Can Demons Procreate with Man?

[yeshuasavedme]

I believe fallen angels are demons and vice versa.

But after flood it could no longer happen I think. I will look up scripture later.


Shalom
Mark

No, the demons are the disembodied soul/spirits of the fallen angels offspring.
It did happen after the flood....Genesis 6 says so and history proves so.
Goliath was a nephillim, descended from one "Anak", apparently a fallen watcher after the flood.
King Og was a nephillim, also.
To be a "remnant of the giants" was to be of the "residue" spirit of the giants, a descendant with the same residue of evil spirit got by unlawful fornication of fallen Watchers with daughters of Adam.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Fallen angels are demons.

Neither can procreate, angels don't have genitals. Genitalia is a feature necessary for sexual reproduction, something angels don't need to do.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ChetSinger]

Fallen angels are demons.

Neither can procreate, angels don't have genitals. Genitalia is a feature necessary for sexual reproduction, something angels don't need to do.

-CryptoLutheran

That's what is commonly taught (or assumed) now. But it was not always so. Here's Justin Martyr, in The Second Apology of St. Justin Martyr, chapter 5:

But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begot children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. Whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them that did these things to men, and women, and cities, and nations, which they related, ascribed them to god himself, and to those who were accounted to be his very offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children again of these their offspring.

The idea is repeated by Athenagoras, in A Plea for the Christians, chapters 24 and 25:

Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honour the good or punish the bad, unless vice and virtue were in their own power; and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them by you, and others faithless), so is it among the angels. Some, free agents, you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which He had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them: namely, this ruler of matter and its various forms, and others of those who were placed about this first firmament (you know that we say nothing without witnesses, but state the things which have been declared by the prophets); these fell into impure love of virgins, and were subjugated by the flesh, and he became negligent and wicked in the management of the things entrusted to him. Of these lovers of virgins, therefore, were begotten those who are called giants...

...These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, which are the demons who wander about the world, perform actions similar, the one (that is, the demons) to the natures they have received, the other (that is, the angels) to the appetites they have indulged.

 

[Manasseh_]

No, the demons are the disembodied soul/spirits of the fallen angels offspring.
It did happen after the flood....Genesis 6 says so and history proves so.
Goliath was a nephillim, descended from one "Anak", apparently a fallen watcher after the flood.
King Og was a nephillim, also.
To be a "remnant of the giants" was to be of the "residue" spirit of the giants, a descendant with the same residue of evil spirit got by unlawful fornication of fallen Watchers with daughters of Adam.

this is the kind of garbage you get when you allow pseudepigraphal books like Enoch to influence thoughts, the book of Enoch is not inspired word from God and scripture doesn't teach that there are "disembodied souls or spirits" of any humans, this is pagan mythology attempting to infiltrate it's false doctrines into scripture, neither Genesis 6 or history prove any such thing since these are lies to begin with ........man's imaginations directly contradiciting scriptural teachings

there were only eight people who survived the flood

1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

and these eight people have their ancestry going back to the first man and woman where all humans came from..............

Act_17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

scripture does not teach that any "nephilim" survived the flood during Noah's time and scripture in general teaches that the soul that sinneth it shall die as all men have and will...........humans at death go to the grave awaiting their appointed resurrection which only comes by Christ..........men do not live beyond the grave until this happens

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

the mythology of fallen angels having sexual relations goes back to Mesopotanian and Sumerian paganism and has survived ever since in different cultures ,Egyptian and Greek mythology , medieval demonlogy ,etc,etc..............

God's word is clear, "ALL SOULS ARE MINE" and he created all souls from "ONE BLOOD" Adam and Eve and when any soul sins it dies and goes to the grave having no concious being while in the grave

men don't want to believe these simple truths from scripture , the very reason why false doctrines like these begin in men's imaginations then finally they attempt to teach them as truth.

well , it's not truth and it all began with satan attempting to deceive Eve...............you won't die if you disobey God

 

[prewrathrap]

The daughter-in-laws could have had the blood line of nephillim in them.

Second there are some truths from Book of Enoch that you can discern from bible. The heavens have levels as found in II Cor,lake of fire is there as also seen in book of Revelation, and is quoted by Jude in his epistle. One of the major items that is ignored in newer English versions is the scapegoat in Lev 16 is actually offered to Azazael (one of fallen angels). Name changed from Azazael to scapegoat. Book of Enoch found in Dead Sea scrolls and in my opinion is of major importance after the Bible.

