powerless to do for ourselves. At that point it was up to us to believe (put our trust) in him and accept his gift.

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I would respectfully correct the sequence you assert --- we believe, and THEN we are washed/sanctified/justified. It is "calling on HIs name" in Acts 22:16 that washes them; it is by belief in 1Cor6:11 that they ceased sinfulness and became followers of Jesus...

Scripture also sometimes describes salvation from man's standpoint. The viewpoint that realizes that throughout a man's life he will never be able to perfectly obey God and his commandments. However the Bible admonishes us to never give up trying. For if we truly know what God expects of us and we slough off or shirk our duties we will have not believed (putting our actions where our heart is) and therefore have violated the only requirement from our end. This is why we are told to stay steadfast to the end (of our lives) and work out our salvation. It means that you need to have a heart for God at all times.

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Well said.

And by the way, do you see yourself as Calvinist or Arminian, or perhaps something else?

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People tell me I'm "something else"...

Actually it doesn't say has it now. The author sets up a supposition first, "he who has Jesus..." and next is going to say what happens to the person who meets that criteria. The author infers that this suppostion will remain in place until the end of the person's life. Then, if the supposition is true, the outcome is described "(he) has eternal life."

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Clearly we don't have "glorified bodies", nor do we "walk Heaven's streets". The point of Jesus' Gospel message is that "salvation is by GRACE, through BELIEF". Because we do not EARN salvation, because salvation is JESUS-IN-OUR-HEARTS (the indwelling Savior and indwelling Spirit), Christianity differs from all other religions in that "having the Son in one's heart means that we ARE saved WHEN we believe". Religions assert that "pleasing God is a scale of "brownie points" opposed by "demerits". If at the END, the "brownie points" exceed the "demerits", the person wins; Christianity says "he who HAS the Son, has the life --- you may KNOW you HAVE eternal life"...

But I think the whole crux of the matter is what you believe Paul is saying about predestination in Eph 1.

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Oh I think I said it OK. Because "SAVING-FAITH" is from US (not "instilled-by-God"), it is OUR OWN BELIEF that puts us into the "predestined plan of Jesus". Jesus was predestined, not us; when we BELIEVE, we JOIN His "chosen-before-the-world". 2Thess2:13 says "chosen from the beginning through ...FAITH." Our own faith, Bob; volition to believe or not. "with the HEART man believes"... "You became obedient FROM THE HEART to that teaching..." Rom10:10, 6:17

But instead I will go back to the original question: Can you loose (should be lose?) your salvation. The answer is no but wait, there's more!

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No, you cannot lose your salvation.

But you can FORFEIT your salvation by UNBELIEF. How else can passages like Heb3:12-14 & 4:1, and James 1:14-16 & 5:19-20 be understood? James uses "thanatos" in both instances as "death-n-Hell".

Well, no you're wrong. The justification happened. God did it whether or not you think you receied it. God decide to receive it. He decided to count Jesus sacrifice as a worthy substitute to our punishment. So it is God who allowed the justification.

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If we read Romans 5:11, we see that there is an exact equality between "came-condemnation", and "came-justification". But condemnation carries a CONDITION for one to BE condemned --- he must SIN. Roms 5:12 tells us that everone has MET that condition TO BE condemned.

Likewise, justification CAME to "all men", exactly as condemnation CAME to "all men" ("SO THEN condemnation, EVEN SO justification"). Justification also has a CONDITION for one to be justified --- verse 17 plainly says "the grace and gift of righteousness must be RECEIVED. There is no justification to those who WILL not believe/receive Jesus...

Ben johnson said:

Wow, Bob! You certainly have enthusiasm!

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Yeah, I have to admit I am excited about this.

Ben johnson said:

I would respectfully correct the sequence you assert --- we believe, and THEN we are washed/sanctified/justified. It is "calling on HIs name" in Acts 22:16 that washes them; it is by belief in 1Cor6:11 that they ceased sinfulness and became followers of Jesus...

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Hebrews chapter 9 addresses the order pretty well. All mankind has been placed in an elect status, much like we could have a president-elect after our next election if Kerry wins. Elect status indicates prepared for a place or position but not quite there yet.
We are elect (for salvation and not yet saved in the literal sense) because when we were still sinners, God sent Jesus to die for us, forgiving us our sins and washing us from condemning guilt in God's eyes once and for all. That means we have been forgiven for things that God didn't have to forgive us for.

