Can I ask a question about sin and baptism?

thereselittleflower · Feb 7, 2004

There is a discussion of the Catholic concept of original sin and the effects of baptism.

It came up that the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in Original Sin . . so the question naturally came up "then why do they baptize infants?"

So I thought I would bring the question here to get your input . .

What is the purpose of infant baptism in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Peace in Him!

MariaRegina · Feb 7, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
There is a discussion of the Catholic concept of original sin and the effects of baptism.

It came up that the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in Original Sin . . so the question naturally came up "then why do they baptize infants?"

So I thought I would bring the question here to get your input . .

What is the purpose of infant baptism in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Another hot subject! Please spare us! We are trying to prepare for Great Lent.

Infants are baptized in the Orthodox Church for the remission of sin. Now you may say, what sins? they haven't reached the age of reason!

Well, let me tell you, Orthodox Priests sometimes hear the confessions of three year old brats who knew perfectly well that they did something wrong.

One Orthodox Priest told me that even infants can commit sins -- especially when the mom tells them to be quiet and they scream even louder. Don't be fooled, these babies are smarter than you think. Especially those in the terrible twos.

P.S. I speak from experience, as a mom and when I was a mischevious youngster. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner.

thereselittleflower · Feb 7, 2004

chanter said:
Another hot subject! Please spare us! We are trying to prepare for Great Lent.

Infants are baptized in the Orthodox Church for the remission of sin. Now you may say, what sins? they haven't reached the age of reason!

Well, let me tell you, Orthodox Priests sometimes hear the confessions of three year old brats who knew perfectly well that they did something wrong.

One Orthodox Priest told me that even infants can commit sins -- especially when the mom tells them to be quiet and they scream even louder. Don't be fooled, these babies are smarter than you think. Especially those in the terrible twos.

P.S. I speak from experience, as a mom and when I was a mischevious youngster. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner.

Hi Chantar

LOL

I gueess my question wasn't geared towards the terrible twos, or such, but about infant baptism . .done in the first few months when a baby has no way of knowing right from wrong . . they have not yet committed sin . .

Why baptize?

Peace in Him!

Matrona · Feb 7, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
Hi Chantar

LOL

I gueess my question wasn't geared towards the terrible twos, or such, but about infant baptism . .done in the first few months when a baby has no way of knowing right from wrong . . they have not yet committed sin . .

Why baptize?

When an infant is baptised, she has already died to the old nature and been resurrected in Christ. She learns her faith by being raised in it by her parents and by having been able to partake of the Body and Blood of Christ for as long as she can remember. As long as she has been cognizant, she has been a member of the Body of Christ. As such, when she's older and becomes aware of the devil's ways, she's more likely to eventually stay in the faith she has known since her earliest days.

MariaRegina · Feb 7, 2004

Holy Baptism, Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion are the three sacraments of initiation into the Christian life. With these three sacraments a person (infant, child or adult) becomes reborn by the Holy Waters of Baptism and then purified, illuminated and sanctified by the Holy Mysteries of Chrismation and Holy Communion.

Only baptized and chrismated people can receive the Holy Eucharist through which we are deified through the process of theosis. Indeed without these Holy Mysteries it is almost impossible to be saved. Why deny a baby his own salvation?

I have noticed that babies in the Orthodox church cry less than those in the Latin (Roman) Catholic Churches -- with the exception of Eastern Catholic Churches. Children at very early ages do feel deprived when they are not given Holy Communion -- they are not dumb creatures but truly humans.

It really is a shame that the Latin Catholics do not communicate their babies. Why don't they?

MariaRegina · Feb 7, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
Hi Chantar

LOL

I gueess my question wasn't geared towards the terrible twos, or such, but about infant baptism . .done in the first few months when a baby has no way of knowing right from wrong . . they have not yet committed sin . .

Why baptize?

Dear ThereseLittleFlower:

In the Orthodox Church, we are taught that there are different ways of sinning: deliberately and indeliberately, known and unknown, by thought, word, and deed.

As a Linguist, we are taught that language is innate and part of a baby even though he cannot express himself verbally because his larynx hasn't yet descended. That is why the baby's cry is very distinctive. He can still think. Are you going to tell me when Mom withdraws the nipple, and the baby turns blue in the face and screams at the top of his lungs because he wants more, that he doesn't know what he is doing? Sure he does -- he's very self-centered at that age and knows that if he cries enough, then dear old Mom will do anything to shut him up. This is sin -- not serious sin, but sin nevertheless. -- per my priest.

Yours in Christ-God,
Elizabeth

Orthodox Andrew · Feb 7, 2004

I thought people could not sin until they hit a certain age? I'm pretty sure that the Church teaches babies can not sin?