In fact one of archangels listed as Uriel, I believe is the angel with the power over fire found in book of Rev. 14:8. Ur is city of lights (fire was only source of light until late 19thcentury). Uriel means God is my light.

Like anything need to test that which is written and how it lines up with scripture.

Shalom
Mark

 

[prewrathrap]

How do you explain this verse about the giants after the flood and before Israel entered promised land?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

How do you explain this verse about the giants after the flood and before Israel entered promised land?

Moses wrote that the sons of God took daughters of Adam as wives before the flood and got offspring through those wives and also after the flood, Moses said the same thing happened.


Jude says the angels that fell and committed fornication by going after strange flesh were chained as a warning to other angels to not do that because of the greater vengeance to come, in the same manner that the Sodomites who committed fornication by going after strange flesh were nuked as a warning to others who would do the same thing, because of the vengeance of eternal fire.

But other angels did fall after that and do the same as those before,not heeding the warning, and other men did go after "strange" flesh after Sodom was nuked, not heeding the warning.
But that does not negate the coming judgment on borh fallen angels and fallen Adamites who go after "strange" flesh in unlawful acts of fornication.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Fallen angels are demons.

Neither can procreate, angels don't have genitals. Genitalia is a feature necessary for sexual reproduction, something angels don't need to do.

-CryptoLutheran

Angels can appear in flesh bodies that look like Adam.
They have fully functioning parts that can eat, drink, sleep, and have sexual relations with the daughters of Adam, but without "seed" in their flesh parts, they had to gene splice [cut roots, Enoch wrote] to inject their own flesh DNA into the ovum of their Bath Adam wives.
The same is done today in laboratories, to take the ovum, inject DNA into it, and get a creature that is not of the "spirit" of the female ovum.
All Adam is one spirit, and shares the "remnant" of the Adam spirit.
The fallen angels then used their flesh bodies cells, to inject the nucleus of them into the ovum of their Adam daughter wives so as to get offspring from them.
The offspring were evil spirits in flesh bodies of gigantic proportions and amazing strengths; they were illegal, bastard spirit beings ,who are "the wicked who go astray, speaking lies as soon as they are born", and who cannot be redeemed.

 

[mog144]

this is the kind of garbage you get when you allow pseudepigraphal books like Enoch to influence thoughts, the book of Enoch is not inspired word from God and scripture doesn't teach that there are "disembodied souls or spirits" of any humans, this is pagan mythology attempting to infiltrate it's false doctrines into scripture, neither Genesis 6 or history prove any such thing since these are lies to begin with ........man's imaginations directly contradiciting scriptural teachings

there were only eight people who survived the flood

1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

and these eight people have their ancestry going back to the first man and woman where all humans came from..............

Act_17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

scripture does not teach that any "nephilim" survived the flood during Noah's time and scripture in general teaches that the soul that sinneth it shall die as all men have and will...........humans at death go to the grave awaiting their appointed resurrection which only comes by Christ..........men do not live beyond the grave until this happens

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

the mythology of fallen angels having sexual relations goes back to Mesopotanian and Sumerian paganism and has survived ever since in different cultures ,Egyptian and Greek mythology , medieval demonlogy ,etc,etc..............

God's word is clear, "ALL SOULS ARE MINE" and he created all souls from "ONE BLOOD" Adam and Eve and when any soul sins it dies and goes to the grave having no concious being while in the grave

men don't want to believe these simple truths from scripture , the very reason why false doctrines like these begin in men's imaginations then finally they attempt to teach them as truth.

well , it's not truth and it all began with satan attempting to deceive Eve...............you won't die if you disobey God

You really shouldn't knock Enoch!!! You'll soon enough find out what is garbage and what is truth.

Now, to other readers...
I recall Enoch writing about his brothers making packs with the lower nature women and falling from Grace, I paraphrased it because of the wording. His brothers who were on the earth went down into the earth and took wives for themselves. I think that this level of being above the others is a metaphor for defining the difference between the two natures, one being the lower nature and the other are sons of God who were glorified like Jesus is. They were all sons of God, meaning that they are brothers, also, and brothers of Jesus in the spiritual sense as the Father being in them.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Angels can appear in flesh bodies that look like Adam.
They have fully functioning parts that can eat, drink, sleep, and have sexual relations with the daughters of Adam,

Not according to Holy Scripture.

but without "seed" in their flesh parts, they had to gene splice [cut roots, Enoch wrote] to inject their own flesh DNA into the ovum of their Bath Adam wives.

