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Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

eclipsenow

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Because you don't understand the scriptures I alluded to in my description/interpretations of them, now I'm the "bad guy"? Really?
It's OK to think outside the box of religious doctrines!
It depends on the 'doctrines' doesn't it?
Basically 'doctrines' are summaries of what we can know from the bible - and when newcomers on the scene start sounding a bit different to those doctrines - I want to see some very clear biblical references that back their 'new' ideas - or I'm not going to listen to them, am I?

In fact, Jesus invites us to think with His Mind, and to understand that God's thoughts and His ways are not ours. Isaiah 55:8-9, John 16:13.
Yet it's not a subjective dive into navel-gazing either.

2 Timothy 3:
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

That is, I can know everything I need to know to please God in my life by repenting and asking for Him to help me understand the bible - and then doing due diligence in my study of his word. This, without relying on some kind of subjective navel-gazing dreamland of my own creation!
 
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Earburner

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It depends on the 'doctrines' doesn't it?
Basically 'doctrines' are summaries of what we can know from the bible - and when newcomers on the scene start sounding a bit different to those doctrines - I want to see some very clear biblical references that back their 'new' ideas - or I'm not going to listen to them, am I?
There is a very stark difference between biblical doctrine and denominational religious doctrines.

You know the bible as much as anyone here. Because I was addressing you specifically, I spoke somewhat in paraphrase, signaling the references by certain words that I used.
But since you can't locate them, I will address each of my ten points with a biblical reference. That should help out. Sorry about that.
Edited:
1. Jesus' temple was his physical body,
John 2:21
2. For all who are Born Again, we are now His Body. From His Heavenly perspective, what does that really mean to present our bodies (ourselves) as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God?
1 Cor. 12:27, Rom. 12:1-3
3. In Christ, I died. But nevertheless, I live by Him that dwells within me. How far can we go with that thinking?

Gal. 2:20
4. Is the will of God being done "in" the planet earth, or is it being done "in" the earth of our "earthen vessels"?
Mat. 6:10, 28:18, 2 Cor. 4:7, Col. 1:16, 1 John 5:8, Rev. 53.
5. In the New Heaven and the NEW Earth,
what do the words mean, that there was no literal temple seen, but rather God the Father Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it?
Rev. 22:22
6. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KoG.
If not, then what within us shall enable it to be so?
1 Cor. 15:50
7. When Jesus Resurrected into NEW Life, and Ascended, was there mortal blood in His veins, after it was shed for our sins? Back to item #6.
Luke 24:49
8. Jesus walked through walls in the upper room, and is alive forever more by the Spirit of God. Being changed into His likeness on that Day, will we not inherit the same?
John 20:19
9. "The meek shall inherit the earth". Now seriously, one has to honestly dwell on that, in relation to what the Spirit says through Peter in in 2 Peter 3:10-12.
Mat. 5:5
10. Aren't we suppose to be looking for a NEW Heaven and a NEW earth, whose builder and maker is God?
What has He made that's NEW, since Jesus' resurrection?
We all, who are Born again, do know!
But many dare not to say it, because it flies in the face of the religious doctrines of all of "church-ianity".
God the Father has made God the Son to be flesh, and to be the Firstborn among many brethren, having this [His] treasure in our "earthen vessels".
Romans 8:29, 2 Corinthians 4:7
 
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eclipsenow

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There is a very stark difference between biblical doctrine and denominational religious doctrines.

