Can God be Separate From the Bible?

LostEve19

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This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.
 

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God pre-existed the Bible, of course. So did the religions God established - he established Judaism, which resulted in the Old Testament being written, and he established Christianity, which resulted in the New Testament being written. The Bible is where we learn about these faiths. Catholics and Orthodox will cite tradition - but it is important to remember that the Bible records the tradition God gave us. Protestants emphasize the Bible greatly because other traditions came up later and led to spiritual abuse and deception, with corrupt popes pulling their rank to justify them. So the Protestants decided to cut out the garbage, and go by Sola Scriptura. This should not be understood to mean that it calls for all tradition to be cast aside, but that Scripture trumps tradition rather than vice versa, even if a pope says otherwise.

Personally, I have found this to be a very empowering doctrine and approach, as believing things about God and my spiritual state that were against the Bible was very oppressive to me, to the point of being very unhealthy. I believe that putting too much stock in doctrines outside the Bible has a very high potential to get people there or worse, eventually. The Bible literally contains the words of life to me.

I'd be happy to discuss anything you're unsure about with you. I hope you think I'm a safe person to do that with.
 
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This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.


Without the Bible what would you know about the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ) or the Holy Spirit? The Bible is the Owners manual for Christians in a real way, The Bible is a record of how God works in the past and how He will work for you now. The Bible is alive and the Holy Spirit teaches us from it, the Bible is alive and active and is able to pierce our hearts even like a knife cuts to the marrow of the bone. Clearly as you read and study the Bible your love for God and jesus will grow so much more, you will grow to love Gods Word!
 
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Soyeong

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This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.

You can believe that the God of classical theism exists without believing that Christianity is true. The Bible makes a case for the identity of the God of classical theism by recording His interactions throughout history, which you do not have to believe is accurate. However, if don't believe what the Bible have revealed about the Christian identity of this God is accurate, then you are not a Christian by definition. However, keep in mind that just because you don't agree with an action that the Bible records that God did doesn't mean it is not true. If your God never does anything that you don't agree with, then it might be the case that you are actually worshipping an idealized form of yourself.

What is it in the Bible that you can't agree with and why do you doubt that the words in the Bible reflect he heart of God?
 
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LostEve19

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God pre-existed the Bible, of course. So did the religions God established - he established Judaism, which resulted in the Old Testament being written, and he established Christianity, which resulted in the New Testament being written. The Bible is where we learn about these faiths.

I might shoot some rapid fire questions at you that have really simple answers, please forgive how little I know so far.:relieved: So do you believe that the words of the Bible are direct from God and that we can trust it as true to His message and hopes for us? Many, many countless religions have their own sacred texts, be they from God or another perceived deity they worship. I find it hard to trust that a text written by men can be 100% correct, though of course I could hardly ask God to come down and pen a manifesto for us by hand! Looking back on what I've just written, I think it's growing more obvious that my weakness in my relationship with religion is difficulty trusting, I'll have to work on that.

Jesus, the prophets, the early church, and the Apostles all believed in the scriptures, so why wouldn't you? How would you know about what God and Jesus said if you didn't have the scriptures?

Growing up with a Jewish family was certainly how I learned about God, if not Jesus and more Christian specific beliefs! And there are many other religions that worship our single God beyond that. Thought the Bible is powerful and has huge influence, I'm not sure it is the only road for people to find God.

You can believe that the God of classical theism exists without believing that Christianity is true. The Bible makes a case for the identity of the God of classical theism by recording His interactions throughout history, which you do not have to believe is accurate. However, if don't believe what the Bible have revealed about the Christian identity of this God is accurate, then you are not a Christian by definition. However, keep in mind that just because you don't agree with an action that the Bible records that God did doesn't mean it is not true. If your God never does anything that you don't agree with, then it might be the case that you are actually worshipping an idealized form of yourself.

What is it in the Bible that you can't agree with and why do you doubt that the words in the Bible reflect the heart of God?

You make a lot of sense, especially in the first part of your reply and I think further study of the Bible will help me think further about this. My inner moral struggles are what you might expect from a young girl in a very liberal atmosphere. I've seen very loving and genuine relationships between same sex partners and I have trouble believing that God would disapprove of love like that that brings true happiness to those good people involved in them. I also grapple with the idea that sinners and nonChristians are slated for eternity in hell after death. There are many people that simply never are exposed to God and so never even have the opportunity to find him. There are some who are forced into sin. Is it justice for these people to be punished? Does God think it is? I read something on another post here saying that maybe our conception of hell is incorrect, and that for those I mentioned death may truly be the end of their consciousness instead of torment and that seems much truer to God's message of forgiveness..?
 
