Can God be Separate From the Bible?

[aiki]

People tend to form their own core beliefs in terms of what is morally right and wrong, and as all people are biased, so are individual judgements of morality. This is where it's important for a shared moral code or judgement of what is sin in a community, like the Bible.

Morality that transcends individuals and societies is, it seems to me, pretty evident. We all agree - whatever time and culture we might be in - that some things really are morally wrong and others morally right. For instance, we would all (sociopaths excepted) agree that torturing babies for fun is morally wrong. We would all say the same thing about rape, and murder, and theft. Even those who contravene these things we all know are wrong, find themselves objecting just as strongly as the rest of us when they are the victim of the evil act of another person. That there is a universal and innate moral sense that we all possess, then, is not a particularly controversial idea. What is problematic, however, is how to account for this innate Moral Law we all have. The Christian simply responds to the question of where our innate sense of objective moral values and duties originates by saying, "A Moral Law requires a Moral Law Giver, who is God." But a person who has ruled God out of the picture cannot reasonably account for why there are moral "oughts" and "ought nots." All they can talk about are moral preferences. Without God, they have no objective ground from which to say, "You shouldn't do that." In a godless universe, speaking of morality in terms of objective "right" and "wrong," is impossible. Why? Well, let's say you and I are discussing Antarctica. How do we judge whether or not the things we are saying about it are true? If I say Antarctica is full of trees and lakes and is teeming with wildlife and you say its a frozen, windswept, and snowy wasteland who is speaking more truly? Who is closer to the truth? Well, you are, of course. But how do we know this? Because there is a real thing, existing independent of either of us, called Antarctica by which we can assess the claims we are making about it. This is how things work concerning morality, too. We can only say, "This is morally true, it is morally right," if we have a real, objective, fixed moral Reality against which to assess and establish the truth, the reality, of our moral claims. For the Christian, this fixed moral reality is God. For the atheist/naturalist there is no fixed moral point; nothing is really, objectively immoral, only socially disadvantageous or unfashionable.


Selah.

 

[Serving Zion]

I might shoot some rapid fire questions at you that have really simple answers, please forgive how little I know so far. So do you believe that the words of the Bible are direct from God and that we can trust it as true to His message and hopes for us? Many, many countless religions have their own sacred texts, be they from God or another perceived deity they worship. I find it hard to trust that a text written by men can be 100% correct, though of course I could hardly ask God to come down and pen a manifesto for us by hand! Looking back on what I've just written, I think it's growing more obvious that my weakness in my relationship with religion is difficulty trusting, I'll have to work on that.



Growing up with a Jewish family was certainly how I learned about God, if not Jesus and more Christian specific beliefs! And there are many other religions that worship our single God beyond that. Thought the Bible is powerful and has huge influence, I'm not sure it is the only road for people to find God.



You make a lot of sense, especially in the first part of your reply and I think further study of the Bible will help me think further about this. My inner moral struggles are what you might expect from a young girl in a very liberal atmosphere. I've seen very loving and genuine relationships between same sex partners and I have trouble believing that God would disapprove of love like that that brings true happiness to those good people involved in them. I also grapple with the idea that sinners and nonChristians are slated for eternity in hell after death. There are many people that simply never are exposed to God and so never even have the opportunity to find him. There are some who are forced into sin. Is it justice for these people to be punished? Does God think it is? I read something on another post here saying that maybe our conception of hell is incorrect, and that for those I mentioned death may truly be the end of their consciousness instead of torment and that seems much truer to God's message of forgiveness..?

Your thoughts concerning these questions demonstrate a heart that loves righteousness and justice, the sort of heart who when you enter relationship with Him, you will certainly love Him fully. Yet the risk you run by focusing on these questions, is that these beliefs about the life hereafter have not been validated by anyone who will tell you all about it, only a such person will tell you all about their own personal beliefs. So to draw our beliefs about the afterlife requires us to make critical assumptions that are built on long heritage of critical assumptions, all originating without any evidence of the life hereafter to begin with.