1) Enoch isn't Scripture
2) That isn't what Enoch suggests
3) That is science fiction, not real.

The same is done today in laboratories, to take the ovum, inject DNA into it, and get a creature that is not of the "spirit" of the female ovum.
All Adam is one spirit, and shares the "remnant" of the Adam spirit.
The fallen angels then used their flesh bodies cells, to inject the nucleus of them into the ovum of their Adam daughter wives so as to get offspring from them.
The offspring were evil spirits in flesh bodies of gigantic proportions and amazing strengths; they were illegal, bastard spirit beings ,who are "the wicked who go astray, speaking lies as soon as they are born", and who cannot be redeemed.

I'm a Christian, not a Scientologist. If I wanted a religion about science fiction fantasy I'd convert to Scientology.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


Genesis 18:

18 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
3 and said, ]My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.
4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree;
5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.”
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “]Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it.
8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.


Angels in heaven eat food:
Psalm 78: 23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.

Angels appear as men when they wish:

Tobit - Chapter 1 - Bible - Catholic Online - Chapter 5

1 Tobias then replied to his father Tobit, 'Father, I shall do everything you have told me.
2 But how am I to recover the silver from him? He does not know me, nor I him. What token am I to give him for him to believe me and hand the silver over to me? And besides, I do not know what roads to take for this journey into Media.'
3 Then Tobit answered his son Tobias, 'Each of us set his signature to a note which I cut in two, so that each could keep half of it. I took one piece, and put the other with the silver. To think it was twenty years ago I left this silver in his keeping! And now, my child, find a trustworthy travelling companion-- we shall pay him for his time until you arrive back-- and then go and collect the silver from Gabael.'
4 Tobias went out to look for a man who knew the way to go with him to Media. Outside he found Raphael the angel standing facing him, though he did not guess he was an angel of God.
5 He said, 'Where do you come from, friend?' The angel replied, 'I am one of your brother Israelites; I have come to these parts to look for work.' Tobias asked, 'Do you know the road to Media?'
6 The other replied, 'Certainly I do, I have been there many times; I have knowledge and experience of all the ways. I have often been to Media and stayed with Gabael one of our kinsmen who lives at Rhages in Media. It usually takes two full days to get from Ecbatana to Rhages; Rhages lies in the mountains, and Ecbatana is in the middle of the plain.'
7 Tobias said, 'Wait for me, friend, while I go and tell my father; I need you to come with me; I shall pay you for your time.'
8 The other replied, 'Good, I shall wait; but do not be long.'
9 Tobias went in and told his father that he had found one of their brother Israelites. And the father said, 'Fetch him in; I want to find out about his family and tribe. I must see if he is going to be a reliable companion for you, my child.' So Tobias went out and called him,'Friend,' he said,'my father wants you,'
10 The angel came into the house; Tobit greeted him, and the other answered, wishing him happiness in plenty. Tobit replied, 'Can I ever be happy again? I am a blind man; I no longer see the light of heaven; I am sunk in darkness like the dead who see the light no more. I am a man buried alive; I hear people speak but cannot see them.' The angel said,' Take comfort; before long God will heal you. Take comfort.' Tobit said, 'My son Tobias wishes to go to Media. Will you join him as his guide? Brother, I will pay you.' He replied,' I am willing to go with him; I know all the ways; I have often been to Media, I have crossed all its plains and mountains, and I know all its roads.'

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


Genesis 18:

18 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
3 and said, ]My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.
4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree;
5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.”
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “]Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it.
8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.


Angels in heaven eat food:
Psalm 78: 23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.

