Can anyone provide an alternative to determinism or non-determinism?

[looking_for_answers_]

It my personal experience. I always wish the best for people and if they
do not choose me to be with me, then I feel that is best for them. It may
hurt me, but I love them and let them go.

Sorry, my post got messed up

 

[looking_for_answers_]

To think on that we have to get really speculative. Speculations piled on one another. What is consciousness? One could see 100 theories. But it's honest to admit we can't be sure. I believe God puts a spirit, our individual spirit, into us, and this affects our consciousness, or interacts with our consciousness, altering it. So, I think there is a separate part of us, our own spirit/soul, which has agency. Or at least, can have a real effect at certain crucial moments when other psychic forces (natural biochemical/somewhat deterministic forces) are largely canceling each other out enough (see the speculations piling up. ) So, anyways, I'm thinking (speculating), our soul/spirit has agency, and is not controlled by the body -- by passions -- unless we choose (our spirit chooses) to let it be so. Of course I don't know that much about all the characteristics of the human spirit even if I knew 10 things, right? I'd just have a sense about some things only. I feel like there are moments when we make real choices, and are not truly compelled by nature and circumstances, but have a true agency. But this is only the tip of the iceberg in some ways.

Absolutely, but even the supernatural is subject to the same issue. My soul/spirit, hopefully, acts and chooses in rational, non-random ways. If it's not random, then it is determined, just not by physical laws in this case. I certainly wouldn't be able to calculate the soul's decision, but that's just because of complexity.

 

[SkyWriting]

I guess one of the reasons this makes me anxious is that if I accept that God would be justified in passively or actively allowing eternal torment of a soul that just was on the "wrong" path of causality, then I must also accept that, were I to find out after death that some other god was actually real, they would likewise be justified in having me tortured for eternity.

Torment. Torment is self imposed misery. Not external.
And "Eternal" is not a billion years plus.
"Eternal" means that time does not exist there.
Even Hell will be destroyed in the future.
So "eternal" is not going to last forever either.
"Eternal" just means that time does not pass there.
Not as we think it anyway.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Torment. Torment is self imposed misery.

And what caused that person's mind to be in such a state that they "chose" to self-impose it? Think about causality. Eventually the causes that got their mind/soul to be in that state end up being external causes

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Both, really, but I'm actually pretty okay with the idea that all our actions are ultimately a single flow of causality. It's just that in the light of this, hell has become more terrifying than I ever realized before

Is it necessary to think of causality as a single flow? Maybe the answer is in causes, first, and secondary with multiple chains. When considering reality, under a microscope, things get more complicated, more complex than they appear on the surface.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My soul/spirit, hopefully, acts and chooses in rational, non-random ways. If it's not random, then it is determined, just not by physical laws in this case. I certainly wouldn't be able to calculate the soul's decision, but that's just because of complexity.

Most people never hear YHWH'S Voice, the SHEPHERD'S VOICE(JESUS), nor even their own spirit.

Realizing this, YHWH Willing, and seeking and trusting Him for what only He is able to accomplish clears everything up. He Promises.

 

[SkyWriting]

And what caused that person's mind to be in such a state that they "chose" to self-impose it? Think about causality. Eventually the causes that got their mind/soul to be in that state end up being external causes

I don't agree. People can learn from their experiences, or they can choose not to learn.
There is no way you can trace my decisions back to a time before I decide to make them.
Just yesterday my wife acknowledges that she "always" burns one particular food on the
stove. She chooses not to learn from her mistake until she decides to learn.

In 12 step programs, people choose to do things differently, which is go to
meetings rather than do what they are avoiding.

 

[chilehed]

Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random.

All events are determined by the events before it, including random events.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Thank goodness we seem clearly to be neither robots nor are we puppets.

Our decisions are made based on some rules, no? Very complicated ones, yes, but rules nonetheless. They are not random. So if someone were capable of viewing the rules by which I make decisions, could they not predict what decisions I will make with 100% accuracy?

 

[Tree of Life]

On a libertarian note, are you familiar with the concept of Agent Causation?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

All events are determined by the events before it, including random events.

Not when YHWH is in charge, ruling, directing in a person's life, or a nation, or a people.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Our decisions are made based on some rules, no? Very complicated ones, yes, but rules nonetheless. They are not random. So if someone were capable of viewing the rules by which I make decisions, could they not predict what decisions I will make with 100% accuracy?

Shouldn't be, no.
Not as YHWH desires, instructs, and directs His people, born again ones, disciples and followers of Jesus.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't agree. People can learn from their experiences, or they can choose not to learn.

And , as YHWH'S WORD Says Clearly, little children can learn (and few do) from YHWH, to live as He Says and to DO as He says every day.
Nothing at all contrary to His Word, nothing random.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Not when YHWH is in charge, ruling, directing in a person's life, or a nation, or a people.

YHWH would fall under the category of causes outside of an agent. In that case, God's will would be one of the rules guiding an agent's decisions

And , as YHWH'S WORD Says Clearly, little children can learn (and few do) from YHWH, to live as He Says and to DO as He says every day.
Nothing at all contrary to His Word, nothing random.

What would cause a person to learn vs. not learn? Under the exact same circumstances, do you believe that a person who did not learn would have been able to learn, had the conditions been precisely the same?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What would cause a person to learn vs. not learn? Under the exact same circumstances, do you believe that a person who did not learn would have been able to learn, had the conditions been precisely the same?

Conditions , as it appears you have been stating them and considering them,
do not change nor even affect what is important.
If any person, in any conditions, seeks YHWH, and keeps seeking YHWH (YHWH'S KINGDOM , to be a part of this, or at first, to be set free from the power of the devil that all the world is under, and to be set free from sin, which all men are consigned to)
seeking
like a deer in the mountains panting for water, going and going and going looking for water ,

then they will find YHWH, and be SATISFIED, and be made WHOLE (healed and saved and complete, lacking nothing for life (even if it is then ended, cut short) ).

 

[chilehed]

Not when YHWH is in charge, ruling, directing in a person's life, or a nation, or a people.

An event that YHWH determines isn't determined by anything?

That's a truly incoherent thing to say.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

An event that YHWH determines isn't determined by anything?

That's a truly incoherent thing to say.

In other sections where it is permitted to talk about incoherent things, more has been discussed and can be discovered there that is truly of life and death importance.

 

[Linktogunner]

I don't think the 'cause and effect' is that linear when dealing with free will. Something my girlfriend says could cause me to respond in many different ways, for example. Or nor at all... either way the preceeding 'cause' is just there, it's up to me how I choose to respond.

All things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

This doesn't address my issue though. I can't accept "phew, thank goodness I'm one of the lucky souls that was connected to a brain that ended up deciding to follow Jesus!"

My issue is that if I were to view any other authority, whether some other god or man, doing the same thing, I would find them to be monstrous. I know I'm supposed to think "well God's doing it so it must be okay" but - I can't say that without being disingenuous. If I'm being completely honest with myself, I cannot in anyway find that to be anything short of terrifying, and it's been making it really hard for me to love or worship God these past few months

I started a thread on this topic recently, you might find it helpful, maybe some things to think about and consider. It is a difficult issue, and people tend to oversimplify it into mischaracterizations and strawmen, and without taking into consideration the whole context of Scripture while applying their view on this important subject.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

I started a thread on this topic recently, you might find it helpful, maybe some things to think about and consider. It is a difficult issue, and people tend to oversimplify it into mischaracterizations and strawmen, and without taking into consideration the whole context of Scripture while applying their view on this important subject.

Thanks, will take a look when I get a chance