You know the bible as much as anyone here. Because I was addressing you specifically, I spoke somewhat in paraphrase, signaling the references by certain words that I used.
But since you can't locate them, I will address each of my nine points with a biblical reference. That should help out.
1. Jesus' temple was his physical body,
John 2:21
2. For all who are Born Again, we are now His Body. From His Heavenly perspective, what does that really mean to present our bodies (ourselves) as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God?
1 Cor. 12:27, Gal. 2:20
3. In Christ, I died. But nevertheless, I live by Him that dwells within me. How far can we go with that thinking?
Rom. 12:1-2
4. Is the will of God being done "in" the planet earth, or is it being done "in" the earth of our "earthen vessels"?
Gal. 2:20
5. In the New Heaven and the NEW Earth,
what do the words mean, that there was no literal temple seen, but rather God the Father Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it?
6. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KoG.
If not, then what within us shall enable it to be so?
7. When Jesus Resurrected into NEW Life, and Ascended, was there mortal blood in His veins, after it was shed for our sins? Back to item #6.
8. Jesus walked through walls in the upper room, and is alive forever more by the Spirit of God. Being changed into His likeness on that Day, will we not inherit the same?
9. "The meek shall inherit the earth". Now seriously, one has to honestly dwell on that, in relation to what the Spirit says through Peter in in 2 Peter 3:10-12.
I think you're reading too much into point 6.
We WILL be physical beings - but not the old nature flesh and blood but the new. The point is we must die before we can be raised to new life. The whole physical universe will be changed as well. I'm not sure what problem you have with this, but you do seem to have a problem.
 
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Earburner

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I think you're reading too much into point 6.
We WILL be physical beings - but not the old nature flesh and blood but the new. The point is we must die before we can be raised to new life. The whole physical universe will be changed as well. I'm not sure what problem you have with this, but you do seem to have a problem.
I am having no problem with point six. On the day of Jesus return, all who are alive at that time will be flesh and blood. However, we who do have His Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:8-9), will be changed into His immortality, in an instant. All others who are alive will be consumed by His flaming fire. 2 Thes. 1:8.
That also means that anyone who died many years ago without the Holy Spirit, no matter how much of a Christian they thought they were, every day of their life until death, they WON'T and can't be resurrected with the Saints. They died as being ONLY flesh and blood.
 
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eclipsenow

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Earburner

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We WILL be physical beings
Is Jesus ONLY a physical being? No, He is not!
And neither shall we be only physical. We will be resurrected into His likeness, in every way.
What did Jesus mean in John 3[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
In Him, right now, we who are Born Again. Are no longer only "flesh and blood", but rather are now flesh and blood and spirit, a NEW creature/creation.
 
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Earburner

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I think you need to do some work on the goodness of this created order and how much God loves what he made, and how it is not going to be trashed, but upgraded. Here's a good start
http://socialissues.org.au/pdf/reports/SIE_Environment-A_Christian_Response.pdf
I believe that 2 Peter 3:10-12 says it all for this planet earth, and everything in it.
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
 
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eclipsenow

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Is Jesus ONLY a physical being? No, He is not!
And neither shall we be only physical. We will be resurrected into His likeness, in every way.
What did Jesus mean in John 3[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
In Him, right now, we who are Born Again. Are no longer only "flesh and blood", but rather are now flesh and blood and spirit, a NEW creature/creation.

It's not that this old universe is 'bad' - it's that we are sinners and must be born again via faith in Jesus death and resurrection and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. You're conflating salvation with metaphysics of this universe and what it is to be human. But being human is being a physical being with neurochemistry and hormones and a heart that beats and a brain - all integrated perfectly into the metaphysical stuff of 'mind' and 'soul' and 'consciousness' that the philosophers have debated for millennia. We are both physical and spiritual beings, whether saved or condemned. Our 'souls' change somewhat when we are saved, but we might still struggle with the stuff of this world - whether depression or other mental issues - or physical maladies. But in the new world we will be both physical and spiritual - and to deny this is to deny the resurrection.

Try this on how to view the environment and universe God has made us
http://socialissues.org.au/pdf/reports/SIE_Environment-A_Christian_Response.pdf
 
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eclipsenow

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[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
In Him, right now, we who are Born Again. Are no longer only "flesh and blood", but rather are now flesh and blood and spirit, a NEW creature/creation.

(Sighs)
Are you trying to say that non-Christians don't have a 'soul'?
 