One thing only that we can be certain of, is that Jesus lives. We know this because He was witnessed by those who had personally known Him before His crucifixion, and many people since have come to know Him by faith, recognising Him based upon the record of His person revealed in the scriptures.

One verse that comes to mind for your search at this time, is Matthew 22:32 - "He is the God of the living, not the God of the dead".

Jesus also spoke in John 10:16 of including sheep of other folds, who will follow Him. I have always read that to describe those sorts of people who love the truth so much, that are just as you describe here, disadvantaged by not having received the opportunity to really hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus does not have in His heart, to reject such people because their circumstances have brought them to an inaccurate knowledge of the truth of the Christian gospel, because in fairness, those very people will accept it given the opportunity. Not everybody does though.

You also should keep in mind that Christianity was never meant to be a replacement for Judaism, but the fulfillment of it. Romans 11:18-24 explains that God's commitment to the Jewish people was never intended to be dissolved, but rather that God's faithfulness will eventually bring them back to a lasting, faithful covenant with Him as is indicated by the prophets of Old Testament.

See too Matthew 8:5-11.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There are limitless facets of God that I am sure transcend the Bible but , at the same time, one can not be separate from the other because he is the word, the Bible....John 1:1 . Also , Jesus said: Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined'.
Jesus is the word, the Bible, Jesus is God, they can't be separated.

The Word, in John 1:1, is not the Bible. What is translated here as "Word" is the Greek Logos. Hellenistic thought had a long history, in the various philosophical systems going back hundreds of years before Christ, concerning how the universe operates. The philosopher Heraclitus contended that "all was change", this was in contrast to Parmenides who said "all was sameness"; but for Heraclitus if all things were in a state of constant change and flux, what kept the entire cosmic order together? It was the Logos, the innate reason or logic that held all things together. Additionally, the Logos was fundamental to the ancient Stoics, the Logos was the underlying reason, the logic, the power that held all things together. Then there was the Jewish Platonic philosopher, Philo of Alexandria; Philo sought to bridge the gap between Jewish thought and Greek thought, and for Philo the Logos was in some sense identified with the figure of Wisdom as found in Jewish Scripture and thought; Philo took the idea of Divine Wisdom and the idea of the Logos as being with God from the very beginning and were instrumental in how the universe came to be--how God made the universe.

John, in his Gospel, is almost certainly familiar with the Logos tradition here, for John he intends to identify the Logos--the very reason and power that holds all things together--with Jesus Christ. Jesus is the very Logos made flesh, the Logos who is at once "with God" and "is God" in the very beginning, "through whom all things came to be".

This is why the ancient Christian Church referred to Christ as the Word and Wisdom of God.

Jesus is not the Bible.
And the Bible is not God.

Rather, Jesus is the Word, the Logos, and the Logos is God--and so Christ is God. He is the eternal Son and Word of the Father made flesh; He is God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten not made; of the same substance with the Father.

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages*, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us human beings, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made human; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father, from thence He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end." - The Nicene Creed


*meaning eternally begotten, begotten not in time but outside of time.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Born Again2004]

I am not too sure what your argument is here other than a disagreement who/what God is!

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages*, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us human beings, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made human; He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father, from thence He shall come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end." - The Nicene Creed

So, I believe this too !?

What is translated here as "Word" is the Greek Logos.

Lo·gos
ˈlōˌɡōs,-ˌɡäs/
The Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order, identified in the Gospel of John with the second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus Christ. Your identifying Logos has nothing to do with what I said, except is a part of it and supports it!

Jesus is not the Bible.
And the Bible is not God

God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, God's word and the Bible all existed before time and the foundation. Again, in Colossians 1:17
We are reminded that Jesus existed before time, therefore God existed before time. If they existed before time, certainly they are All Powerful and what they "handed" down to man in form of the word or the Bible existed before time as well....on this we will just have to agree to disagree! But, I politely have no rebuttal to what you are trying to say, except this...I would, in all love and respect, say you can't put limits on a limitless God!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would, in all love and respect, say you can't put limits on a limitless God!

So if I said that my can of Mountain Dew is God, would you agree because you can't put limits on a limitless God?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Razare]

This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.