Angels appear as men when they wish:
Tobit - Chapter 1 - Bible - Catholic Online - Chapter 5

1 Tobias then replied to his father Tobit, 'Father, I shall do everything you have told me.
2 But how am I to recover the silver from him? He does not know me, nor I him. What token am I to give him for him to believe me and hand the silver over to me? And besides, I do not know what roads to take for this journey into Media.'
3 Then Tobit answered his son Tobias, 'Each of us set his signature to a note which I cut in two, so that each could keep half of it. I took one piece, and put the other with the silver. To think it was twenty years ago I left this silver in his keeping! And now, my child, find a trustworthy travelling companion-- we shall pay him for his time until you arrive back-- and then go and collect the silver from Gabael.'
4 Tobias went out to look for a man who knew the way to go with him to Media. Outside he found Raphael the angel standing facing him, though he did not guess he was an angel of God.
5 He said, 'Where do you come from, friend?' The angel replied, 'I am one of your brother Israelites; I have come to these parts to look for work.' Tobias asked, 'Do you know the road to Media?'
6 The other replied, 'Certainly I do, I have been there many times; I have knowledge and experience of all the ways. I have often been to Media and stayed with Gabael one of our kinsmen who lives at Rhages in Media. It usually takes two full days to get from Ecbatana to Rhages; Rhages lies in the mountains, and Ecbatana is in the middle of the plain.'
7 Tobias said, 'Wait for me, friend, while I go and tell my father; I need you to come with me; I shall pay you for your time.'
8 The other replied, 'Good, I shall wait; but do not be long.'
9 Tobias went in and told his father that he had found one of their brother Israelites. And the father said, 'Fetch him in; I want to find out about his family and tribe. I must see if he is going to be a reliable companion for you, my child.' So Tobias went out and called him,'Friend,' he said,'my father wants you,'
10 The angel came into the house; Tobit greeted him, and the other answered, wishing him happiness in plenty. Tobit replied, 'Can I ever be happy again? I am a blind man; I no longer see the light of heaven; I am sunk in darkness like the dead who see the light no more. I am a man buried alive; I hear people speak but cannot see them.' The angel said,' Take comfort; before long God will heal you. Take comfort.' Tobit said, 'My son Tobias wishes to go to Media. Will you join him as his guide? Brother, I will pay you.' He replied,' I am willing to go with him; I know all the ways; I have often been to Media, I have crossed all its plains and mountains, and I know all its roads.'

Tobit - Chapter 1 - Bible - Catholic Online - Chapter 5

1 Tobias then replied to his father Tobit, 'Father, I shall do everything you have told me.
2 But how am I to recover the silver from him? He does not know me, nor I him. What token am I to give him for him to believe me and hand the silver over to me? And besides, I do not know what roads to take for this journey into Media.'
3 Then Tobit answered his son Tobias, 'Each of us set his signature to a note which I cut in two, so that each could keep half of it. I took one piece, and put the other with the silver. To think it was twenty years ago I left this silver in his keeping! And now, my child, find a trustworthy travelling companion-- we shall pay him for his time until you arrive back-- and then go and collect the silver from Gabael.'
4 Tobias went out to look for a man who knew the way to go with him to Media. Outside he found Raphael the angel standing facing him, though he did not guess he was an angel of God.
5 He said, 'Where do you come from, friend?' The angel replied, 'I am one of your brother Israelites; I have come to these parts to look for work.' Tobias asked, 'Do you know the road to Media?'
6 The other replied, 'Certainly I do, I have been there many times; I have knowledge and experience of all the ways. I have often been to Media and stayed with Gabael one of our kinsmen who lives at Rhages in Media. It usually takes two full days to get from Ecbatana to Rhages; Rhages lies in the mountains, and Ecbatana is in the middle of the plain.'
7 Tobias said, 'Wait for me, friend, while I go and tell my father; I need you to come with me; I shall pay you for your time.'
8 The other replied, 'Good, I shall wait; but do not be long.'
9 Tobias went in and told his father that he had found one of their brother Israelites. And the father said, 'Fetch him in; I want to find out about his family and tribe. I must see if he is going to be a reliable companion for you, my child.' So Tobias went out and called him,'Friend,' he said,'my father wants you,'
10 The angel came into the house; Tobit greeted him, and the other answered, wishing him happiness in plenty. Tobit replied, 'Can I ever be happy again? I am a blind man; I no longer see the light of heaven; I am sunk in darkness like the dead who see the light no more. I am a man buried alive; I hear people speak but cannot see them.' The angel said,' Take comfort; before long God will heal you. Take comfort.' Tobit said, 'My son Tobias wishes to go to Media. Will you join him as his guide? Brother, I will pay you.' He replied,' I am willing to go with him; I know all the ways; I have often been to Media, I have crossed all its plains and mountains, and I know all its roads.'
​

Enoch 15:
The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912
Enoch Hears the Voice of God
15 And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: "Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice.