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bling

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You make a lot of sense, especially in the first part of your reply and I think further study of the Bible will help me think further about this. My inner moral struggles are what you might expect from a young girl in a very liberal atmosphere. I've seen very loving and genuine relationships between same sex partners and I have trouble believing that God would disapprove of love like that that brings true happiness to those good people involved in them. I also grapple with the idea that sinners and nonChristians are slated for eternity in hell after death. There are many people that simply never are exposed to God and so never even have the opportunity to find him. There are some who are forced into sin. Is it justice for these people to be punished? Does God think it is? I read something on another post here saying that maybe our conception of hell is incorrect, and that for those I mentioned death may truly be the end of their consciousness instead of torment and that seems much truer to God's message of forgiveness..?

You show a lot of good logical thinking here.

Same sex relationships is lengthy study subject and does not have an easy flip and point answer. I have studied the subject one on one with others and they help me and I think I have helped them come to the most likely alternative. God is very merciful and Loving, so this all can be worked out.

Hell is another lengthy subject and the sinner being annihilated might be the most likely alternative. The Bible talks about an eternal flame consuming anything thrown into it. It does not appear the sinner has an eternal soul, while eternal life seems to be the gift for the believer. The Bible also seems to show degrees of punishment. We need to go through each verse on the subject and look at the alternatives to interpreting these verses.

Just as you came to know God through your parents, the best way to learn about Jesus is with a true Christian allowing Christ to live through him/her.
 
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LostEve19

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Hell is another lengthy subject and the sinner being annihilated might be the most likely alternative. The Bible talks about an eternal flame consuming anything thrown into it. It does not appear the sinner has an eternal soul, while eternal life seems to be the gift for the believer. The Bible also seems to show degrees of punishment. We need to go through each verse on the subject and look at the alternatives to interpreting these verses.

Just as you came to know God through your parents, the best way to learn about Jesus is with a true Christian allowing Christ to live through him/her.

No easy answers, that's for sure, huh? Like I said before I will have to go through the Bible further, my study of it certainly isn't finished yet and most likely never will be. But I agree about what you said about hell and the possible interpretations of it. The gift of eternal life for a believer against the true end of the soul after an (unknowing or unwilling) sinner dies seems very logical.
 
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aiki

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This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God.

Well, the Bible has power only because it is the inspired word of God. The truth in it may bring peace but only because that truth emanates from our Creator. So, it isn't really the Bible that's powerful but the God behind it.

Not agreeing with everything in the Bible is a curious problem. There are many things recounted in Scripture with which we are not supposed to agree. The Old Testament abounds with stories of cruel people doing evil things; it recollects many horrible and wicked events. But we aren't supposed to applaud these things. Many people approach the Bible with an "Is-Ought" mindset: If it is in the Bible, it ought to be emulated or accepted as right and true. Some things, though, that the Bible includes in its content are included as examples of things we ought not do, that we should condemn and reject.

When you make yourself the standard by which God is defined, you essentially make yourself the creator of God. But who, then, is truly God?

Many, many countless religions have their own sacred texts, be they from God or another perceived deity they worship. I find it hard to trust that a text written by men can be 100% correct, though of course I could hardly ask God to come down and pen a manifesto for us by hand!

Aren't you assuming that all religious texts are more or less equal? But is that really the case? I don't think so. The Bible bears the marks of its divine origin where all other religious texts do not. Have you ever looked at the reasons why Christians think the Bible is God's word? Here's a brief list:

1.) Thematic unity.
This might not at first glance seem like a particularly remarkable characteristic, but when you consider how the Bible was written, what the circumstances of its creation were, its thematic unity is extraordinary.
2.) Fulfilled prophecy.
These prophecies aren't the usual vague, overly-generalized, something-somewhere-will-happen sort of "prophecies," but specific, detailed and numerous prophecies that are fulfilled sometimes centuries later with equal specificity and completeness.
3.) Archaeological/historical accuracy.
The Bible has been for centuries a trusted and prominent source of information for historians and archaeologists working in the Middle East. Again and again the Bible has been vindicated as a reliable source of historical data. Clearly, the Bible is not simply a collection of myths, but a series of actual, historical events.
4.) Survivability and popularity.
There have been a number of attempts to eradicate the Bible from existence. And predictions of the death of the Bible have been made repeatedly. But the Bible remains. And it not only remains but has been a best-selling book for a very long time.
5.) Effect upon individuals and societies.
The truths, principles and wisdom of Scripture have transformed millions of lives and shaped entire cultures. Again and again people have found the Bible to be a source of life-changing truth.