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Earburner

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It's not that this old universe is 'bad' - it's that we are sinners and must be born again via faith in Jesus death and resurrection and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. You're conflating salvation with metaphysics of this universe and what it is to be human. But being human is being a physical being with neurochemistry and hormones and a heart that beats and a brain - all integrated perfectly into the metaphysical stuff of 'mind' and 'soul' and 'consciousness' that the philosophers have debated for millennia. We are both physical and spiritual beings, whether saved or condemned. Our 'souls' change somewhat when we are saved, but we might still struggle with the stuff of this world - whether depression or other mental issues - or physical maladies. But in the new world we will be both physical and spiritual - and to deny this is to deny the resurrection.

Try this on how to view the environment and universe God has made us
http://socialissues.org.au/pdf/reports/SIE_Environment-A_Christian_Response.pdf
I do believe that I will be Bible all the way on this.
Rev. 20[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
 
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Earburner

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(Sighs)
Are you trying to say that non-Christians don't have a 'soul'?
Every person born of flesh, became a soul*, the minute they breathed oxygenated air.
No one is "given" a soul.
* Hebrew is "nephesh", which means animal life.
 
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eclipsenow

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Every person born of flesh, became a soul*, the minute they breathed oxygenated air.
No one is "given" a soul.
* Hebrew is "nephesh", which means animal life.

Yes, which again emphasises how physical we are.
So you're talking about the Holy Spirit when we become Christians?
Sure.
I'm still not sure what you're trying to emphasise about the new world though.
This article seems pretty spot on though. I'll hand you over to Andrew Moody who has written for client's of ours.

I finished my last post by arguing that Christ has made heaven our home. He has given us confidence to enter the heavenly tabernacle and citizenship in the heavenly Jerusalem. But is this a permanent thing? Is heaven our future or simply an interim reality until the restoration of the earth?
Previous generations of evangelicals might have been quick to answer that heaven is our eternal home. Their hymns look forward to a “sweet by and by;” to “soaring through worlds unknown.” But many of us today would see heaven as a temporary stage we pass through while we await for our real dwelling – the renewed earth – where we’ll live in resurrected bodies. Our hope, in other words, is earthly rather than heavenly.
Now, as I said in my first post, I have no argument with this reaffirmation of physical reality. The New Testament seems pretty clear that when we die we our bodies will sleep while our souls go to be with Jesus; and that when Jesus returns he will both bring us with him, and restore our bodies along with everything else. Our ultimate destiny is to live as embodied people in a renewed world.

