Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

[YeshuaFan]

Mmm, I wonder if this goes too far?
He reigns now over the church, his body, yes.
We are in the "millennium" / gazillion years now, between Jesus ascension and return.
But there will be a Return, Judgement Day, and New Heavens and New Earth as well.

The etrnal state can only happen once the Lord Jesus actually has His second coming, regardless of premil or A mil!

 

[eclipsenow]

The etrnal state can only happen once the Lord Jesus actually has His second coming, regardless of premil or A mil!

Which is pretty much the 2 Age model that Amil's talk about.

 

[jeffweedaman]

The etrnal state can only happen once the Lord Jesus actually has His second coming, regardless of premil or A mil!

Yes.
This happens the day he appears to Glorify his own and eternally separate the ungodly.


2Thess1
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yes.
This happens the day he appears to Glorify his own and eternally separate the ungodly.


2Thess1
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

So you would take Revelation as totally symbolic in meaning, no Antichrist at all?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Which is pretty much the 2 Age model that Amil's talk about.

So no future Antichrist, no great Tribulation period?

 

[jeffweedaman]

So you would take Revelation as totally symbolic in meaning, no Antichrist at all?

Where does revelation mention antichrist?

I prefer to use straight forward scripture to make my points.

I refer you back to my first post to you. Post 263

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


The appearing of Jesus coming will destroy the revealing of satans activity in all power and deception. Antichrist activity.


11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

After the Gospel is preached everywhere , God will send a deluding influence upon those who will perish , those who received not the love of his Gospel.

Salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and Faith in the Gospel will come to an end at his coming , appearing...obviously.


13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[eclipsenow]

So no future Antichrist, no great Tribulation period?

As a traditional Reformed Evangelical Amillennial, I don't think there are any end-times events left to be fulfilled. ALL Old Testament promises were fulfilled by Jesus in the gospel events of his death and resurrection, in eschatological tension. Loosely described, eschatological tension is the 'now but not yet' tension of how we see Jesus reigning in the church - but that reign not yet fully manifest around Earth. We are now citizens of heaven, but do not yet see that in the world because the 'New Jerusalem' or heavenly reality has not been expressed in the New Heavens and New Earth yet.

(There are some Amil's that still say there are a few last things that will occur - such as an Anti-Christ government, final more terrible persecution, and maybe even mass conversion of Jews. But no literal millennium - because WE are in the millennium right now. But I disagree with these views, as there are other ways to read the passages mentioned.)

Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way Americans read Revelation. Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know. Instead of a future timetable to take random guesses at, John indicates that Revelation is about the Roman persecution of the church that is about to start. 4 times in Revelation 1 he indicates it is to his generation:-

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (verse 1)
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3). This means they must obey it. How could the early church obey something about 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near." (verse 3) Yes, there is a sense in which the final Return of Jesus is also described as 'near' in Revelation - but this does not undermine this immediate sense of near in the introduction to this letter because....
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the TRIBULATION and the kingdom and the PATIENT ENDURANCE that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Verse 9 - ESV - capitals mine.) John already SHARES in *their* TRIBULATION! John was already in jail because of his gospel work, and already demonstrating the common theme throughout the rest of Revelation - that we overcome THIS time we are in by "patient endurance".

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to stay faithful in the time between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day. John uses powerful biblical symbols to describe (not prescribe) what this time will be like. And it could be a long time before Jesus Returns. The number 1000 is commonly used to mean "a gazillion" - like when Psalm 50 says God owns all the sheep on "a thousand hills." What about the other million hills - does God not own all those two? So Revelation describes a long time, and traces 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are *concurrent*, not consecutive.

What does a particular chapter or image mean? Like how to Amillennials read the number of the beast, etc? The Bible Project is a very good summary. These have had over 4 million views.
Revelation 1 to 11

Revelation 12 to 22.

Or it you want to go deeper, try (retired) Bishop Paul Barnett's book. He is not only a theologian, but has a doctorate in Ancient History and taught ancient history for many years, as well as leading tours of the bible lands.
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

Bottom line - it describes natural disasters, tyrants persecuting the church as 'beast-states', the temptations of trusting in materialism and luxury and even state security, and all manner of other trials and tribulations and temptations of the last 2000 years and counting.


FUTURIST DISAPPOINTMENT?
Are you really saying that Revelation is not a future-timetable to guess at? Doesn't that make the book boring if it's not ABOUT us? This is the great temptation in theology today. I do worry that reading Revelation as *about* us is a bit of a gateway drug to a kind of narcissistic saviour-complex. Instead of being inspired to love and serve Jesus and trust him no matter what - we become like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies, full of dread knowledge about the next few years - wanting everyone to take OUR timetable seriously! I see it in these forums, time and again. I see their predictions come and go and fail, time and again.

But imagine someone wanting the Epistles to be ABOUT us to be relevant! Imagine them saying "I'm not reading that, as it was written TO and ABOUT Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, etc. How boring! That's not relevant to my life now!"