Taken together, these (and other reasons I have not given) provide a powerful cumulative case for trusting that the Bible is indeed the word of God.

In its original form, the Bible was 100% accurate. Over time, corruptions of the text have occurred; but God has seen to it that the body of extant ancient manuscripts of the Bible is so enormous that the original text of the entire Bible can be reconstructed with 99.999% accuracy.

I've seen very loving and genuine relationships between same sex partners and I have trouble believing that God would disapprove of love like that that brings true happiness to those good people involved in them.

God is not against "loving and genuine relationships" between people of the same sex. He is against the perverting of His design for human sexuality. As every homosexual can see, God did not intend for sex to occur between two people of the same gender.

I also grapple with the idea that sinners and nonChristians are slated for eternity in hell after death. There are many people that simply never are exposed to God and so never even have the opportunity to find him.

Could it be that your view of human wickedness is not as clear as God's view is? Could it be that you're far too soft on sin rather than that God is too hard on it?

The apostle Paul points out that all people have an innate awareness of God that they "suppress in unrighteousness." (Rom. 1:18-21) We all know there is a God; we just don't all want to know Him. And when we turn from God we turn necessarily to darkness and sin -- and God's holy justice and wrath. But God will meet with any who are seeking Him out wherever they are. YouTube has a number of testimonies of Muslims in Muslim-only countries who have met with the God revealed in the Bible in their dreams and through various other unusual means. God has promised to be found by any who truly desire to know Him. The problem, as I said, is that most don't want truly to know Him.

There are some who are forced into sin. Is it justice for these people to be punished? Does God think it is?

What do you mean, exactly?

I read something on another post here saying that maybe our conception of hell is incorrect, and that for those I mentioned death may truly be the end of their consciousness instead of torment and that seems much truer to God's message of forgiveness..?

This is not supported by the plain teaching of the Bible.

Selah.
 
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Born Again2004

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This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.

Can God be Separate From the Bible?
It is pretty simple to me:
  • God has always existed
  • God is Jesus
  • They are the word, the Bible
  • Can't go by any of your own secular reasoning
  • You must be Born Again
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
John 17:17 Make them holy by your truth; teach them your word, which is truth.
John 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
 
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LostEve19

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If it is in the Bible, it ought to be emulated or accepted as right and true. Some things, though, that the Bible includes in its content are included as examples of things we ought not do, that we should condemn and reject.

This is a very good point and something I think is entirely true.

God is not against "loving and genuine relationships" between people of the same sex. He is against the perverting of His design for human sexuality. As every homosexual can see, God did not intend for sex to occur between two people of the same gender.

Not disagreeing, but do you believe sex should solely be for procreation?

Could it be that your view of human wickedness is not as clear as God's view is? Could it be that you're far too soft on sin rather than that God is too hard on it?

I don't think that I'm a perfectly judge of what is morally right and wrong, for sure. Maybe, like many people, part of my interest in God and the Bible in searching for something to tell me what is morally right or wrong. I think people now today are more eager to adopt someone else's views than develop their own.

What do you mean, exactly?

Those who suffer abuse and victims of rape were the first who came to mind when I was typing that sentence out. It's heard to believe that these people should be punished.
 
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aiki

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Not disagreeing, but do you believe sex should solely be for procreation?

No. But the fundamental or primary purpose for sex is procreation, not pleasure or relational intimacy. In modern times, these things have been elevated above the primary purpose of sex, they have been made the main emphasis of it, and the results have been devastating. God did not intend for sex to be a purely self-serving thing, a means of recreation and self-gratification, as it is particularly among young people today. Because this is the thinking within which sex is promoted and practiced in contemporary western cultures, relationships, families and cultures are being destroyed. What is happening in Europe right now is a good example. Within fifty years, Germany, Italy, Sweden, France, Denmark and likely other countries too will be historical artifacts rather than living cultures. Not solely, but certainly in large part, this is happening because of a too-low birth rate. Even if there weren't millions of Muslims streaming unchecked into Europe and overtaking it, these cultures have sustained too-low birthrates for too long and are well past the point of return from cultural expiration. Young people either aren't marrying or, if they do, they have no desire for children. Sex in their minds is not about procreation but about what the popular media has schooled them to think it is: entertainment and self-gratification.

I don't think that I'm a perfectly judge of what is morally right and wrong, for sure. Maybe, like many people, part of my interest in God and the Bible in searching for something to tell me what is morally right or wrong. I think people now today are more eager to adopt someone else's views than develop their own.