"...He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." Heb 9:12 NASB


We're not saved because of this redemption. Because God is a holy god he abhors sin. By his redeeming us he has opened the path so that we could approach him and we would not be repulsive because of our sin. All we have to do is accept this gift of redemption that Jesus bought for us on the cross by obeying God. And if we do this until we die we will receive the promised salvation.

"For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives." Heb 9:16-17 NASB

Note that it says the covenant is fulfilled when we die. It's not super clear in English but in the greek the word for covenant had a little stronger meaning.

"9:16-17. In opening the new unit of thought, the writer employed a swift
semantic shift in which he treated the Greek word for "covenant" (diatheôke4)
in the sense of a will. While "covenants" and "wills" are not in all respects
identical, the author meant that in the last analysis the New Covenant is really a
testamentary disposition. Like human wills, all the arrangements are secured by
the testator and its beneficiaries need only accept its terms.
Treating the New Covenant in this way, the author argued that its force—like
that of all human wills—depends on the death of the one who made it. That is
when it takes effect. " The Bible Knowledge Commentary: New Testament

So we see that we are in a relationship with God where God has promised on his end that we can enter this salvation if we will accept his gift. And that the consummation of this covenant is not until the person dies. But the washinig away of sins happened once for all time on the cross.

"For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." Heb 9:24-28 NASB (emphasis added.)

So Jesus died once for all of our sins past and future. Also note that the author asserts that man is judged after he dies. Hence salvation is given at that time, not earlier.

You referred to Acts 22:16 "Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’ " NASB intending to show correct order. However, this passage is making an alusion (spelling?) not an exact instruction. The command 'and wash away your sins' shows the fallacy of trying to convert this to a direct command. Man cannot wash away his own sins no matter how many times he gets up and is baptized. Semantics you say? I agree. But in this case they work both ways. Here the author is commanding the subject to get up, and be baptized which is an outward act showing submission to God and acceptance of his gift for you. This submission shows that the subject is then accepting that God washed away his sins with Jesus' redmption on the cross. This passage does not mean that the subject is being washed away from his baptism.

Ben johnson said:

Clearly we don't have "glorified bodies", nor do we "walk Heaven's streets". The point of Jesus' Gospel message is that "salvation is by GRACE, through BELIEF". Because we do not EARN salvation, because salvation is JESUS-IN-OUR-HEARTS (the indwelling Savior and indwelling Spirit),

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No, salvation is the gift of eternal life from God.

Ben johnson said:

Christianity differs from all other religions in that "having the Son in one's heart means that we ARE saved WHEN we believe".

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Christianity differs from all other religions in many ways but it is incorrect to say we are saved when we beilieve. It is better to say we are on the path to salvation when we believe. Or we are salvation-elect.

Ben johnson said:

Religions assert that "pleasing God is a scale of "brownie points" opposed by "demerits". If at the END, the "brownie points" exceed the "demerits", the person wins; Christianity says "he who HAS the Son, has the life --- you may KNOW you HAVE eternal life"...

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Yes, Christianity is not a salvation-by-brownie-points religion. Mankind is utterly sinful and a holy just God must forgive us for no good reason for it to be possible for us to have salvation. And when "Christianity says "he who HAS the Son, has the life --- you may KNOW you HAVE eternal life" it means that he who has and holds onto the Son can know that God is unfailing in his promises and will provide for the salvation of our souls at the end of our Earthly life.

Ben johnson said:

Oh I think I said it OK. Because "SAVING-FAITH" is from US (not "instilled-by-God"), it is OUR OWN BELIEF that puts us into the "predestined plan of Jesus". Jesus was predestined, not us; when we BELIEVE, we JOIN His "chosen-before-the-world". 2Thess2:13 says "chosen from the beginning through ...FAITH." Our own faith, Bob; volition to believe or not.

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Yes faith is what we call our decision to believe in the word of God and enter into this covenant of salvation with him. Not that it makes a terrible amount of difference but I believe that even while Jesus was predestined that's not even what the author was talking about in Ephesians 1:4-5 and 11 when he used the word predestination.

Ben johnson said:

Likewise, justification CAME to "all men", exactly as condemnation CAME to "all men" ("SO THEN condemnation, EVEN SO justification"). Justification also has a CONDITION for one to be justified --- verse 17 plainly says "the grace and gift of righteousness must be RECEIVED. There is no justification to those who WILL not believe/receive Jesus...

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You're mixing justification with salvation. Justification, the wiping away of our already-condemned-where-we-stood status because of our sins by God did come to all men, unconditionally. Once we were justified by God, which we did not deserve, we could then choose to honor God's gift by giving ourselves over to him. This is the one condition you speak of but it is the condition for salvation.
Rom 5:8-10 says "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." NASB

To paraphrase: We were (past tense) justified (forgiven of our sins) by His blood (his action) and we shell be saved from the wrath of God (we shall receive eternal life) through him (through obedience to him, our action.)

