Can bearing false witness be moral?

[Neogaia777]

Well, I understand that differently too. "I think" Paul meant by following the letter was on account its wrong application, such as seeking to be justified by it. However, we should follow the Law, as it gives us moral instruction into righteous living, but this must, of course, be done from the heart. However, there will be times that you may not want to obey from the heart, but duty still demands our compliance regardless.

There will also be times, and maybe many times, that obeying from the heart will directly contradict any letter, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Jonaitis]

Very end of John, John 21:25- "And there are also many other things that Jesus (said and) did, which if they were (all) written (down) one by one, (then) I suppose that even the world itself could not contain (all) the books that would (need to) be written. Amen."

God Bless!

There is also these verses that I think support what you are saying.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." - John 14:26

And,

"But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him." - 1 John 2:27

 

[Jonaitis]

There will also be times, and maybe many times, that obeying from the heart will directly contradict any letter, etc...

God Bless!

But, if the letter instructs us to the greater application of its precepts, would it really be contradicting, or reaffirming its original meaning?

 

[Neogaia777]

But, if the letter instructs us to the greater application of its precepts, would it really be contradicting, or reaffirming its original meaning?

There are constantly new discoveries as to exceptions that need to be made in order to have perfect justice, and these are endless, and can go on for an eternity, or into eternity, etc...

And these most usually come and/or are discovered, most usually by learning as to when (or how) a law sometimes maybe shouldn't be fully obeyed in a lot of cases, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

But, if the letter instructs us to the greater application of its precepts, would it really be contradicting, or reaffirming its original meaning?

Is "do not lie", being broken when you lie, etc...?

Or what about stealing, or killing, or coveting and/or desiring, etc...?

Are those always being broken when you sometimes do do those things always, etc...?

Or do you maybe need to add more, and maybe a lot more, in order to satisfy perfect justice always perfectly always, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Jonaitis]

There are constantly new discoveries as to exceptions that need to be made in order to have perfect justice, and these are endless, and can go on for an eternity, or into eternity, etc...

And these most usually come and/or are discovered, most usually by learning as to when (or how) a law sometimes maybe shouldn't be fully obeyed in some cases, etc...

God Bless!

I would see those "new discoveries" the same as finding buried treasure in your backyard. It was there all along, you just never knew it. Once a Pharisee is born-again, they all of a sudden get an 'aha' moment when rereading the Law, and discovers that he had for a long time misunderstood everything, and begins to see the Spirit unfold the letter in its instruction toward its broader applications. Such was the case for Paul.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I've held the view for some time now that in some situations lying is not sinful. Case in point, hiding Jews during the Holocaust. I think where lying becomes sinful is when it's done with malicious intent, which grant is usually the case, but there are instances where I believe lying can actually not be sinful.

As other have said though, bearing false witness is more than just lying, it's basically character assassination which is never moral.

 

[BravoM]

I would suggest that people stop using WW2 and the Holocaust as an example.
IRL in some 3rd world "places" where evil people control it then the same situation of hiding people is an ongoing thing. Lying to save their lives is far less serious than telling the truth and being complicit in their death.
"What if..." scenarios are a faulty argument by default.

 

[BobRyan]

There is a commandment about not bearing false witness / lying....

Romans 13 also says to obey the government.

So if you were hiding some Jews and a Nazi government asked you whether you knew of any Jews it seems there are two reasons to tell the truth.

There are cases in the Bible where people were hiding prophets of God from the government of Israel that wanted to kill them.

In one example an enemy army starts to attack a city in Israel and is blinded by God then a prophet comes out and tells them "this is not the city you are looking for"

 

[Mink61]

There will also be times, and maybe many times, that obeying from the heart will directly contradict any letter, etc...

God Bless!

I agree! And as a few others have written, the same question can be asked about the other Commandments as well.

There is a big difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. According to the Pharisees, Jesus broke the Commandment about Sabbath, when his disciples picked at the heads of wheat to eat them on that day. Jesus also broke the Sabbath Commandment when he healed a man on the Sabbath. Did he break the letter of the law, the spirit of the law, or both?