2And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: 'You should intercede for men, and not men for you:

3Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants as your sons?
4And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten children with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. 5Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth.
6But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world.
7And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling.



The Creation of Unclean Spirits
8"And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. 9Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. 10As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling. 11And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences.
12And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.


Genesis 18:

18 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
3 and said, ]My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.
4 Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree;
5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.”
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “]Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it.
8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate.


Angels in heaven eat food:
Psalm 78: 23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.

Angels appear as men when they wish:

When God so wills it, yes. Reaching from these stories in Scripture to dogmatic angelological statements such as that "angels have sex organs" is a tremendous leap that is not justified by Scripture itself.

But that's not really the most problematic issue in your peculiar theological schema; it's the massive and fantastic leaping from Enoch's mythology to science fiction angelic DNA splicing.

You can keep quoting anything you want, you can keep ripping things out of context to your heart's content; it's not going to convince me to believe in angelic genitals or demons wearing lab coats running experiments to make monstrous humanoids.

I have no idea who deceived you, but whoever led you down this path I pray they find mercy. This isn't healthy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ChetSinger]

Not according to Holy Scripture.

I agree with you that Enoch isn't scripture, so I don't rest my beliefs on it.

But Genesis 18 indicates that angels can put on human flesh, because two of them grabbed Lot with their hands and even ate human food with Abraham.

And Genesis 6 indicates that they can procreate while having put on human flesh, that is, if the term "sons of God" in the Pentateuch refers to angelic beings.

And it probably does, because it appears again in Deut 32:7-9 when God divides the seventy nations among the "sons of God", keeping Israel for himself. That motif appears also in the neighboring Ugaritic religion, where El has seventy angelic "sons", one of which rules Ugarit on El's behalf.

Imo, that corresponding ANE context, dating to near the time of Moses, adds credence to the traditional interpretation of Genesis 6 as referring to angelic beings, as weird as it may sound.

If you're interested, here's a recent paper on the use of the term "sons of God" in Deuteronomy and its parallels in Ugaritic literature: Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I agree with you that Enoch isn't scripture, so I don't rest my beliefs on it.

But Genesis 18 indicates that angels can put on human flesh, because two of them grabbed Lot with their hands and even ate human food with Abraham.

And Genesis 6 indicates that they can procreate while having put on human flesh, that is, if the term "sons of God" in the Pentateuch refers to angelic beings.

And it probably does, because it appears again in Deut 32:7-9 when God divides the seventy nations among the "sons of God", keeping Israel for himself. That motif appears also in the neighboring Ugaritic religion, where El has seventy angelic "sons", one of which rules Ugarit on El's behalf.

Imo, that corresponding ANE context, dating to near the time of Moses, adds credence to the traditional interpretation of Genesis 6 as referring to angelic beings, as weird as it may sound.

If you're interested, here's a recent paper on the use of the term "sons of God" in Deuteronomy and its parallels in Ugaritic literature: Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God.

I think angels can look/act human, when God so wills it. In every case where an angel is visibly manifest in some capacity, it is by the direct will of God. As the author of the Hebrews states, they are "ministering spirits".

There is no indication that the fallen angels can do the same.

When we start talking about the ANE context of the Genesis stories that begins to open up an entirely new box of discussion. The position I take is that the early, pre-Abrahamic stories are not intended as journalistic records, but as appropriations stories, myths, legends present within the broad context of the Ancient Near East. They are appropriated and placed into the larger metanarrative of Israel.

Following that I don't think the story concerning the nephilim is intended to be read as a journalistic account, but is part of the story being appropriated. The text itself really doesn't give us enough information by which to make a definitive answer about what is meant by the sons of God and the daughters of men. Though perhaps something can be picked up with the following statement,

"Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

Firstly, it indicates that the nephilim are men. Human beings.

Secondly the text seems to assume the original audience had some notion of who these were, as they are ancient figures, renown. Which would seem to indicate perhaps a grouping of heroes, people of some importance. That would be the direction I'd take in exploring the meaning of the text.