I came out of another religion to Christianity. I had the same concerns, but Jesus was my lord. And God used his Holy Spirit to convince me scripture was sound and God's word.

Then in retrospect, it started making more and more sense.

Most any experience of God I had ever had, could be tied back into the Bible directly.

I think it's a question worth asking, and people who just dismiss it offhandedly without being convinced are probably just afraid it's not true or something. But then there are those who know it's true, and it's different when we have that perspective.

 

[Born Again2004]

So if I said that my can of Mountain Dew is God, would you agree because you can't put limits on a limitless God?

No offense but that is a secular commit, totally out of context and an insult to the Bible and God!

 

[ViaCrucis]

No offense but that is a secular commit, totally out of context and an insult to the Bible and God!

I'm not trying to argue, just making a point. By saying that the Bible is God one is saying something that is both idolatrous and blasphemous, no different than if I were to call my can of soda God.

We call the Bible God's word not because it's the eternal Word (only Jesus is the eternal Word), we call the Bible God's word because through Scripture we hear God, we hear God in His commandments, and we hear God in His Gospel promises; most importantly we call the Bible God's word because we believe in its pages Christ Himself is spoken to us.

But to suggest or to call the Bible God is absolutely idolatrous. We don't worship a book, we worship God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Born Again2004]

But to suggest or to call the Bible God is absolutely idolatrous. We don't worship a book, we worship God.

You most definitely have a right to your opinion, as I do mine, whether right or wrong! O.K., so you make a point but you are approaching calling me an Idolater. In lieu of the Bible categorizing God as the word and the word is God breathed and alive, I have the right to say they are the same thing....maybe I should have said, that the word is an exact representation of God....but to the point of calling me an unrighteous name is not correct. For me the Bible and the word are the same and I know of no true Born Again Christian that literally worships the Bible. But, for sure, our God is Omnipotent and it is not going to be me who says what he is and isn't.....there will come a day, that we will look him in the face and know him as well as he knows us....but not now!

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, absolutely... Worship God, not the Bible. Christianity is a religion about Jesus Christ... our views on the Bible should be secondary.

 

[Born Again2004]

Yes, absolutely... Worship God, not the Bible. Christianity is a religion about Jesus Christ... our views on the Bible should be secondary.

I agree, worshiping God can happen without the Bible but there is unique similarity that can only exist because of God....he is Holy, Righteous and Blameless and so is the Bible....It is much more than just white paper and black ink!

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Yes, if you want to understand God in a superficial manner.

No, if you want to understand the Truth.

 

[Joel Malloch]

God is infinitely bigger than his word - but he never contradicts his word.

 

[FireDragon76]

If they existed before time, certainly they are All Powerful and what they "handed" down to man in form of the word or the Bible existed before time as well....

That sounds more like Islam than Christianity. In Islam, they believe the Quran is eternal. I know of no major Christian denomination that insists the Bible is eternal or existed before the creation of the world.

 

[Born Again2004]

That sounds more like Islam than Christianity. In Islam, they believe the Quran is eternal. I know of no major Christian denomination that insists the Bible is eternal or existed before the creation of the world.

Psalm 119: 89 Your word, Lord, is eternal
it stands firm in the heavens
Psalm 90: 1-4
Lord, you have been our dwelling
throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

3 You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.

John 8:58
Revelation 1:8
Deuteronomy 33:27
I could go on forever. He is the Alpha and the Omega....he is eternal, Jesus is eternal and so is the word. Besides, with him in you , you should just know these things!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Psalm 119: 89 Your word, Lord, is eternal
it stands firm in the heavens
Psalm 90: 1-4
Lord, you have been our dwelling
throughout all generations.
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

3 You turn people back to dust,
saying, “Return to dust, you mortals.
4 A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by,
or like a watch in the night.

John 8:58
Revelation 1:8
Deuteronomy 33:27
I could go on forever. He is the Alpha and the Omega....he is eternal, Jesus is eternal and so is the word. Besides, with him in you , you should just know these things!

This rather demonstrates a couple things that are easy to be confused about.