According to the Pharisees, he broke the law. PERIOD. And there are no exceptions, PERIOD. But Jesus came, and tried to give them WISDOM about the law. Yes, there are, in fact, exceptions.

Unfortunately, many people lack the wisdom necessary to determine when it's "o.k." (I put that in quotes for lack of a better word) to break a law, whether it's a secular law or Biblical law.

 

[Neogaia777]

I agree! And as a few others have written, the same question can be asked about the other Commandments as well.

There is a big difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. According to the Pharisees, Jesus broke the Commandment about Sabbath, when his disciples picked at the heads of wheat to eat them on that day. Jesus also broke the Sabbath Commandment when he healed a man on the Sabbath. Did he break the letter of the law, the spirit of the law, or both?

According to the Pharisees, he broke the law. PERIOD. And there are no exceptions, PERIOD. But Jesus came, and tried to give them WISDOM about the law. Yes, there are, in fact, exceptions.

Unfortunately, many people lack the wisdom necessary to determine when it's "o.k." (I put that in quotes for lack of a better word) to break a law, whether it's a secular law or Biblical law.

There can be no (true) justice so long as the or any or all laws, are all always all absolutes...

God Bless!

 

[Blade]

God hates sin period. In Gods eyes its never ok to lie. There is no white lie, little lie. No its not ok to lie and say "there not here". Sure protected them but in Gods eyes that was sin and sin in this world has a price every time.

 

[Sketcher]

There is a commandment about not bearing false witness / lying....

Romans 13 also says to obey the government.

So if you were hiding some Jews and a Nazi government asked you whether you knew of any Jews it seems there are two reasons to tell the truth.

Though in Jericho Rahab lied about whether there were spies and her and her family were spared.

If the commandment can be broken how do you know when breaking it is moral?

Then there is the case of "white lies". e.g. someone might ask if they look fat - when they are very overweight, etc.

Let's look at the command:

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." - Exodus 20:16

So, if I'm hiding a Jew, and Nazis come to my door and ask if there are any Jews here, and I say "no," who am I bearing false witness against? Who am I slandering? Who am I defrauding?

 

[Leaf473]

There is a commandment about not bearing false witness / lying....

Romans 13 also says to obey the government.

So if you were hiding some Jews and a Nazi government asked you whether you knew of any Jews it seems there are two reasons to tell the truth.

Though in Jericho Rahab lied about whether there were spies and her and her family were spared.

If the commandment can be broken how do you know when breaking it is moral?

Then there is the case of "white lies". e.g. someone might ask if they look fat - when they are very overweight, etc.

Hi JohnClay,

Nice to meet you!

I take a somewhat different approach than many of my Christian brothers and sisters. Christianity isn't about following a set of rules, it's about walking in the Spirit.

The Bible is a great source of wisdom, and the Spirit frequently uses things from that to lead us. But the goal is growing the fruit of the Spirit.

A different way of looking at it is that we want to be one of those people "who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil."
That's from the end of Hebrews 5.

 

[Mink61]

There can be no (true) justice so long as the or any or all laws, are all always all absolutes...

God Bless!

YES! And "JUSTICE" is the key word! Justice is about fairness.

God hates sin period. In Gods eyes its never ok to lie. There is no white lie, little lie. No its not ok to lie and say "there not here". Sure protected them but in Gods eyes that was sin and sin in this world has a price every time.

I think some people tend to view God as very punitive...as if God just sits on His Throne, waiting for us to screw up and sin so He can send us all to hell!

That's actually what the Pharisees believed. You break a law, even a small law, you die.

Above God's Justice is God's Mercy. And if we show mercy to others, how much mercy will God show to us?

 

[ViaCrucis]

There is a commandment about not bearing false witness / lying....

Romans 13 also says to obey the government.

So if you were hiding some Jews and a Nazi government asked you whether you knew of any Jews it seems there are two reasons to tell the truth.

Though in Jericho Rahab lied about whether there were spies and her and her family were spared.

If the commandment can be broken how do you know when breaking it is moral?

