can I ask why do presyterians etc think baptism is sprinkling?

[Radagast]

I always thought baptism was being dunked in the water, a full immersion. I wasn't taught this but this is what it says in the Bible. Jesus went to the river Jordan, and came up out of the water. I don't think you can be sprinkled in a river?! Otherwise why don't we just stand in the rain and be 'baptised?'

I can't imagine which Presbyterians would say that. Standard Presbyterian belief would be that sprinkling and immersion are both OK.

Westminster Confession of Faith: Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.

For baptism of infants, sprinkling is more appropriate. In general, immersion has the benefit of "being buried with Christ" symbolism, while pouring or sprinkling has a "washing" symbolism. The different methods all have Old Testament parallels.

The baptism in Acts 16:33 probably wasn't by immersion, by the way.

 

[Radagast]

BTW, for those saying that their faiths "sprinkle", could you please describe exactly what you mean by that? Many people have said that the Catholic Church "sprinkles" also, when in fact, we do no such thing, but simply pour water over the forehead and over the top of the head of babies, and others that can't be submerged. Thanks.

In practice, what Catholics do looks very much like what Presbyterians do when the "sprinkle." The only real difference, AFAIK, is that Catholics insist that there be enough water to wet the skin.

 

[Goodbook]

ok thanks..I don't mean to imply that presybterians don't accept immersion, just that I didn't really understand the scriptural significance of sprinkling, as the presbyterian pastor only mentioned the blood sprinkling on the mercy seat, I don't get how that corresponds with baptism.

I'm sure presbyterians would baptise by immersion if they had enough candidates wanting it, probably they take them to a river or pool because there's no anywhere in church to do it. I think it's a bit sad though for those of us not baptised as infants, I don't think they realise that not all of us come to faith being raised in christian families. There is a danger for any church to think of themselves as only elect and not realise Jesus wants to bring in sheep from outside the fold.

 

[bbbbbbb]

ok thanks..I don't mean to imply that presybterians don't accept immersion, just that I didn't really understand the scriptural significance of sprinkling, as the presbyterian pastor only mentioned the blood sprinkling on the mercy seat, I don't get how that corresponds with baptism.

I'm sure presbyterians would baptise by immersion if they had enough candidates wanting it, probably they take them to a river or pool because there's no anywhere in church to do it. I think it's a bit sad though for those of us not baptised as infants, I don't think they realise that not all of us come to faith being raised in christian families. There is a danger for any church to think of themselves as only elect and not realise Jesus wants to bring in sheep from outside the fold.

In my years as a Presbyterian the very idea of baptism by immersion was never mentioned. Assuredly, if there had been adult converts who had not been previously baptized, they would have been sprinkled at the front of the sanctuary from the baptismal font.

As it was, my church never had to deal with that problem because all the adult members that joined the church transferred their memberships from other churches, having been baptized as infants in those churches.

 

[Radagast]

the presbyterian pastor only mentioned the blood sprinkling on the mercy seat, I don't get how that corresponds with baptism.

Presbyterians often refer to the ritual washings described in e.g. Mark 7:4 or Hebrews 9:10 as precedent for cleansing by sprinkling, as well as the sprinkling with blood in Hebrews 9:13 and Hebrews 9:21. See here and here for good discussions.

I'm sure presbyterians would baptise by immersion if they had enough candidates wanting it, probably they take them to a river or pool because there's no anywhere in church to do it.

I believe that happens in churches which get many adult converts.

From a pastor's point of view, immersion of a new convert invites a "buried with Christ and raised to a new life" sermon, and pouring or sprinkling invites a "washed in the blood of the Lamb" sermon.

I don't think they realise that not all of us come to faith being raised in christian families.

Oh, I think they realise that. But even so, in Australia and NZ, many people are baptised in infancy (and Presbyterians will not re-baptise people when they become Christian, because God's promises do not need to be made again).

I've very rarely seen adult baptisms in Presbyterian churches... mostly with people born overseas.

 

[Radagast]

In my years as a Presbyterian the very idea of baptism by immersion was never mentioned.

It's there in the WCF, and in the fine print of Church Order for most US Presbyterian groups.