Orthodox Andrew · Feb 7, 2004

Anybody have any links?

MariaRegina · Feb 7, 2004

Andreas said:
I thought people could not sin until they hit a certain age? I'm pretty sure that the Church teaches babies can not sin?

I think you have been reading the Catholic Catechism.

NO, Andreas. The first sins we commit are thoughts. And babies have angry thoughts when denied food, clothing (wet diapers are no fun) and shelter (exposure to cold or heat). As a mom, let me tell you, they can be unreasonable at times.

There are children who have reached the age of reason at two years of age. My dad did, and so did I. It wasn't all the time, it was a gradual process, but I did know when I was doing something I shouldn't have. Do you think a little one is going to volunteer a mistake to get spanked? No way. They hide just like Adam and Eve did. Human nature doesn't change.

Orthodox Priests do hear the confessions of babies as young as three (perhaps younger) -- it all depends on the parents. All my priests have told me this. In fact, one Priest went to Holy Confession when he was four years of age -- that is one reason why he is a priest today.

Hope this helps.

Orthodox Andrew · Feb 7, 2004

chanter said:
NO, Andreas. The first sins we commit are thoughts. And babies have angry thoughts when denied food, clothing (wet diapers are no fun) and shelter (exposure to cold or heat). As a mom, let me tell you, they can be unreasonable at times.

There are children who have reached the age of reason at two years of age. My dad did, and so did I. It wasn't all the time, it was a gradual process, but I did know when I was doing something I shouldn't have. Do you think a little one is going to volunteer a mistake to get spanked? No way. They hide just like Adam and Eve did. Human nature doesn't change.

Orthodox Priests do hear the confessions of babies as young as three (perhaps younger) -- it all depends on the parents.

Hope this helps.

Okay. So how does a 3 year old confess?

Matrona · Feb 7, 2004

chanter said:
I have noticed that babies in the Orthodox church cry less than those in the Latin (Roman) Catholic Churches -- with the exception of Eastern Catholic Churches. Children at very early ages do feel deprived when they are not given Holy Communion -- they are not dumb creatures but truly humans.

I remember, when we had a family with a small baby attending our parish, the baby would scream and scream while it was the choir singing, but when our priest chanted, she would be silent. (Although she did babble during the homily, my personal theory was that it was baby language for "Testify!" or "Alleluia!", LOL. )

Photini · Feb 7, 2004

Matrona said:
I remember, when we had a family with a small baby attending our parish, the baby would scream and scream while it was the choir singing, but when our priest chanted, she would be silent. (Although she did babble during the homily, my personal theory was that it was baby language for "Testify!" or "Alleluia!", LOL. )

My sister's baby is restless until the priest comes out from the altar...then he sits all big-eyed and quietly...until Father goes back into the altar. At 18 months, he already venerates the Icons...he'll even kiss the Icon stand knowing that the Icon is on top of it.

MariaRegina · Feb 7, 2004

Matrona said:
I remember, when we had a family with a small baby attending our parish, the baby would scream and scream while it was the choir singing, but when our priest chanted, she would be silent. (Although she did babble during the homily, my personal theory was that it was baby language for "Testify!" or "Alleluia!", LOL. )

The priest's baby would cry infrequently when the choir sang (too many voices and too confusing for babies) but would be silent whenever she heard her dad or a male voice. IN fact, sometimes she would sing with her dad when she got older.

Matrona · Feb 7, 2004

Photini said:
My sister's baby is restless until the priest comes out from the altar...then he sits all big-eyed and quietly...until Father goes back into the altar. At 18 months, he already venerates the Icons...he'll even kiss the Icon stand knowing that the Icon is on top of it.

That is so adorable!

The baby girl I mentioned before is now walking and her family came for a visit recently. During the liturgy she toddled up to the bishop's throne, which has a cross on the side. She gave the cross a big kiss, then ran back to her mom.

Her older brother did something cute once, too. Before anyone else could do anything, he stood on a chair and pulled an icon of Christ off the wall. He yelled, "Mommy, is this Jesus?" She told him it was. He gave the icon a kiss on the nimbus and carefully put it back on the wall--carefully for a three-year-old, anyway.

MariaRegina · Feb 7, 2004

Andreas said:
Okay. So how does a 3 year old confess?

The parents take the child to the priest, who then goes up to the iconostasis with the child and points to the Icon of Christ. Then the priest gently tells the child that anything that he has done wrong he should tell Christ and the Priest and not hold anything back. He further reassures the child that he will be forgiven and his sins forgotten. The child knows when he has done something wrong, confesses his sins, listens to the advice of the Priest, and bows his head to receive absolution.

