Can anyone provide an alternative to determinism or non-determinism?

[Halbhh]

About free will and determinism these topics always involve both some interpretations of some scriptures -- which can be interpreted in more than one way, but are best interpreted in full context, full chapters and full books -- and then also speculations and logic often about how reality works here in this world (universe). Always some speculation is involved when one is discussing the physics (how nature works), because the physics is not settled fully. It does appear that there is likely to be some true quantum level randomness, and macro stability, etc., but even that is not a 100% certainty, but just a theory best aligned with experiments so far. So....it's not easy to say absolute conclusions about some of the most interesting physics questions, like interderminism. But since it looks like there is real randomness at the quantum level, then it's reasonable to think we are not in a clockwork universe, and the future is not predetermined, and more, that even total knowledge of all that is would not allow everything about the future (as compared to certain things!) to be predicted. Of course, any unpredictability that God designed into us would not stop Him from being able to accomplish His plans anyway.

But to interpret scripture, like a psalm, one needs to read that psalm, all of it, and get the full message. If we just pick out a verse or 3 from a psalm, we tend too often to naturally just project our expectation/ideas onto it like a screen. For example psalm 139 -- which could be taken to be a strong support for determinism.....looks different once a person truly listens to the entirety of it, and remembers this is a song David wrote, and remembers David is a good, poetic writer, because one has read other songs of his.

See reading psalm 139 seems to say all is foreknown....until....until you keep reading, and truly pay attention to the last 2 verses, which don't fit that theory in any way that makes sense to me. That's when I remember this is a song, and David a mighty poet.

David is saying in effect, Lord you have known me in the past -- you are able to search me -- and now I ask you to search me now, and help me find anything in me that should be changed.

It's not a fringe view though that we have free will, that this is consistent to scripture, but it's the mainstream view.

 

[SkyWriting]

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing.

More disturbing than creating robots who love you?

 

[looking_for_answers_]

It does appear that there is likely to be some true quantum level randomness, and macro stability, etc., but even that is not a 100% certainty, but just a theory best aligned with experiments so far. So....it's not easy to say absolute conclusions about some of the most interesting physics questions, like interderminism. But since it looks like there is real randomness at the quantum level, then it's reasonable to think we are not in a clockwork universe, and the future is not predetermined, and more, that even total knowledge of all that is would not allow everything about the future (as compared to certain things!) to be predicted.

That doesn't really solve anything though. Then, in my example, the murderer may have done what he did because of quantum die-rolling. This almost makes the eternal torture even more horrifying.

 

[A71]

God is on it. He hears millions of prayers simultaneously, he knows what every atom in the universe is doing, he knows what every computer in the world has done and is doing. He is just an awesome God

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This almost makes the eternal torture even more horrifying.

So ? In what way would this then be a bad thing to happen ? [even if eternal anything is not understood]

 

[Halbhh]

That doesn't really solve anything though. Then, in my example, the murderer may have done what he did because of quantum die-rolling. This almost makes the eternal torture even more horrifying.

To think on that we have to get really speculative. Speculations piled on one another. What is consciousness? One could see 100 theories. But it's honest to admit we can't be sure. I believe God puts a spirit, our individual spirit, into us, and this affects our consciousness, or interacts with our consciousness, altering it. So, I think there is a separate part of us, our own spirit/soul, which has agency. Or at least, can have a real effect at certain crucial moments when other psychic forces (natural biochemical/somewhat deterministic forces) are largely canceling each other out enough (see the speculations piling up. ) So, anyways, I'm thinking (speculating), our soul/spirit has agency, and is not controlled by the body -- by passions -- unless we choose (our spirit chooses) to let it be so. Of course I don't know that much about all the characteristics of the human spirit even if I knew 10 things, right? I'd just have a sense about some things only. I feel like there are moments when we make real choices, and are not truly compelled by nature and circumstances, but have a true agency. But this is only the tip of the iceberg in some ways.

 

[Tree of Life]

This doesn't address my issue though. I can't accept "phew, thank goodness I'm one of the lucky souls that was connected to a brain that ended up deciding to follow Jesus!"