 

[Radagast]

Yet I've never seen an adult get sprinkled

I have. Three handfuls of water from the baptismal font over their head.

 

[Radagast]

the presbyterian pastor

When you say "Presbyterian," do you mean the Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand, or one of the smaller, more conservative, groups?

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

In my years as a Presbyterian the very idea of baptism by immersion was never mentioned.

As I said its not that Presbyterians are against immersion. Its just not necessary, why waste the water. I have never met a Presbyterian Minister who has said he would be unwilling to do a immersion baptism for someone who has never been baptized in another church before, given a proper method of delivery can be found.

 

[ptomwebster]

First, the Bible does NOT say that Jesus was immersed. The verse you refer to says that after the baptism he came up from the water, that is to say he left the river and walked up the banks, just as your kids would do if you called them in for dinner and said "Time to get out of the water." That wouldn't be to say that they were at that moment under the water, would it?

Second, the answer that was given by this Presbyterian minister is strange. Most Christians are baptised by a pouring of water, but to insist upon sprinkling and only sprinkling--and with that rationale for it--can't be considered typical of Pressbyterians or anything. I've never hear of it before.

Many Denominations sprinkle or pour the water when baptizing a person.

Someday look up the meaning of the word "baptize" in Greek.

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet) ; used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten, or (by implication) to stain (as with dye) : - dip.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Ptomwebster the greek word has been looked here on a previous page. And unless you are consistent and regularly throw your furniture in the swimming pool then the idea the Greek word for baptism is always immersion is blasted out of the water.

 

[ptomwebster]

Ptomwebster it has been looked here on a previous page. And unless you are consistent and regularly throw your furniture in the swimming pool then the idea the Greek word for baptism is always immersion is blasted out of the water.

I'm not sure you thought you were saying, but the word "baptō" still means "fully wet." No idea what that has to do with your or my furniture. Use a squirt gun for all I care, it does not change the meaning of the Greek word.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

The same word "baptō" is also used in the following verse.
"And from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, the washing of cups, pots, brazen vessels, and of tables." - Mark 7:4

What I am getting at it is clear that the word does not always mean immersion as some consider it.

 

[Radagast]

Many Denominations sprinkle or pour the water when baptizing a person.

Someday look up the meaning of the word "baptize" in Greek.

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet) ; used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten, or (by implication) to stain (as with dye) : - dip.

I don't know where you looked up those meanings, but they're wrong. And the two words are different. The word βαπτίζω (click on the link) means:

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

The first two meanings are relevant to baptism, and several ceremonial "baptisms" in the NT involve sprinkling

 

[ptomwebster]

The same word "baptō" is also used in the following verse.
"And from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, the washing of cups, pots, brazen vessels, and of tables." - Mark 7:4

What I am getting at it is clear that the word does not always mean immersion as some consider it.

The next time you eat at a restaurant look at your dishes, would you rather they had been immersed in water or have had a little water sprinkled on them? Do you want the cooks to wash their hands by immersing them in water after using the toilet or sprinkle them? The sign on the restaurant bathroom wall does not say take a bath before returning to work, it says “wash your hands.” You eat anywhere you want, I want my cook immersing this hands when he return from the “sprinkle room.”

 

[Radagast]

And unless you are consistent and regularly throw your furniture in the swimming pool then the idea the Greek word for baptism is always immersion is blasted out of the water.

Good point.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

But they do not immerse there hands. They have water poured on them.

 

[ptomwebster]

I don't know where you looked up those meanings, but they're wrong. And the two words are different. The word βαπτίζω (click on the link) means:

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)

2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe

3) to overwhelm

The first two meanings are relevant to baptism, and several ceremonial "baptisms" in the NT involve sprinkling

Do you know what a prime root word is in Greek? βάπτω , baptō is the prime root of the word βαπτίζω , baptizō. βαπτίζω comes from the primary verb βάπτω .

 

[ptomwebster]

But they do not immerse there hands. They have water poured on them.

Remind me not to eat when you do the cooking.

 

[Nova Scotian Boy]

Don't worry I'm not inviting you over for dinner.