Can anyone provide an alternative to determinism or non-determinism?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

But, given content of our previous discussion, I would by no means ever consider it fair to eternally torture someone. I'm not even sure it's really fair to punish them while they're alive, as opposed to just taking measures to ensure that they can no longer harm society.

In order to reconcile this with God being fair, just, and loving, I need to redefine what fair, just, and loving mean, and their new meanings in this scenario are pretty frightening if it's loving to create a conscious entity that was destined for eternal torment and was never truly capable of avoiding it

I agree with that judgement.

Here's another thought. If there is a truly random component to an individual's decision making process . . . and the individual lives eternally . . . then over eternity every possible decision will be made by that individual, including choosing evil unexpectedly.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow.

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

I would love to accept libertarian free will but honestly it is so riddled with incoherencies that I just cannot, but even if it were true somehow, it is still not a satifying answer.

Compatablism ultimately seems like it's just a semantic re-working of incompatablism. Sure, you are the "ultimate" factor in that your brain ultimately sends the signal to make a decision, but even that is either caused or random...

I've been struggling with this and looking for a satisfying answer for nearly a year now. I am deep in a crisis of faith and don't understand how we can consider God "loving". Most Christians who write on this subject do so from the wrong point of view, or just do not seem to grasp the "determinism and indetermisim" vs "moral responsibility" dichotemy. A lot of the Christians I've read seem to think that indeterminism somehow answers the problem, but quantum die-rolling still doesn't seem to justify having a person suffer for eternity.

I feel so alone in this. I've only brought it up with a handful of people in the real world and none of them were able to grasp this so I gave up. The Christians online are the same, and generally seem to think that the discussion is Calvanism vs. Arminianism, which is entirely missing the point.

Thanks and God Bless to all.

Paul writes on this best. I would suggest looking that up.

Speaking to someone who realizes they have no free will, he basically argues that they should realize their predicament and beg God for mercy because of the path God has them on.

Likewise, Jesus, no surprise, said the same thing, effectively. God guides even the squirrels to food, or birds, of course He manages people.

On hell, I would suggest looking at alternative possibilities then the one you are settled on.

God tests us, that is part of the way of making us realize what is true and what is not true.

In the end, "the whole earth will be full of the knowledge of God".

As for the fate of institutions, they pass. As for celestial beings, I would try and avoid speculation. But, if you must for some reason, keep an open mind.

 

[looking_for_answers_]

Paul writes on this best. I would suggest looking that up.

Speaking to someone who realizes they have no free will, he basically argues that they should realize their predicament and beg God for mercy because of the path God has them on.

This is why I have gone from seeing God as a deeply loving being to a deeply frightening one

On hell, I would suggest looking at alternative possibilities then the one you are settled on.

I have been in the long, long process of doing this, but no logically coherent alternative has shown up yet

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

This is why I have gone from seeing God as a deeply loving being to a deeply frightening one



I have been in the long, long process of doing this, but no logically coherent alternative has shown up yet

OK Here's another possibility to consider. You have heard about near death experiences. What if God, at the time of death, gives one final chance for individuals to cast their lot into his love and forgiveness vs their judgement? One doesn't have to say He does that for everyone, perhaps for most, others having made firm choices in their lifetime. Could you accept that as a reasonable hypothesis about God and His goodness in dealing with us mortals?

 

[looking_for_answers_]

OK Here's another possibility to consider. You have heard about near death experiences. What if God, at the time of death, gives one final chance for individuals to cast their lot into his love and forgiveness vs their judgement? One doesn't have to say He does that for everyone, perhaps for most, others having made firm choices in their lifetime. Could you accept that as a reasonable hypothesis about God and His goodness in dealing with us mortals?

Well, this doesn't really get around the issue though. Why would my decision at that point be any more free than at any other point? It still doesn't get away from the "determined or not determined" issue

Edit: this does sort of solve the issue, but only because I personally believe that in this situation no one (or very few people) would turn Him down. Save perhaps the devil himself. But I understand that most christians would probably not agree with me.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

[God even controlling the wicked]
This is why I have gone from seeing God as a deeply loving being to a deeply frightening one


[alternatives to typical depictions of hell being eternal torture and no good]
I have been in the long, long process of doing this, but no logically coherent alternative has shown up yet

Okay, this is an unusually deep response...

On God controlling the wicked, Paul was talking to someone who was *realizing* God was forcing him/her to do bad things. That is a rare realization. That message is to Christians, not unbelievers.

First of all, unbelievers would never read that far into Paul even to get to that message. They do not even believe God exists. They definitely are not afraid of God's wrath. They do not have "the Spirit of Fear of God" in them. As it was said Jesus does.

Think of it as a problem. What is the answer? It is really rather simple. Repent. Be the praying one who is so horrified of their error filled condition they find themselves in that you dare not even look up to Heaven, and just beg God, sincerely, for mercy.

Joseph's brothers attempted to murder him. Yet, when he was in power, he pointed out, "What you intended for evil, God intended for good".

Problem is, most evil, people intend for evil.

That is just the way we are. If you try to do good, you can end up doing bad. If you are really, really convinced you are good, you could just be that evil.

But, if you are capable of pulling the breaks, and realizing that you are wrong... then, you do receive mercy. The trick is to stick to the Gospels, the message of Christ.

On eternal hell being taken as it is usually taught:

God opens and closes doors. So...do...we... And, we have to believe God opens and closes those doors. If you have not started the path of going down all of the possibilities in the Bible, then you really have a long path ahead of you. (Not that I think this of you.)

God can make the King of Babylon think he is a donkey for a day, eating hay. God makes a lot of people think they will reincarnate into butterflies. And less apt, frogs and fish, and ugly pigs.

The fire is eternal, as it is always ready at bay.

But, the only ones specifically said to go to literal eternal torture - are the beast, satan, false prophet - but these are deeply metaphoric, and can mean many things. Way beyond even what is in the Gospels, or what is in the Law and Prophets.

Even there, what is fire? God has a heart of fire, as his eyes are fire. And windows are the heart of the soul. Will fire go away? No. But, fire can be good, as well as bad.

With the new, eternal bodies... we can go up, we can go down. We probably we will have far more intense imaginations, and far more intense responsibilities.

One day, we know, there will be a new book written. That day, we do not know when. But, until then, this is what we have.