My issue is that if I were to view any other authority, whether some other god or man, doing the same thing, I would find them to be monstrous. I know I'm supposed to think "well God's doing it so it must be okay" but - I can't say that without being disingenuous. If I'm being completely honest with myself, I cannot in anyway find that to be anything short of terrifying, and it's been making it really hard for me to love or worship God these past few months

Maybe you have an unbiblical image of God that you are expecting the Living God to conform to. Because he does not conform to this expectation, you find it difficult to worship him. The challenge of the Christian life is to constantly fight to cleanse ourselves (or be cleansed) of our false images of God and comprehend the true God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible raises up enemies for himself so that he may triumph over them in judgment and be glorified as a just judge of sin.

The God of the Bible ordained that mankind would fall into sin so that he may forgive their sins and be glorified as a merciful savior of sinners.

If you can't stomach that then perhaps your problem is idolatry.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, anyways, I'm thinking (speculating), our soul/spirit has agency, and is not controlled by the body -- by passions -- unless we choose (our spirit chooses) to let it be so. Of course I don't know that much about all the characteristics of the human spirit even if I knew 10 things, right? I'd just have a sense about some things only. I feel like there are moments when we make real choices, and are not truly compelled by nature and circumstances, but have a true agency. But this is only the tip of the iceberg in some ways.

Most people are led by their flesh or soul, not spirit, and few ever learn the difference.
Even fewer are ever free to follow YHWH'S Spirit when they find out it is DOable by His Grace.
The price to pay is too high for many people who prefer "self" instead of being ruled by Sovereign Creator Who Knows always what is best and right and good.

 

[Halbhh]

More disturbing than creating robots who love you?

Thank goodness we seem clearly to be neither robots nor are we puppets.

 

[Tree of Life]

Once you realize that the Father does everything for the Son and the Son does everything for the Father then you shift from having an antho-centric worldview to a theo-centric worldview. God does what he does for his own glory - not for the good of mankind.

Of course, the good of mankind is bound together with the glory of God. But it is not the primary motivation for God's actions.

 

[Halbhh]

Maybe you have an unbiblical image of God that you are expecting the Living God to conform to. Because he does not conform to this expectation, you find it difficult to worship him. The challenge of the Christian life is to constantly fight to cleanse ourselves (or be cleansed) of our false images of God and comprehend the true God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible raises up enemies for himself so that he may triumph over them in judgment and be glorified as a just judge of sin.

The God of the Bible ordained that mankind would fall into sin so that he may forgive their sins and be glorified as a merciful savior of sinners.

If you can't stomach that then perhaps your problem is idolatry.

Wonderfully there is the medicine of 1 John, which is given to us because we need it. Or perhaps essential vitamin is another good metaphor. An essential vitamin to have for good health, present naturally, but sometimes needed in a bigger dose, like a medicine. God is love, too, John wonderfully brings across to us.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

quantum die-rolling still doesn't seem to justify having a person suffer for eternity.

Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain.

Your problem seems to be both with indeterminism and determinism, and the underlying issue is the cause of what makes a person an unsaved soul destined for Hell. If there is a cause, then you can't control your own cause (determinism), which is a terrifying thought, and if there is no cause (indeterminism), then you have no control over the cause, because there isn't one. Is that about the sum of it?

Then it's really about the nature of the cause. You would say it's not about Calvinism versus Arminianism, but in a way it is. The Arminian view is indeterminism, and the Calvinistic view is a particular form of determinism. There's only one way to not have a cause, which is why indeterminism and Arminianism are fundamentally identical. In the matter of determinism, there can be multiple explanations for the nature of the cause, which is why I say that Calvinism is only a particular form of determinism. Either way, your problem, though, is that you don't have full control of that cause, because it would be circular reasoning. You can't decide the nature of the cause, because the cause determines your decisions. Either the cause has a cause, and you are not that cause, or the cause has no cause. Either way, you have no control over the outcome. So your question is how we can punish someone for what they cannot control.

My answer will probably not satisfy you, but I will give it as best I can, as quickly as I can (lunch is on the table and waiting). If we are to accept the deterministic view, then God is the original cause. If that's the case, then a Calvinistic perspective looks viable. Otherwise, we believe in a universe with billions of very important elements that are completely beyond God's control, influenced by nothing but pure randomness. If God is in control, then the only thing you can do is trust God with it.