It goes on to say: we were reconciled to God (our sins were wiped away so that God could deal with us without having to punish us for our sins) having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life (now that we have a chance, we can accept God's gift of eternal life if we walk with Jesus.)

Finally, we were never predestined to salvation or condemnation as the Calvinists and Arminians say. And we don't actually receive eternal life (salvation) until we die so we cannot lose eternal life per se while we are alive since we have not received it yet.

Bob said:

All mankind has been placed in an elect status, much like we could have a president-elect after our next election if Kerry wins. Elect status indicates prepared for a place or position but not quite there yet.

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All? I wonder if we're "jousting semantics" here. Jesus is the Savior TO all manking, but not FOR all mankind --- only for those who BELIEVE. This is the meaning of 1Tim4:10: "Jesus is the Savior of the world, MALISTA-CHIEFLY-ABOVE-ALL believers."

Let's go to the root of the issue --- place everything that Jesus said, all that Matthew and Mark and Luke and John, and Peter and Paul and James and Jude --- put it all in a pan and put it on your stove; boil it and boil it, reduce it until only ONE WORD remains. One word that completely and succinctly sums up "SALVATION", reflects eternity, describes Jesus' Gospel, describes our position and walk with Him --- one word.

What is that word?

i havent finished the whole thread, but i have seen a couple people post that you are become pure when you get saved and then you can lose that salvation/purity later. this presents a question. why not wait until the death bed then to be saved? that way you dont have time to lose your purity.

just for the record, i believe in eternal security and i have yet to see any any verses that, when read in context, show that we can lose salvation. of course, i also dont assume that anyone who goes to church, sings the hymn, etc. is a christian. the Bible speaks many times of apostates who come into and act like the believers, but over times, they show their true colors. that list that was give at the beginning is the longest list of verses taken out of context ive seen since looking at athiest.org. i went through the first 2/3 tonight, and i would have to say at least 75% was blatantly taken out of context.

Ben johnson said:

All? I wonder if we're "jousting semantics" here. Jesus is the Savior TO all manking, but not FOR all mankind --- only for those who BELIEVE. This is the meaning of 1Tim4:10: "Jesus is the Savior of the world, MALISTA-CHIEFLY-ABOVE-ALL believers."

Let's go to the root of the issue --- place everything that Jesus said, all that Matthew and Mark and Luke and John, and Peter and Paul and James and Jude --- put it all in a pan and put it on your stove; boil it and boil it, reduce it until only ONE WORD remains. One word that completely and succinctly sums up "SALVATION", reflects eternity, describes Jesus' Gospel, describes our position and walk with Him --- one word.

What is that word?

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GRACE!

No, 'fraid not, Fru; it's "grace through faith".

The one word that defines salvation, sums up everything, is FELLOWSHIP. 1Jn1:3,6-7.

That's why it grieves me so much to hear people say, "you can be in saved
RELATIONSHIP but not FELLOWSHIP with Him". No, you can't.

Born-again is Jesus INDWELLING us; and the Spirit indwelling us. True fellowship between submitted creature and omnipotent Creator.

We are "IN CHRIST", or not. There is no "in between"..

CDN said:

just for the record, i believe in eternal security and i have yet to see any any verses that, when read in context, show that we can lose salvation.

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I can give you dozens --- where do you want to begin?

James 5:19-20 --- are they "UNSAVED beloved broethren"? Do they "wander but not lose salvation"? Or is "thanatos-death not REALLY spiritual death"? James really speaks of "losing salvation". Just as he does in 1:14-16.

Peter speaks of losing salvation in 2:2:20-22, and again in 2:3:14-17.

Paul says "we can fall just as Eve fell!" in 2Cor11:3 In 1Cor10:13, "temptation", what do you think verse 12 means "FALL FROM"???

Heb12 --- fall-from-grace verse 15, refuse God's discipline and be "illegitimate children" verse 8-9, verse 15 "don't refuse to obey God!"

Colossians 1:23, 2:8, speak of "take care not to fall".

2Pet1:5-11 warns us to "be diligent SO THAT we not "become wretched", SO THAT "the gates of Heaven be provided" --- verse 9 speaks about one who HAS LOST SALVATOIN.\

1Jn2:26-29 speaks of "falling-from-salvaiton". So does 2Jn1:7-9.

These are only a FEW; I can easily give you more. Many more...