But does this mean that heaven isn’t our home? Or that the intermediate state (between our death and the resurrection) is so inferior to our embodied life that it can kind of be skipped-over in our thinking?
I don’t think so. That would be to define us primarily by our substance (our physical natures) rather than by our relationship with God. Rather, as Paul sees it, it is “better by far” to leave the body and be with Christ (Phil 1:22-23). If we have to choose then we should “prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord,” (2 Cor 5:8).
Heaven vs Earth?
Nor is it clear that earth should be considered our ultimate home rather than heaven. A biblical case can be made that the saints in glory will one day leave heaven and resettle earth after its renewal. But the Bible might support other possibilities as well:
Sometimes it seems that earthly reality is to be assimilated to heaven as when Paul contrasts the glorious humanity of the “heavenly” man, Christ, with the earthly man, Adam. [1]
Sometimes it seems that heaven and earth are to merged into a single reality where saints and angels come together in the presence of God. [2]
Sometimes it seems that both earth and heaven will be removed and replaced by a new reality “which cannot be shaken,” (Heb 1:10-12; 12:26-29)
Sometimes it sounds like Jesus will come and fetch us and take us away from earth to heaven (John 14:3).
No doubt these perspectives can be reconciled in the mind of God and will be reconciled in reality when Jesus returns. But their diversity should warn us against overly-definite theories about the form of our future cosmos.
Shadows and Reality
Similar cautions apply to the correspondence between present and future reality. Many evangelicals now like to imagine the future as an idealised form of the present. This is fine on one level – the Bible itself does this. It depicts the coming kingdom as a time when people will live past one hundred years of age and bear healthy children (Is 65:20-23). It describes a restructured Jerusalem and a giant temple (Eze 40-48). These Old Testament examples must be non-literal: the New Testament speaks of an end to both death and married life; it says that there will one day be no temple (Mark 12:25; Rev 21:22).
But the New Testament visions must be at least partly symbolic too: when John describes Jerusalem as an immense form of the Most Holy Place built out of gemstones according to sacred geometry; when he speaks of the tree of life growing on both sides of the river that flows from the throne of God and the Lamb.
So here again we need to exercise caution. C. S. Lewis says that those who confuse present joys with heaven are like a little boy who thinks that sex must involve eating chocolate. Since food is the highest pleasure he can imagine, he sees every other pleasure in its light.
This is a danger for us too. Our renewed appreciation for this world and its future risks confusing secondary realities with their source and centre. The main thing we need to be clear about, and most excited about, is that we will live with God and see his face.
Heaven Now
Yet, despite Lewis’ warnings, this is the part of the future is available to us today. Paul writes that “God, who said, ‘let light shine out of darkness,’ made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ,” (2Cor 4:6). This is the start of a new earth and heaven! Those who know Christ have received new creation (2Cor 5:17) and already glimpsed the visio-dei, the centerpiece of the world to come.
Indeed the whole of the Christian life participates in this future. Christian life is lived through the power of Christ’s resurrected life. The Spirit who gave him new life (Rom 1:4; 8:11) now brings Christ’s life to us, baptizing us into Christ so that we can change and be remade (Rom 8:10; Rom 6:3-4 c.f. 1Cor 12:12-13). The Spirit unites us with Christ, making us part of his reality so we become his body, his temple.
Richard Sibbes the “heavenly doctor” of the Anglican Puritans writes that the Christian life participates in heaven. The “Church of God is the house where God frameth new creatures … the beginning of glory.” He says that in the Church we meet the middle paradise between Eden and Glory; the naked reality of which the Old Testament testified.
The River from Heaven
I began this series of posts looking at the idea of heaven as the point at which God meets the cosmos and his blessings flow out into creation. But with the ascension of Christ and the sending of his Spirit that stream of blessing has broken out on earth. It wells up to eternal life in those come to Christ; it flows out from those who belong to Jesus (John 4:13-14; 7:38-39). It summons us – even while remain on earth – to the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24).
Heaven is coming, yet it is already here. It can be glimpsed now; participated in now; experienced now.
Heaven Now (3) - The Gospel Coalition | Australia
 
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Timtofly

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Adam and Eve were created having innocence only, being void of the knowledge of evil or good, and were without eternal existence of any kind.
Still no verse to make this point. Human theology is not exactly Scripture, but human understanding. There was literally no sin at all. There was no law that even referenced sin. If they did not have eternal existence, how long of a "shelf life" was given to humanity?

Having no knowledge of good and evil was the state of all existence. We have no idea when the angels rebelled. There was no sin and death, period.
 
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eclipsenow

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Still no verse to make this point. Human theology is not exactly Scripture, but human understanding. There was literally no sin at all. There was no law that even referenced sin. If they did not have eternal existence, how long of a "shelf life" was given to humanity?

Having no knowledge of good and evil was the state of all existence. We have no idea when the angels rebelled. There was no sin and death, period.
Not sure about that.

Modern American Creationists have lost the 'grittiness' of Eden - and I think make it into a very Pollyanna sort of place. However, check these thoughts on death before the fall from John Calvin - one of the Reformers - way before Charles Darwin ever made us question the origins of humans. (Calvin lived 1509 to 1564.) Calvin is basically a theological checklist for modern Anglican orthodoxy. And here he is arguing what death before the fall would have looked like. I wish American creationists actually read outside their theological comfort zone and realised there is so much more to Genesis than their dry, reductionist 'shopping list' of what God did when. There's so much more going on!
Did death occur before the Fall? - Common-questions
 
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Timtofly

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Not sure about that.