That's basically how I see futurist objections to Revelation.

We learn how to do hermeneutics, understand what was written to Cornith and Galatia etc, in the ancient Greek. We read about how their culture would have understood the message, do the relevant cultural analysis then apply it today. If Amillennials are right about Revelation - then the same process MUST be used for Revelation. It turns out Revelation doesn't have to be ABOUT us to have a powerful message FOR us.

Also, imagine you're unfortunate enough to live in a country where Christians are persecuted today. I've heard stories from the front lines of persecution where Christians read Revelation as an amazing book of comfort in these times. The shocking imagery makes sense of the shocking things they are going through. There are powerful images that just make more sense when you've seen horrible things from the front lines of persecution. God's judgement and mercy make sense. But they nearly fall of the chair laughing at the suggestion that John would have written to his generation - "You think you've got it bad under the Romans, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"

MAKES BOOK IRRELEVANT TO JOHN'S READERS
I also want to ask Futurists what on earth has been the whole point of the book for the last 2000 years? The first chapter really sounds like John is writing to his generation and wants them to obey his message. But imagine if I said "The Cyborgs will zazzle the Nanocorp on the sides of Mount Olympus in the year 54,000 AD - hear and obey!" people today would just scratch their heads and ask "Obey what?" That's what futurists do to John's generation of readers. There's just nothing for them to understand - let alone obey!

FUTURISTS RISK DISILLUSIONING YOUNG PEOPLE WITH CHRISTIANITY ITSELF
Futurists play endless guessing games about their own end-times-tables that promise this and that in the next few years. But they always seem to disappoint. How many young people have got caught up in these narcissistic end-times-tables - all about us - only to wander away from the faith when it all fails to materialise? I mean, if we get this kind of promise wrong - what do we really know in the first place?

So I say check out Amillennialism at the videos and links above. It's worth it.

 

[Earburner]

Mmm, I wonder if this goes too far?
He reigns now over the church, his body, yes.
We are in the "millennium" / gazillion years now, between Jesus ascension and return.
But there will be a Return, Judgement Day, and New Heavens and New Earth as well.

This concept is not difficult to bring about, that it can't be realized and scripturally proven "by His Spirit". The problem is the limitations of our fleshly human mind. It is literally married to the reality of this planet, and thinks that this planet of earth is where God, the Creator of the Universe, wants to dwell.
Therefore the question is, does God want to literally live in/on "a planet earth", or is it that He wants to live/dwell within His people, who were created out of the earth by Him?

It's not that God needs or wants a planet to dwell on, but rather in His people of faith, who are His ultimate born again NEW creatures/creation. That is where He desires to dwell.

Quite literally, in the beginning, our bodies were created for God to dwell in, and not for a literal planet called earth.
BTW, did you happen to notice that in Genesis, satan was ALREADY HERE, opposing God? Was earth already planned to be as a "penal colony" for His wrath ofHis everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels on this planet?

As for our mortality here, we know nothing but this earth, and the earthen bodies of our mortal existence. However, we who are Born Again are now made to be spirit, by the Gift of His Holy Spirit, and for now, even though He is speaking and temporarily "tabernacling" within us, we have no idea of what our future Heavenly existence shall be like, in that Day of His Glorious return.

Another earth? A NEW one, and a NEW Heaven? What will it be like? Thls old one? Why should we think that it will be in a similar way?
Do you see? We can't imagine anything other than what is now.

There are quite a few scripture verses that hint at the fact that the new heaven and new earth will be nothing like that of today.
Here are just a few thoughts in scripture to dwell on.
1. Jesus' temple was his physical body,
2. For all who are Born Again, we are now His Body. From His Heavenly perspective, what does that really mean to present our bodies (ourselves) as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God?
3. In Christ, I died. But nevertheless, I live by Him that dwells within me. How far can we go with that thinking?
4. Is the will of God being done "in" the planet earth, or is it being done "in" the earth of our "earthen vessels"?
5. In the New Heaven and the NEW Earth,
what do the words mean, that there was no literal temple seen, but rather God the Father Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it?
6. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KoG.
If not, then what within us shall enable it to be so?
7. When Jesus Resurrected into NEW Life, and Ascended, was there mortal blood in His veins, after it was shed for our sins? Back to item #6.
8. Jesus walked through walls in the upper room, and is alive forever more by the Spirit of God. Being changed into His likeness on that Day, will we not inherit the same?
9. "The meek shall inherit the earth". Now seriously, one has to honestly dwell on that, in relation to what the Spirit says through Peter in in 2 Peter 3:10-12.
Which earth? This planet, or the earth of our "earthen vessels", being that of our bodies changed into the likeness of His immortality?
Those are just a few. I am sure you can add more.
Edit:
Isaiah 55:8-9
Zechariah 4:6
John 16:13

 

[Timtofly]

Quite literally, in the beginning, our bodies were created for God to dwell in, and not for a literal planet called earth.
BTW, did you happen to notice that in Genesis....