A couple of years ago, I saw a three year old chubby girl go to Holy Confession. She was willing to do so along with the 6 and 7 year old students who likewise confessed on Lazarus Saturday, which is the normal time to hear First Confessions in the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Andrew · Feb 7, 2004

chanter said:
The parents take the child to the priest, who then goes up to the iconostasis with the child and points to the Icon of Christ. Then the priest gently tells the child that anything that he has done wrong he should tell Christ and the Priest and not hold anything back. He further reassures the child that he will be forgiven and his sins forgotten. The child knows when he has done something wrong, listens to the advice of the Priest and bows his head to receive absolution.

A couple of years ago, I saw a three year old chubby girl go to Holy Confession. She was willing to do so along with the 6 and 7 year old students who likewise confessed on Lazarus Saturday, which is the normal time to hear First Confessions in the Orthodox Church.

Very interesting, thanks! I had never known anything about this.

thereselittleflower · Feb 8, 2004

Hi Chanter . . .

so the Orthodox teach that even babies sin, so when baptized, they are being cleansed of actual sin . .

Right?

Peace in Him!

MariaRegina · Feb 8, 2004

Dear ThereseLittleFlower:

The Holy Orthodox Church teaches that when a person (child or adult) is baptized, chrismated and communicated, they are purified, illuminated and sanctified (deified).

If the child or adult has committed any personal sins, even unknown or indeliberate sins by thought, word, or deed, then yes, he is cleansed of those sins.

Have you studied St. Basil the Great and his family? His whole family was canonized. All his brothers and sisters, his mom and his dad are Holy Saints. This is what we are called to do, to raise our family so that we all become saints. This is why it is so important to take the infant to receive Holy Communion, so they have no memory of ever being denied Holy Communion.

In Holy Baptism, we put on Christ. We become Christ to all we meet. Through Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion, we become a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. It is by receiving His Precious Body and Blood, that we become a member of His Body, the Church, unto Life Everlasting.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

thereselittleflower · Feb 8, 2004

chanter said:
Dear ThereseLittleFlower:

The Holy Orthodox Church teaches that when a person (child or adult) is baptized, chrismated and communicated, they are purified, illuminated and sanctified (deified).

If the child or adult has committed any personal sins, even unknown or indeliberate sins by thought, word, or deed, then yes, he is cleansed of those sins.

Have you studied St. Basil the Great and his family? His whole family was canonized. All his brothers and sisters, his mom and his dad are Holy Saints. This is what we are called to do, to raise our family so that we all become saints. This is why it is so important to take the infant to receive Holy Communion, so they have no memory of ever being denied Holy Communion.

In Holy Baptism, we put on Christ. We become Christ to all we meet. Through Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion, we become a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. It is by receiving His Precious Body and Blood, that we become a member of His Body, the Church, unto Life Everlasting.

Yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

Hi Chanter . . I am alittle confused, and I did not think this was an issue before . . but it seems you are saying above, that a person does not become a member of the Mystical Body of Christ unitl they receive Holy Chrismation and Communion . . . am i understnding you right? That when one is Baptized they are not yet become a member of teh Mystical Body of Christ?

This seems to say the contrayr:

As was mentioned above, the Church of Christ is the Mystical Body of Christ, the Head and Chief Cornerstone of which is Our Savior Jesus Christ (EPH. 1:22; 2:20-22; 4:15, 5:23: COL. 1:18; 1 C0R. 3:11; MATT. 21:42). All who acknowledge their faith in Him, and who through the Holy Sacrament of Baptism enter into the life of rebirth in Christ, and are joined together in the Body of Christs Church, are members of the Church (EPH. 1:23; 4:16; 1 COR. 12:27; C0L. 2:17, 19). The life of the Church is the continuation of the Incarnate Life of Christ in His Faithful. After fulfilling the Mystery of our salvation, Our Saviour ascended into Heaven, but He remains perpetually within the Mystical Body of His Church in His Divine, Life-giving and all-regenerating Entity.

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/woronen_what_is_orthodoxy.htm

did I misunderstand you or is there disagreement with the above?

Peace in Him!

Matrona · Feb 8, 2004

chanter said:
In Holy Baptism, we put on Christ. We become Christ to all we meet. Through Holy Chrismation and Holy Communion, we become a member of the Mystical Body of Christ. It is by receiving His Precious Body and Blood, that we become a member of His Body, the Church, unto Life Everlasting.

Wonderful post, Chanter!

Therese, I think what Chanter meant is that baptized children are members of the Body of Christ--and that, by virtue of their being members of the Body of Christ, it is wrong to deny them chrismation and communion (or to deny that they are indeed members of the Body of Christ) because they haven't reached some arbitrary "age of reason".

Can I ask a question about sin and baptism?

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