I would also say that it's easy to look for the cause of the cause of the cause, and in the process overlook the one critical event in that chain of cause and effect, which is where you exist, right now. In other words, you overanalyze the brush strokes and miss the picture. The painting is made of many causes and effects, but you still interact with it in the same simple way as a man who never contemplates such things. That is how it was meant to be. Whatever the underlying cause, such things are only the machinery that make this reality possible. It's easier to drive a car when not obsessing with the pistons, spark plugs, lifters, coil, etc. It's easier when you just turn the key and make it go. Don't get caught up with paralysis by analysis.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

More disturbing than creating robots who love you?

I know this is the common argument. But in

To think on that we have to get really speculative. Speculations piled on one another. What is consciousness? One could see 100 theories. But it's honest to admit we can't be sure. I believe God puts a spirit, our individual spirit, into us, and this affects our consciousness, or interacts with our consciousness, altering it. So, I think there is a separate part of us, our own spirit/soul, which has agency. Or at least, can have a real effect at certain crucial moments when other psychic forces (natural biochemical/somewhat deterministic forces) are largely canceling each other out enough (see the speculations piling up. ) So, anyways, I'm thinking (speculating), our soul/spirit has agency, and is not controlled by the body -- by passions -- unless we choose (our spirit chooses) to let it be so. Of course I don't know that much about all the characteristics of the human spirit even if I knew 10 things, right? I'd just have a sense about some things only. I feel like there are moments when we make real choices, and are not truly compelled by nature and circumstances, but have a true agency. But this is only the tip of the iceberg in some ways.

Absolutely, but even the supernatural is subject to the same issue. My soul/spirit, hopefully, acts and chooses in rational, non-random ways. If it's not random, then it is determined, just not by physical laws in this case. I certainly wouldn't be able to calculate the soul's decision, but that's just because of complexity.

 

[Halbhh]

Otherwise, we believe in a universe with billions of very important elements that are completely beyond God's control, influenced by nothing but pure randomness.

Interesting post, but this part could hide a bunch of complexity, and be the place to look further. God would be able to handle natural indeterminism (from quantum level randomness) quite easily. (Natural randomness still allows macro stability -- steel bridges last and last before they finally rust and fall down, after some unpredictably long time, after random bits of rust progress too far, etc.)

And human spirit unpredictability also, if that exists, additionally.

Neither of those would be any kind of serious problem for Him evidently. He can accomplish His plans. And that's not all. He could easily see where your choices are leading you, where your path is heading, etc. But, He may have given us a true agency (by His design), maybe having nothing to do with this natural physics here at all). If He made us able to unpredictably change course at times, that would not at all prevent Him from accomplishing all He plans to accomplish, nor be even much of a challenge we'd guess.

 

[SkyWriting]

I know this is the common argument.

It my personal experience. I always wish the best for people and if they
do not choose me to be with me, then I feel that is best for them. It may
hurt me, but I love them and let them go.

 

[Cat Loaf You]

If you are atheist then you can't have free will according to your point of view because after big bang laws of nature make it impossible for something to be random , everything was set the moment big bang occured and your thinking process is just atoms in your brain making electric sygnal for your body to do something .

If you believe God then you have free will to choose but world is predestined aswell . You could not for example destroy Isreal because God said he will rescue them in the end . You can choose to fight Jews and kill them but you will never success.

So in both cases you are predestinated somehow .

If you are Christian your good deeds are predestinated aswell because they are made by God with use of Holy Spirit which is inside of you . You had free will to choose God but God knew that you would choose him so he alredy prepared life for you.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Your problem seems to be both with indeterminism and determinism, and the underlying issue is the cause of what makes a person an unsaved soul destined for Hell. If there is a cause, then you can't control your own cause (determinism), which is a terrifying thought, and if there is no cause (indeterminism), then you have no control over the cause, because there isn't one. Is that about the sum of it?