The Bible simply asserts that we humans cannot see our sin clearly. And this is why God's judgment of our sin seems so harsh. We are steeped in sin that we do not even recognize as sin. We are comfortable and satisfied in behaviour and thinking that God condemns. How, then, can we properly judge the moral character of our living? Humans are notoriously eager "to do that which is right in their own eyes," to be as morally unaccountable as possible. God rather crimps that tendency and so we object. But God doesn't back down. Because He is a righteous, and holy, and just God, He will judge our sin no matter how much we might protest.

Those who suffer abuse and victims of rape were the first who came to mind when I was typing that sentence out. It's heard to believe that these people should be punished.

God doesn't punish people for being victims. He punishes people for breaking His divine commands.

Selah.
 
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Sketcher

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So do you believe that the words of the Bible are direct from God
I believe he spoke to prophets, and they wrote down what God inspired them to write.
and that we can trust it as true to His message and hopes for us?
Yes.
Many, many countless religions have their own sacred texts, be they from God or another perceived deity they worship. I find it hard to trust that a text written by men can be 100% correct, though of course I could hardly ask God to come down and pen a manifesto for us by hand!
We'd have to get more into specifics to really address that.
 
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Jason Sanders

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LostEve,

As others have already said, The Bible is divinely inspired, a handbook for all those who believe, filled with wisdom and knowledge that can/will help guide you in your walk, should you choose to follow Christ.

However, the truth of the matter is that the Bible is just words on paper to those without the Holy Spirit. For the Scriptures are not the source of eternal life but the directions to it- and they all point to Jesus, who said (through Paul) that those who do not walk after the Spirit (that is, those who do not have the Spirit in them and don't follow His guidings) are not His (that is, Christ's).

My advice to you, then, is this- speak to God about your doubts. If you are not a Chrisitian, that's ok He doesn't really care- but ask Him to explain why you ought to believe the Bible over, say, the Quoran or whatever Buddhists read. And then wait. He'll answer you; He's always doing something, whether you know it or not.

As for the matter of same-sex relationships, I will say only this: God is not afraid of sex- in fact, He invented it! However, it was not meant to be something one just casually does. Sexual intercourse between a married couple is the closest natural reference we have to how God feels towards us (again, thank Paul for that), and that is why He said it should only be done between a man and his wife- because anything else is a twisting of His love into something else, something it was never meant to be.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is perhaps the biggest struggle in my mind as I approach Christianity. I've heard many things about the strength of the written word and the peace the Bible brings them but I cannot agree with everything in it nor can I be sure that these words written by men truly reflect the heart of God. Of course, it's not easy for me to bring this up in casual conversation so I hope that y'all's responses can maybe offer me some perspective? Please understand that I mean no offense at all by this question.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by separate God from the Bible. My immediate reaction would be that God isn't constrained to the Bible, God is God after all. But then it's important to understand what the Bible is and its role within historic Christian thought.

The Bible isn't "God's book", I'd actually want to emphasize strongly that the Bible isn't a book at all, it's a collection of different books, but insofar as we're going to call it a book at all, the Bible is the Church's book.

What is essential in Christian thought is who God is and what God has done; specifically Jesus. There's no Christianity without Jesus. Jesus is, in Christian theology, the very Word of God, He is God's very own Self-unveiling of who God is to the world. Two things I want to quote to showcase what I'm talking about, first comes from the Gospel of St. John,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. ... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. ... No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." - John 1:1-3, 14, and 18

The second comes from a Roman Catholic theologan, Fr. Herbert McCabe,

"This is what John is talking about at the beginning of his Gospel when he calls Jesus the Word of God made flesh. Jesus is God's Word, God's idea of God, how God understands himself. He is how-God-understands-himself become a part of our human history, become human, become the first really thoroughly human part of our history..." - Herbert McCabe, God Still Matters, p. 104

Jesus is God's Revelation. Of course there's a lot more to be said about Jesus as the Word (Greek: Logos), but for our purposes here this is what I want to focus on.

The Bible isn't the chief revelation of God to man, Jesus Christ is. The Bible is something different, it's called "God's word" and "word of God" in a different sense. The Bible, for Christians, is that collection of writings which the Christian Church through history came to regard as sacred, inspired, and chiefly as communicating Jesus Christ to us. This idea stems ultimately from the words of Jesus Himself as recorded (again) in John's Gospel, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,"

St. Augustine of Hippo, one of the most important Christian theologians in history, said of the Scriptures that they have but "one Utterance" that Utterance he speaks of is Jesus.

Martin Luther, who started the Protestant Reformation, compared the Scriptures to the manger which held the infant Jesus, the Scriptures in a sense contain Christ. Christ is their ultimate Subject. And when we hear the Scriptures read out loud in our worship (that's the original purpose of the Bible by the way), or when we read them for ourselves what we are hearing, fundamentally, is Jesus. It is Jesus being preached, if the Scriptures are being read rightly that is.