Modern American Creationists have lost the 'grittiness' of Eden - and I think make it into a very Pollyanna sort of place. However, check these thoughts on death before the fall from John Calvin - one of the Reformers - way before Charles Darwin ever made us question the origins of humans. (Calvin lived 1509 to 1564.) Calvin is basically a theological checklist for modern Anglican orthodoxy. And here he is arguing what death before the fall would have looked like. I wish American creationists actually read outside their theological comfort zone and realised there is so much more to Genesis than their dry, reductionist 'shopping list' of what God did when. There's so much more going on!
Did death occur before the Fall? - Common-questions
I am pretty sure God explained exactly how that worked from Genesis 1:28 to Genesis 2:6. Man's opinion (knowledge/science) comes directly from the same dude who used a serpent to deceive Eve. Satan started with the Greeks and was in every step of science all the way to modern evolution called theistic evolution. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2 was talking about this deception. This virtual reality of a 14 billion year old universe is what is going to dissolve in fire at the Second Coming, all the works of man along with this virtual universe. Of course there is not really anything to dissolve in the firmament, it will just roll back like a theater screen, and dissappear. Satan's deception gone in seconds, without a puff of smoke or energy wasted. All those stars landing on earth, because they are just angels and will land as figs blowing in the wind.

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

"And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

There is no division between the spiritual and physical. It is all one single creation. The spiritual is not an alternate reality.

When a human is blind, the sun is the same reality to that blind person as to a seeing human. There are not two different realities because one human is blind. Adam's flesh is spiritually blind, so no alternate reality. There is only one equally spiritual and physical created reality. And ironically symbolism in the Bible can work the same way as trying to explain the sun to a blind person who is very stubborn with preconceived ideas from the mind of a deceptive enemy. Except symbolism is based on eye sight, and a blind person has never had sight. So we are in bad shape, because we have never seen the spiritual side of creation and the Bible uses symbolism to explain what we are missing, and many still cannot "see it".

Then many get carried away with human imagination and go in the opposite direction.
 
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eclipsenow

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I am pretty sure God explained exactly how that worked from Genesis 1:28 to Genesis 2:6.
That ignores the literary analysis of the text, the style of writing, the repeated number symbolism, and about 2000 years of theology and science and philosophy. Other than that, you done great!:doh:

Man's opinion (knowledge/science) comes directly from the same dude who used a serpent to deceive Eve.
Nah. Science comes from empirical observation, induction, data, etc. These are methods that Christians have used to expand our knowledge of THIS material universe, while they might also practice metaphysics to speculate on other worlds, and the bible to read about the spiritual universe.

There is no division between the spiritual and physical. It is all one single creation. The spiritual is not an alternate reality.
This also ignores 2000 years of theology and science and philosophy. Other than that, you done great!:doh:

Let me quote the Westminster Confession of faith - a summary of this thing called 'doctrine' you scorn so much. Doctrines are ideas found in the bible - and just very neat summaries of them that very smart people have studied and simplified into "Confessions" of these doctrines. And in their definitions of God he is not physical, but spiritual. We cannot 'see' him because he has nothing physical about him that photons cannot bounce off!

CHAPTER II.

Of God, and of the Holy Trinity.

There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for, His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleaseth. In His sight all things are open and manifest, His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands. To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
The Confession of Faith of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster - Wikisource, the free online library
 
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Earburner

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As a traditional Reformed Evangelical Amillennial, I don't think there are any end-times events left to be fulfilled. ALL Old Testament promises were fulfilled by Jesus in the gospel events of his death and resurrection, in eschatological tension. Loosely described, eschatological tension is the 'now but not yet' tension of how we see Jesus reigning in the church - but that reign not yet fully manifest around Earth. We are now citizens of heaven, but do not yet see that in the world because the 'New Jerusalem' or heavenly reality has not been expressed in the New Heavens and New Earth yet.
I am a bit confused about your Amil view. Your site reference speaks a far different message. It is informing of how Christians should get involved with the restoration of the environment. Don't you know that the UN global agenda of "Saving the Earth" etc.
is playing right into the hands of satan, with his diabolical plan to save the only place of residence that he has? Will you be lining up with him in his plan of "The Great Reset", as he marshall's his armies for Armageddon? There is nothing here to save, except people who are still repenting and coming to God through Jesus.