Then it's really about the nature of the cause. You would say it's not about Calvinism versus Arminianism, but in a way it is. The Arminian view is indeterminism, and the Calvinistic view is a particular form of determinism. There's only one way to not have a cause, which is why indeterminism and Arminianism are fundamentally identical. In the matter of determinism, there can be multiple explanations for the nature of the cause, which is why I say that Calvinism is only a particular form of determinism. Either way, your problem, though, is that you don't have full control of that cause, because it would be circular reasoning. You can't decide the nature of the cause, because the cause determines your decisions. Either the cause has a cause, and you are not that cause, or the cause has no cause. Either way, you have no control over the outcome. So your question is how we can punish someone for what they cannot control.

My answer will probably not satisfy you, but I will give it as best I can, as quickly as I can (lunch is on the table and waiting). If we are to accept the deterministic view, then God is the original cause. If that's the case, then a Calvinistic perspective looks viable. Otherwise, we believe in a universe with billions of very important elements that are completely beyond God's control, influenced by nothing but pure randomness. If God is in control, then the only thing you can do is trust God with it.

I would also say that it's easy to look for the cause of the cause of the cause, and in the process overlook the one critical event in that chain of cause and effect, which is where you exist, right now. In other words, you overanalyze the brush strokes and miss the picture. The painting is made of many causes and effects, but you still interact with it in the same simple way as a man who never contemplates such things. That is how it was meant to be. Whatever the underlying cause, such things are only the machinery that make this reality possible. It's easier to drive a car when not obsessing with the pistons, spark plugs, lifters, coil, etc. It's easier when you just turn the key and make it go. Don't get caught up with paralysis by analysis.

Very thought-provoking, thanks. I really appreciate this. It seems like most Christian's don't get this (and honestly I'm really hesitant to try to convey out of fear it may trigger depression in others the way it has in me) and as a result it makes me feel very isolated and lonely in this.

I guess one of the reasons this makes me anxious is that if I accept that God would be justified in passively or actively allowing eternal torment of a soul that just was on the "wrong" path of causality, then I must also accept that, were I to find out after death that some other god was actually real, they would likewise be justified in having me tortured for eternity.

Not to get transhumanist or singularitarian, but the idea that this may even be technologically possible eventually, as computing, AI, and brain science advance, possibly even before I die, makes the thought even bleaker

 

[Halbhh]

I know this is the common argument. But in


Absolutely, but even the supernatural is subject to the same issue. My soul/spirit, hopefully, acts and chooses in rational, non-random ways. If it's not random, then it is determined, just not by physical laws in this case. I certainly wouldn't be able to calculate the soul's decision, but that's just because of complexity.

There's a 3rd and a 4th possibility also, to my view. The spirit could operate by laws unconnected to nature here (physics) entirely. It may or may not be deterministic, but I'd tend to guess it is not. Further, it may even be so subtle in it's laws we need a new paradigm and not just the idea of indeterminism. Or, or...more. Like a deterministic spirit in an indeterministic nature would still be very interesting and have some unpredictability. And vise-versa. Several permutations of these. And what of how the 2 interact? There's another area that could be complex. My feeling/guessing is that both nature (physics) has indeterminism (with macro stability and partial predictability), and also our human spirits have some kind of effective unpredictability.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

If you are atheist then you can't have free will according to your point of view because after big bang laws of nature make it impossible for something to be random , everything was set the moment big bang occured and your thinking process is just atoms in your brain making electric sygnal for your body to do something .

If you believe God then you have free will to choose but world is predestined aswell.

Think about an event, any event. Why did it happen? What caused it? It was either caused by preceding events, or it was random. This holds true whether or not God exists

 

[looking_for_answers_]

There's a 3rd and a 4th possibility also, to my view. The spirit could operate by laws unconnected to nature here (physics) entirely. It may or may not be deterministic, but I'd tend to guess it is not. Further, it may even be so subtle in it's laws we need a new paradigm and not just the idea of indeterminism. Or, or...more. Like a deterministic spirit in an indeterministic nature would still be very interesting and have some unpredictability. And vise-versa. Several permutations of these. And what of how the 2 interact? There's another area that could be complex. My feeling/guessing is that both nature (physics) has indeterminism (with macro stability and partial predictability), and also our human spirits have some kind of effective unpredictability.

What can non-determinism be except random though? Also, it should be noted that "unpredictable" =/= "non-deterministic"