By the couple centuries before Christ, when Enoch was written, there seems to have been a desire to elaborate on such obscure references in the biblical texts. So works like Enoch, Jubilees, the Testament of Abraham (and so on and so forth) were written for that purpose. As such Enoch takes what is one of the most obscure and vague statements in the Hebrew Bible and builds an elaborate mythology around it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jude, the womb brother of Jesus the Christ, read from Enoch and learned that the angels that sinned and are chained in Sheol below fornicated in the same manner as the Sodomites did, in going after "strange flesh".
Both the chaining of the angels who fornicated and the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain were examples of the greater infliction to come on all who commit fornication with strange flesh, whether they be angels from heaven or humans from earth.

Angels from heaven did the same fornicating with daughters of Adam after the flood as before, says Moses and history, and the seed of Adam did the same fornicating with strange flesh after the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah [which nuking with fire and brimstone gave us the coined the word "Hades", from the Hebrew "Qadesh" -male temple prostitutes, holy in an unclean way].


Jud 1:5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Jude read this account which he is referring to in Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam's writings, which book was called Scripture by Jesus Christ when he rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing it's doctrine on the state of the resurrected saints who attain the kingdom of heaven, and who are like/companions of, the angels in heaven who do not marry and do not give in marriage.
That doctrine is only found in Enoch, and Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing the Scripture/Writing on that doctrine from Enoch's "Thus says God the Great Glory from His throne", when Enoch was taken to heaven and heard from Him these things.

 

[ChetSinger]

I think angels can look/act human, when God so wills it. In every case where an angel is visibly manifest in some capacity, it is by the direct will of God. As the author of the Hebrews states, they are "ministering spirits".

There is no indication that the fallen angels can do the same.

I agree, aside from Genesis 6 itself.

When we start talking about the ANE context of the Genesis stories that begins to open up an entirely new box of discussion. The position I take is that the early, pre-Abrahamic stories are not intended as journalistic records, but as appropriations stories, myths, legends present within the broad context of the Ancient Near East. They are appropriated and placed into the larger metanarrative of Israel.

Then one reason for our differing conclusions may be that we approach the text differently. I approach the Pentateuch from Genesis 2 onward as literal history (I don't have strong opinions on Genesis 1). So when I see parallels with other ANE beliefs, I consider it possible that they're based on shared experiences and/or remembrances.

Following that I don't think the story concerning the nephilim is intended to be read as a journalistic account, but is part of the story being appropriated. The text itself really doesn't give us enough information by which to make a definitive answer about what is meant by the sons of God and the daughters of men. Though perhaps something can be picked up with the following statement,

"Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown."

Firstly, it indicates that the nephilim are men. Human beings.

Secondly the text seems to assume the original audience had some notion of who these were, as they are ancient figures, renown. Which would seem to indicate perhaps a grouping of heroes, people of some importance. That would be the direction I'd take in exploring the meaning of the text.

Again, our differing approach may be leading us to differing conclusions. But I agree with you that even literal nephilim are described as actual flesh-and-blood men. It's just that their parentage was only 50% Adamic.

By the couple centuries before Christ, when Enoch was written, there seems to have been a desire to elaborate on such obscure references in the biblical texts. So works like Enoch, Jubilees, the Testament of Abraham (and so on and so forth) were written for that purpose. As such Enoch takes what is one of the most obscure and vague statements in the Hebrew Bible and builds an elaborate mythology around it.

I also am skeptical of extra-Biblical Jewish books. They certainly have value because they show us what the Jewish public was reading during those times. But Paul warns us against "Jewish myths", so I consider our Judeo-Christian canon sufficient, and approach extra-Biblical books with caution, if at all.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jude, the womb brother of Jesus the Christ, read from Enoch and learned that the angels that sinned and are chained in Sheol below fornicated in the same manner as the Sodomites did, in going after "strange flesh".
Both the chaining of the angels who fornicated and the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain were examples of the greater infliction to come on all who commit fornication with strange flesh, whether they be angels from heaven or humans from earth.

Angels from heaven did the same fornicating with daughters of Adam after the flood as before, says Moses and history, and the seed of Adam did the same fornicating with strange flesh after the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah [which nuking with fire and brimstone gave us the coined the word "Hades", from the Hebrew "Qadesh" -male temple prostitutes, holy in an unclean way].