Aren't we suppose to be looking for a NEW Heaven and a NEW earth, whose builder and maker is God?
(Yes, another point for my previous list, about what "New earth").
I don't agree with that of your reference.
http://socialissues.org.au/pdf/reports/SIE_Environment-A_Christian_Response.pdf
 
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eclipsenow

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I am a bit confused about your Amil view. Your site reference speaks a far different message. It is informing of how Christians should get involved with the restoration of the environment.
Climate change risks increasing geopolitical tensions, causing bigger wars than the Ukraine, and itself kills hundreds of thousands of people a year. It glorifies God to be primarily preaching the gospel but also involved in activism for creation care.

Don't you know that the UN global agenda of "Saving the Earth" etc.
Great agenda!


is playing right into the hands of satan,
Oh give me a break!
Climate change is real.
We have a duty not to so trash the joint that the next few thousand generations (Lord permitting) will look back on us as ignorant fools. As I said, he could return in 5 seconds or 50,000 years. We must live as if both are true!

with his diabolical plan to save the only place of residence that he has? Will you be lining up with him in his plan of "The Great Reset",
Great Reset - that's a Covid conspiracy theory, right?
Sorry dude - I'm out.
This is tinfoil hat territory.

There is nothing here to save, except people who are still repenting and coming to God through Jesus.
There is plenty to save for future generations.
You sound like you're in denial of both the science of climate change and our environmental impact, and the ethical obligations on yourself to DO something about this. As a friend with a Phd in theology and the environment said:

Some Christians, noting the borrowing of apocalyptic language by activists, are inclined to ignore the whole thing as another human attempt to claim control of even how the world is going to end. Instead, affirming that the end is in God's hands alone, they argue that any claims of humanity bringing about the end by our own efforts (even inadvertently) must be treated with extreme suspicion.

Personally, while it is difficult to get a good grip on the magnitude of the threat represented by climate change without recourse to some very strong language, I think that it is best to remain agnostic about the relationship between our preset distress and threats and the divine promises relating to ultimate realities. It may be that there is some link, but there is no particular reason in my opinion to think so. Even if our actions lead to the downfall of our way of life and the utter transformation of our society into something so different that in hindsight it is appropriate to speak of industrial civilisation having experienced a self-induced collapse, this need not be the end of the world. To use a line that is growing increasingly common, the end of the world as we know it is not necessarily the end of the world.​

And where this cuts the mustard for me is that sometimes apocalyptic thought can become a lazy way out of ethical deliberation. Apocalyptic becomes lazy where it is in the service of a fatalism that assumes our destiny is doomed by the greater power of nature (whether acting blindly, under its own authority as a personified (and angry) mother earth, or as the instrument of God's inexorable judgement) or which conversely rejects the possibility of social self-destruction in principle. In each case, the future is seen as closed and human actions as ultimately irrelevant, in which case, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. It can also be lazy where it is used to create panic and a desperate acceptance of whatever medicine is closest to hand. This is a kind of non-emancipatory shock that stuns the hearer into passive acceptance of the salvific social, economic and/or political solution that swiftly follows the apocalyptic account.
nothing new under the sun: The end is nigh? Apocalyptic thought and our present distress
 
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Timtofly

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That ignores the literary analysis of the text, the style of writing, the repeated number symbolism, and about 2000 years of theology and science and philosophy. Other than that, you done great!:doh:


Nah. Science comes from empirical observation, induction, data, etc. These are methods that Christians have used to expand our knowledge of THIS material universe, while they might also practice metaphysics to speculate on other worlds, and the bible to read about the spiritual universe.


This also ignores 2000 years of theology and science and philosophy. Other than that, you done great!:doh:

My point is to ignore the last 2 millenia of human theology, science, and philosophy. The emphasis is on human understanding. This part of 2 Thessalonians 2:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first.... For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

This mystery of iniquity is to let humans think they have full understanding over the millennia. That is why it is called a deception. The point is that Satan has aways pushed humans to gain more knowledge.

There is knowledge from God. It is found in His Word. Anything that takes us away from God's Word, yes, takes us in the opposite direction. A deception is supposed to look good and above board. Science does not have to be evil to be deception. Remember that knowledge gained gives both good and evil?
 
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