There are two potential problems that I can see arising from your question:

1) That there is a nebulous something-or-other, an ultimate reality, "God" and it can be accessed or experienced in some fashion apart from the Bible, or fundamentally apart from organized religion, or the structures of Christian worship--the Gospel, the Sacraments, the Church, etc. That's a problem, because such a "God" would be one completely unrecognizable to Christians; God is God because He's the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, God is God because He's the one who made a covenant with Israel, and a promise to Abraham, which is fulfilled--made full and whole--in Jesus the Christ. God is not God outside of what God has done, and who God is.

2) The Bible is all that we need, it's God's special handbook to me, to tell me how to live my life, and just it and me can get along just fine. That's a problem because the Bible isn't about me, it's not about you, it's about Jesus. Jesus is what matters. The Bible isn't God's Revelation, Jesus Christ is God's Revelation. The Bible, without Jesus, is just expensive paper.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LostEve19

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The Bible isn't the chief revelation of God to man, Jesus Christ is. The Bible is something different, it's called "God's word" and "word of God" in a different sense. The Bible, for Christians, is that collection of writings which the Christian Church through history came to regard as sacred, inspired, and chiefly as communicating Jesus Christ to us. This idea stems ultimately from the words of Jesus Himself as recorded (again) in John's Gospel, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,"

This really does help me understand the importance of Jesus in relation to God and the Bible, something sort of clicked into place in my head!

There are two potential problems that I can see arising from your question:

1) That there is a nebulous something-or-other, an ultimate reality, "God" and it can be accessed or experienced in some fashion apart from the Bible, or fundamentally apart from organized religion, or the structures of Christian worship--the Gospel, the Sacraments, the Church, etc. That's a problem, because such a "God" would be one completely unrecognizable to Christians; God is God because He's the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, God is God because He's the one who made a covenant with Israel, and a promise to Abraham, which is fulfilled--made full and whole--in Jesus the Christ. God is not God outside of what God has done, and who God is.

This thought was actually the foundation of my religion beliefs for a long time before I really thought about settling into specifics! One higher power that is defined in thousands of different ways by thousands of different religions but in the end all comes together into the same sacred being we as humans could never define. Maybe we can access this holiness through all sorts of different pathways. Part of me says that this is still what I believe in my heart of hearts but doubt keeps me searching for the truth.

The Bible, without Jesus, is just expensive paper.

No particular response, just really loved this quote.
 
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LostEve19

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LostEve,
My advice to you, then, is this- speak to God about your doubts. If you are not a Chrisitian, that's ok He doesn't really care- but ask Him to explain why you ought to believe the Bible over, say, the Quoran or whatever Buddhists read. And then wait. He'll answer you; He's always doing something, whether you know it or not.

This really spoke to me, one of my biggest challenges is blind faith, reaching out to talk to God without expecting an answer or a clear sign immediately. Then I think about the sheer scope of people reaching out and asking for the same thing as me, with more need than I have and I understand that waiting might not be that bad. Patience is key :relieved:
 
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LostEve19

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No. But the fundamental or primary purpose for sex is procreation, not pleasure or relational intimacy. In modern times, these things have been elevated above the primary purpose of sex, they have been made the main emphasis of it, and the results have been devastating.

Especially considering my age, I can say without a doubt that you are right about the attitudes towards sex for kids my age or in their twenties. Virginity is something to get rid of rather than keep and carefully consider when to give up. Though among my friends, I've noticed the ones that have the least amount of hookups and sexual experience are the happier ones and they have more positive relationships with the opposite gender because they aren't viewing each other just in terms of lust.

The Bible simply asserts that we humans cannot see our sin clearly. And this is why God's judgment of our sin seems so harsh. We are steeped in sin that we do not even recognize as sin.

People tend to form their own core beliefs in terms of what is morally right and wrong, and as all people are biased, so are individual judgements of morality. This is where it's important for a shared moral code or judgement of what is sin in a community, like the Bible.
 
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Born Again2004

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There are limitless facets of God that I am sure transcend the Bible but , at the same time, one can not be separate from the other because he is the word, the Bible....John 1:1 . Also , Jesus said: Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined'.
Jesus is the word, the Bible, Jesus is God, they can't be separated.
 
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Job8

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Can God be Separate From the Bible?
God transcends everything, including His written Word. However, He has chosen to communicate with us through human language, so if you want to know what God is like and how He desires to relate to men, and what He expects from us, then you should go to the Bible.
 
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