Jud 1:5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Jude read this account which he is referring to in Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam's writings, which book was called Scripture by Jesus Christ when he rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing it's doctrine on the state of the resurrected saints who attain the kingdom of heaven, and who are like/companions of, the angels in heaven who do not marry and do not give in marriage.
That doctrine is only found in Enoch, and Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing the Scripture/Writing on that doctrine from Enoch's "Thus says God the Great Glory from His throne", when Enoch was taken to heaven and heard from Him these things.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...


I also am skeptical of extra-Biblical Jewish books. They certainly have value because they show us what the Jewish public was reading during those times. But Paul warns us against "Jewish myths", so I consider our Judeo-Christian canon sufficient, and approach extra-Biblical books with caution, if at all.

Enoch the prophet was not a Jew, and his book was brought through the flood by Noah.
Noah and his son Shem sheltered Abraham for 39 years while he hid out from Nimrod, who wanted to kill him.
From Noah and Shem, Abraham got his own copy of Enoch the prophet's writings, and taught them to all who came by for the rest of his life.

Job is a descendant of Abraham and he and his friends quote from things Enoch wrote -but his friends do not use "wisdom" wisely or with understanding: which is the same today: without understanding, wisdom is hid from those who read and do not have light to see by.

In Abraham's own written words which are copied in the DSS manuscripts, Abraham read to the wise men of Egypt from the book of Enoch, when they asked him to teach them "Wisdom, Values and Truth":

Translation of 1Q Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen)

[… … first 6 lines missing … … There I built an alta]r [and I called] the[re on the name of G]o[d …], and I said, ‘You are m[y everlasting]g G[od’ … … …] I had not yet reached the holy mountain. I proceeded to […] and I was journeying to the south [… …] until I reached Hebron, for [at that time] Hebron had been bui[lt], and I dwelt [there two year]s. vacat
​

A famine took place throughout all this land, but I heard that grai[n] wa[s avail]able in Egypt. So I moved to [enter] the land of Egypt [ … … … ] I reache[d] the Carmona River, one of the branches of the river [ … … ]. Now we [ … ] our land, and I [cro]ssed the seven branches of this river which [ … … … ]. Now we passed out of our land and entered the land of the children of Ham, the land of Egypt. vacat
​

And I, Abram, dreamed a dream during the night of my entering the land of Egypt. I saw in my dream one cedar tree and one palm tree, [a very beautifu]l one, and huma[n] figures came and tried to chop down and uproot the cedar in order to leave the palm by itself. But the palm restrained (them) when she said, ‘Do not chop down the cedar, for both of us are from o[ne r]oot!’ And the cedar was left alone thanks to the protection of the palm and was not [chopped down]. vacat
​

I woke up from my dream in the night, and said to Sarai, my wife, ‘I have (just) dreamed a dream, [and I] am afraid [on account of] this dream!’ And she said to me, ‘Tell me your dream that I might know (it), and so I began to relate this dream to her. [And I revealed] to [her the meaning of that] dream, and I [said, ‘… …] for they will seek to kill me, but you they will spare [… …] this, every favor [which you must do for me] in every [place] where [we are, say] of me that "he is my brother," and I will remain alive by your protection and survive thanks to you.’ [… … ‘they will try] to remove you from me and to kill me!’ And Sarai wept over my words that night. [… … … …] and Pharaoh Z[oan … … …] Sarai to go to Zoan [with me, for she was v]ery [careful] with her person so that no [one] would see her […]. But after those five years, three men who were princes of Egypt [came … …] of Pharaoh Zoa[n] about my affairs and about my wife, and they presented [me numerous gifts and aske]d m[e to teach them] values, wisdom, and truth. So I read in their presence the [book of] the words of [En]och [… … …] in the famine which [… … 1 ½ lines garbled … …] with much eating and [much] drinking [… … ] wine [… … … remainder of column, approximately 6-7 lines, lost … …]
​

 

[cam44]

After perusing the Genesis 6 Giants thread... I wanted to delve further into that subject. If you personally believe that "sons of God" refer to fallen angels, as I do; do you believe the same could be said for demons? Do you think it possible for Satan's demons to procreate with mankind as well? Clearly, demons can indwell humans and can take a form of human so convincing that men don't even recognize them as anything out of the ordinary. I have no scriptural support to back this up, I just wanted to hear some different opinions on this.

Thank you and God bless!
Joy

Hi.
I think this actually happens allot.