Then there is the case of "white lies". e.g. someone might ask if they look fat - when they are very overweight, etc.

Lying to protect a life isn't bearing false witness. To bear false witness is more than just not being truthful, it's intentionally harming your neighbor by speaking ill of them, by dragging their reputation through the mud. It's slander and lying about our neighbor.

Lying to protect a life isn't bearing false witness, instead it is holding firm to the Chief Commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

In the scenario, not only is lying to the Gestapo the moral choice, it is the righteous choice; it would indeed be unrighteous and cruel and contrary to the commandment of God to tell the truth and betray your neighbor's life and dignity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carbon]

Lying to protect a life isn't bearing false witness. To bear false witness is more than just not being truthful, it's intentionally harming your neighbor by speaking ill of them, by dragging their reputation through the mud. It's slander and lying about our neighbor.

Lying to protect a life isn't bearing false witness, instead it is holding firm to the Chief Commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

In the scenario, not only is lying to the Gestapo the moral choice, it is the righteous choice; it would indeed be unrighteous and cruel and contrary to the commandment of God to tell the truth and betray your neighbor's life and dignity.

-CryptoLutheran

Interesting choice of terminology. How do you differentiate morality from righteousness?

 

[Mink61]

Interesting choice of terminology. How do you differentiate morality from righteousness?

Just a quick question for you...

Before the Exodus from Egypt, the Pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill all boys born to the Hebrew women. The midwives "feared God", and when Pharaoh saw that they were allowing the boys to live, Pharaoh wasn't too happy. The midwives claimed (a.k.a. lied) and told the Pharaoh that the Hebrew women gave birth before the midwives could get there. God looked upon the midwives favorably, and multiplied their own families.

Were the midwives 'righteous'?
Were they 'immoral'?

 

[Ligurian]

To bear false witness literally means to falsely accuse someone. It's closely related to taking the name of God in vain i.e., swearing a false oath. Both are judicial. A witness in a trial is sworn and is expected to give only truthful testimony. The Revelation condemn "liars":

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, ... and all liars...

But in that case a liar is a fraudster. It's someone who lies to gain something and then doesn't follow through on their word. Jesus also spoke against it:

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, ... Defraud not...

The Greek word translated as "witness" is also translated as "testimony". This can mean in a court of law, or a person's account of someone else's character. The intent of this Law seems to be the avoidance of vilification.

Taking the name of the Lord in vain hinges on the word "vanity"... "for nothing". I.e., pretending to come in the name of the Lord... the Lord will not hold guiltless.

Swearing a false oath is about the sort of people who say they're going to do something and never do it. They think that if they swear to it, they will actually fulfill their word (shrug, who knows?).

Revelation 21:8... these liars are probably guilty of false testimony and false prophets... pretenders, because the Greek word for "lie" is also "false".
Revelation 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I don't know where Mark got his information... "defraud not" isn't part of the Matthew 19:18-19 account... nor is it in Exodus 20:1-17.

 

[Carbon]

Just a quick question for you...

Before the Exodus from Egypt, the Pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill all boys born to the Hebrew women. The midwives "feared God", and when Pharaoh saw that they were allowing the boys to live, Pharaoh wasn't too happy. The midwives claimed (a.k.a. lied) and told the Pharaoh that the Hebrew women gave birth before the midwives could get there. God looked upon the midwives favorably, and multiplied their own families.

Were the midwives 'righteous'?
Were they 'immoral'?

This story seems to be an imperfect example if you're trying to draw a distinction between morality and righteousness, but again I think it depends on how you define your terms. Killing infants is not usually the best way to make the world a better place, if that's what you mean by "moral". And Elohim prefers that Hebrew children not be killed, so the midwives were righteous in obeying Elohim if that's what you mean by "righteous". Where's the conflict?

A better example would be that Yahweh demanded child sacrifice on occasion. Traditions vary on this account, but one might ask whether parents that sacrificed their firstborn children to Yahweh, as per Exodus 22 or the earliest strand of Exodus 13, were simultaneously righteous and immoral.