1) The Psalmist isn't talking about the Bible, as there was no Bible at the time, rather the Psalmist is talking about God's Torah--the instruction which He gave to Israel at Mt. Sinai.

2) Translation is a fickle artform, you've used the NIV rendering here from what I can tell; which by its wording can be misleading--particularly in that it has translated l'wlam as "is eternal" where a perhaps more accurate rendering would be "forever", the word is 'wlam (or olam/owlam) with the prepositional lamed, l'wlam; 'wlam meaning "age" or "duration" with the preposition meaning "to" or "for"; "unto the age" perhaps would be fairly literal. The ESV has done this well, "Forever, O LORD, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens." but note how the NRSV has rendered it, "The Lord exists forever; your word is firmly fixed in heaven."

This suggests to me that it's unclear in the Hebrew whether l'wlam is describing God or God's dabar, His word or speech.

The meaning of the text, if referring to God's dabar, is that it is unshakable, unmovable, it is everlasting, forever, fixed in heaven--it is sure and certain. But, as noted, this isn't the Bible, this is God's instruction, His statutes, His commandments that is referred to.

It is not saying that God's dabar is without beginning, let alone having anything to say about the Bible itself.

This is a good example of why it's really important for Christians to be studious with Scripture and with theology, and to engage in both within the broader context of the historic Christian community--without that it's very easy to misunderstand Scripture and to get theology mixed up.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dhh712]

This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.

Well, God of course is separate from the Bible, but our understanding of God cannot be separate from the Bible. This is because God is not something man can attain to; he must reveal himself to us. The only way he does that is through his written word. His attributes are also revealed to us in nature; however, because we live in a fallen world, these things are not clearly reflective of him. In the written word God has given what is sufficient for us to understand of him in order for us to have salvation.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.

I'll try to approach this as if your were a friend of mine, and we were talking in person. Here's what I would say:

Believing the Bible as God's holy and ignorant word won't help you, even if you did. The message of the gospel is what is of importance - of vital importance. Christ has come to "set the captives free". He's come and lived the life we should have lived and died the death we should have died. He, the King of Kings, has come, and He will come again. He has conquered death, and through trust in Him and His death on your behalf, you conquer it with Him. In the greatest act of love the world has ever known, the King has laid down His life for the rebels - for those who have spit in His face. . .

Start with Jesus. Read His words. See His works, and believe in Him.

"I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture."​

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
​

You may very well find yourself trusting in the rest of scripture once you do. . .

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think God is only revealed in the Bible. That seems to go against what even the Bible says about the matter.

Focusing on the Bible is not without its risks. One common problem I see in religious groups is using the Bible in a self-serving manner, to only affirm or rationalize what people already believe to be true, instead of allowing themselves to be challenged by the text. It's one reason I have less intellectual respect for people that fill up their comments with proof-texts from the Bible.

 

[Noxot]

This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.

the field is good but not as good as the treasure that hides in it. God allowed the bible to be what it is for very many reasons and it is up to each of us to seek God for a better understanding when we find things that appear evil to us. God speaks his own language to his children and his children who become spiritual find that they understand it more and more as they form into their unique divine image of God.

Matt 13:44-50 (YLT)
`Again, the reign of the heavens is like to treasure hid in the field, which a man having found did hide, and from his joy goeth, and all, as much as he hath, he selleth, and buyeth that field. `Again, the reign of the heavens is like to a man, a merchant, seeking goodly pearls, who having found one pearl of great price, having gone away, hath sold all, as much as he had, and bought it. `Again, the reign of the heavens is like to a net that was cast into the sea, and did gather together of every kind, which, when it was filled, having drawn up again upon the beach, and having sat down, they gathered the good into vessels, and the bad they did cast out, so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'

Rev 21:23-27 (YLT)
and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it is the Lamb; and the nations of the saved in its light shall walk, and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it, and its gates shall not at all be shut by day, for night shall not be there; and they shall bring the glory and the honour of the nations into it; and there may not at all enter into it any thing defiling and doing abomination, and a lie, but--those written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb.