Can Biology Class Reduce Racism?

[Ana the Ist]

Of course. I have a lot of problems with some cultural behaviors of my white brothers and sisters.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is still the fact of simple preference. If I were given the choice of spending day with a black man that I didn't know and a white family with small children that I didn't know I'd hang with the black guy.

Is that because he's black? Or because you don't like children?

 

[Al Touthentop]

So “racism” is just sin.

I really love the story of Miriam and Aaron. Miriam was badmouthing Moses' wife, who was black.

Numbers 12:1
"Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman."

"And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow."

This is God, in today's vernacular saying, "How do you like your whiteness now?"

Let nobody tell you God doesn't have a sense of humor.

 

[Radagast]

Do you think that is somehow related to genetics?

It seems likely. I can't imagine any cultural factors which would cause that East/West difference within Africa.

And the West African sprinting advantage carries over to culturally different groups with West African ancestry, like Jamaicans.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's so imperfect that it's really only helpful within a peer group (i.e. people who share a cultural background), it seems to me.

Yeah I agree. I think the common mistake is for people to look at IQ as if IQ=intelligence.

Intelligence is a very sophisticated concept that is extremely context/circumstance specific.

My wife thinks I'm intelligent because I'm able to remember a lot of detail about things she finds boring lol. I think she's intelligent for being able to put people at ease and converse about nearly anything. Intelligence can be deep knowledge about a specific topic or a wide base of knowledge about many topics or the ability to analyze information from multiple perspectives and so on....and so on....

I'm not saying IQ isn't useful though....but it's rather like measuring physical strength solely on how much weight a person can deadlift.

 

[Radagast]

Intelligence is a very sophisticated concept that is extremely context/circumstance specific.

Exactly. IQ tests start to become useful within communities that share all those other contexts and circumstances.

There worthless for comparing different countries, different generations, or wildly different socioeconomic groups.

My wife thinks I'm intelligent because I'm able to remember a lot of detail about things she finds boring lol. I think she's intelligent for being able to put people at ease and converse about nearly anything. Intelligence can be deep knowledge about a specific topic or a wide base of knowledge about many topics or the ability to analyze information from multiple perspectives and so on....and so on....

It's widely recognised that there are many different kinds of intelligence. The IQ proponents counter by saying that those kinds are all moderately highly correlated.

That may be true to some extent, but reducing people to a single number is seldom useful.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It seems likely. I can't imagine any cultural factors which would cause that East/West difference within Africa.

What about distance between communities?

And the West African sprinting advantage carries over to culturally different groups with West African ancestry, like Jamaicans.

It's certainly possible....I would just be more inclined to believe it if we could see the biological basis for it.

Studying history brings about an appreciation for the possibility of unconsidered factors having profound effects on individuals and large groups.

Geography, for example, and climate created a long and relatively easily traversed (for pack animals and beasts of burden) corridor extending overland from basically Portugal to China. This allowed for a much easier exchange of goods and ideas for nations along that corridor for millennia. The result is the biggest and often most advanced societies of their day existed along that path....from the Romans, to Persians, Mughals, and various Chinese dynasties.

Compared to the relative difficulty of overland travel in the Americas and Africa along with the difficulty of pack animals and you have civilizations that existed in far more isolation. Ideas, and the resulting advances, moved much more slowly.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I really love the story of Miriam and Aaron. Miriam was badmouthing Moses' wife, who was black.

Numbers 12:1
"Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman."

"And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow."

This is God, in today's vernacular saying, "How do you like your whiteness now?"

Leprosy as described in the bible is a baffling condition. My dad used to tell a joke about a prostitute with leprosy....her business was always falling apart.

Let nobody tell you God doesn't have a sense of humor.

Is giving someone leprosy for disliking ethiopians funny?

 

[FireDragon76]

There are physical differences, such as Asians typically having hard earwax, but those don't typically play out in the usual stereotypes people make about race.

People whose ancestors were living near the equator tend to have longer limbs than those living in colder climates. That could effect athletic performance in subtle ways.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Leprosy as described in the bible is a baffling condition. My dad used to tell a joke about a prostitute with leprosy....her business was always falling apart.



Is giving someone leprosy for disliking ethiopians funny?

He showed her in no uncertain terms that her whiteness was of no advantage to her in his eyes. The way that he did it seems humorous to me. He gave her a reprieve. He took away her leprosy. It was temporary and greatly illustrative.

 

[JackRT]

Leprosy as described in the bible is a baffling condition.

Modern leprosy does not correspond to Biblical leprosy at all. Medical science is quite puzzled as to just what Biblical leprosy was.

 

[FireDragon76]

I really love the story of Miriam and Aaron. Miriam was badmouthing Moses' wife, who was black.

Numbers 12:1
"Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman."

"And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow."

This is God, in today's vernacular saying, "How do you like your whiteness now?"

Let nobody tell you God doesn't have a sense of humor.

This is a cultural misreading of the text. In the ANE culture the story came from, Nubians were known for being from a wealthy region of Egypt and were not considered inferior. So Moses married up beyond his stature, and is being criticized for doing so.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's widely recognised that there are many different kinds of intelligence. The IQ proponents counter by saying that those kinds are all moderately highly correlated.

That may be true to some extent, but reducing people to a single number is seldom useful.

Yeah...it may be true. Anecdotal evidence isn't worth anything but it seems like I've known a lot of people who are very intelligent in certain ways and yet dumb as door nails in others. The peculiarities of savants and high functioning autistics suggests to me that there are certain dimensions to intelligence (like multiple perspective analysis, or abstract planning) and being proficient in one dimension doesn't necessarily translate to the others.

Personally, I tend to think people value those dimensions of intelligence that they personally lack....and perhaps what people describe as intelligent is just a relatively rare dimension or cluster of dimensions.

Edit- But what do I know?

 

[Radagast]

What about distance between communities?

I don't see how that would make a difference. And I don't think East and West Africa differ much on that scale, anyway.

It's certainly possible....I would just be more inclined to believe it if we could see the biological basis for it.

It's probably something subtle regarding muscle fibre type and/or skeletal structure. So far, no specific proposal has gained widespread support.

Studying history brings about an appreciation for the possibility of unconsidered factors having profound effects on individuals and large groups.

Geography, for example, and climate created a long and relatively easily traversed (for pack animals and beasts of burden) corridor extending overland from basically Portugal to China. This allowed for a much easier exchange of goods and ideas for nations along that corridor for millennia. The result is the biggest and often most advanced societies of their day existed along that path....from the Romans, to Persians, Mughals, and various Chinese dynasties.

You're talking about cultural factors there. Sure. And I was very careful to pick an example that minimised those cultural factors. I wasn't going to compare Europe and Africa, for example.

But sometimes history produces evolutionary pressure, and genes do change as well. White skin is the obvious example (it's an adaptation to get more vitamin D from sunlight). Lactose tolerance is another (it's an adaptation to get more benefit from domesticated animals).

 

[JackRT]

Ane the 1st --- many of our most revered scientist were known to be very peculiar people indeed.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Modern leprosy does not correspond to Biblical leprosy at all. Medical science is quite puzzled as to just what Biblical leprosy was.

Lol oh good...it's not just me

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't see how that would make a difference. And I don't think East and West Africa differ much on that scale, anyway.

I don't know that they do either....

I think it would make a difference if, for example, in both cultures car ownership wasn't widespread and there was a significant distance between communities. Let's say one region has an average 5 minute run to the next town....but the other region is a solid 45min run to the next town.

That gives people traveling between towns very different conditioning.

There's also the consideration of competition. The fact that Tekken tournaments (fighting video game) are constantly won by Koreans has more to do with the high level of competition within a small geographic area than anything....but to an outsider, it would be easy to mistakenly believe they must enjoy some eye-hand-coordination genetic advantages.

It's probably something subtle regarding muscle fibre type and/or skeletal structure. So far, no specific proposal has gained widespread support.

Like I said....they find it and I'm more inclined to believe it.

You're talking about cultural factors there. Sure. And I was very careful to pick an example that minimised those cultural factors. I wasn't going to compare Europe and Africa, for example.

Yeah...my point is that it's difficult to identify every cultural (or other) factor that might influence a particular outcome.

But sometimes history produces evolutionary pressure, and genes do change as well. White skin is the obvious example (it's an adaptation to get more vitamin D from sunlight). Lactose tolerance is another (it's an adaptation to get more benefit from domesticated animals).

Right....even height gets affected. Jungle dwelling ethnicities tend to be shorter, as height has no real advantage. When you talk about plains though....being able to see the tops of tall grasses helps identify approaching big predators.

 

[Radagast]

Right....even height gets affected. Jungle dwelling ethnicities tend to be shorter, as height has no real advantage. When you talk about plains though....being able to see the tops of tall grasses helps identify approaching big predators.

Height is tricky. There are indeed some inherently short groups of people, but improved diet is showing that some groups of people we thought of as short are in fact very tall.

But my main point, with regard to the OP, is that it's hard to argue that there are no genetic differences between ethnic groups.

One can argue that the differences are small, or that they are on axes that don't matter much, but that becomes a value judgement, not a scientific one.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Right....even height gets affected. Jungle dwelling ethnicities tend to be shorter, as height has no real advantage. When you talk about plains though....being able to see the tops of tall grasses helps identify approaching big predators.

The problem with all of this is that environment isn't what determines the characteristics of a person, it is his parents and their genes. There are slow runners in every nation. The preponderance of shorter stature has to do with the genes of the parents, not the trees. The genes of every human contain all of the traits that exist in people on every continent. White people have genes which could cause them to have dark skin were those genes the dominant genes in their parents. It's all there, tallness, baldness, hairy backs, smooth skin, etc etc etc.

 

[JackRT]

Height is tricky. There are indeed some inherently short groups of people, but improved diet is showing that some groups of people we thought of as short are in fact very tall.

Some years ago a study was made of the induction records of the Japanese Army in @1940 compared to modern records. The average Japanese soldier is now about 4 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier. Nutrition seems to be the main factor.

 

[Radagast]

Some years ago a study was made of the induction records of the Japanese Army in @1940 compared to modern records. The average Japanese soldier is now about 4 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier. Nutrition seems to be the main factor.

There have also been radical height increases in the Netherlands (almost 8 inches over 200 years). Obviously that's too fast for significant genetic changes to occur.