No they were not created for that purpose. God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. He did not take over their bodies and communicated from inside them. Can you give one verse that defines your point?

Was the serpent dwelling inside of Adam and Eve as well?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Where does revelation mention antichrist?

I prefer to use straight forward scripture to make my points.

I refer you back to my first post to you. Post 263

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.


The appearing of Jesus coming will destroy the revealing of satans activity in all power and deception. Antichrist activity.


11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

After the Gospel is preached everywhere , God will send a deluding influence upon those who will perish , those who received not the love of his Gospel.

Salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and Faith in the Gospel will come to an end at his coming , appearing...obviously.


13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

man of Sin a person, per Paul, and John stated future Antichrist yet to come!

 

[YeshuaFan]

As a traditional Reformed Evangelical Amillennial, I don't think there are any end-times events left to be fulfilled. ALL Old Testament promises were fulfilled by Jesus in the gospel events of his death and resurrection, in eschatological tension. Loosely described, eschatological tension is the 'now but not yet' tension of how we see Jesus reigning in the church - but that reign not yet fully manifest around Earth. We are now citizens of heaven, but do not yet see that in the world because the 'New Jerusalem' or heavenly reality has not been expressed in the New Heavens and New Earth yet.

(There are some Amil's that still say there are a few last things that will occur - such as an Anti-Christ government, final more terrible persecution, and maybe even mass conversion of Jews. But no literal millennium - because WE are in the millennium right now. But I disagree with these views, as there are other ways to read the passages mentioned.)

Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way Americans read Revelation. Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know. Instead of a future timetable to take random guesses at, John indicates that Revelation is about the Roman persecution of the church that is about to start. 4 times in Revelation 1 he indicates it is to his generation:-

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (verse 1)
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3). This means they must obey it. How could the early church obey something about 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near." (verse 3) Yes, there is a sense in which the final Return of Jesus is also described as 'near' in Revelation - but this does not undermine this immediate sense of near in the introduction to this letter because....
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the TRIBULATION and the kingdom and the PATIENT ENDURANCE that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Verse 9 - ESV - capitals mine.) John already SHARES in *their* TRIBULATION! John was already in jail because of his gospel work, and already demonstrating the common theme throughout the rest of Revelation - that we overcome THIS time we are in by "patient endurance".

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to stay faithful in the time between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day. John uses powerful biblical symbols to describe (not prescribe) what this time will be like. And it could be a long time before Jesus Returns. The number 1000 is commonly used to mean "a gazillion" - like when Psalm 50 says God owns all the sheep on "a thousand hills." What about the other million hills - does God not own all those two? So Revelation describes a long time, and traces 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are *concurrent*, not consecutive.

What does a particular chapter or image mean? Like how to Amillennials read the number of the beast, etc? The Bible Project is a very good summary. These have had over 4 million views.
Revelation 1 to 11

Revelation 12 to 22.

Or it you want to go deeper, try (retired) Bishop Paul Barnett's book. He is not only a theologian, but has a doctorate in Ancient History and taught ancient history for many years, as well as leading tours of the bible lands.
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

Bottom line - it describes natural disasters, tyrants persecuting the church as 'beast-states', the temptations of trusting in materialism and luxury and even state security, and all manner of other trials and tribulations and temptations of the last 2000 years and counting.


FUTURIST DISAPPOINTMENT?
Are you really saying that Revelation is not a future-timetable to guess at? Doesn't that make the book boring if it's not ABOUT us? This is the great temptation in theology today. I do worry that reading Revelation as *about* us is a bit of a gateway drug to a kind of narcissistic saviour-complex. Instead of being inspired to love and serve Jesus and trust him no matter what - we become like Sarah Connor from the Terminator movies, full of dread knowledge about the next few years - wanting everyone to take OUR timetable seriously! I see it in these forums, time and again. I see their predictions come and go and fail, time and again.

But imagine someone wanting the Epistles to be ABOUT us to be relevant! Imagine them saying "I'm not reading that, as it was written TO and ABOUT Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, etc. How boring! That's not relevant to my life now!"

That's basically how I see futurist objections to Revelation.

We learn how to do hermeneutics, understand what was written to Cornith and Galatia etc, in the ancient Greek. We read about how their culture would have understood the message, do the relevant cultural analysis then apply it today. If Amillennials are right about Revelation - then the same process MUST be used for Revelation. It turns out Revelation doesn't have to be ABOUT us to have a powerful message FOR us.

Also, imagine you're unfortunate enough to live in a country where Christians are persecuted today. I've heard stories from the front lines of persecution where Christians read Revelation as an amazing book of comfort in these times. The shocking imagery makes sense of the shocking things they are going through. There are powerful images that just make more sense when you've seen horrible things from the front lines of persecution. God's judgement and mercy make sense. But they nearly fall of the chair laughing at the suggestion that John would have written to his generation - "You think you've got it bad under the Romans, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"

MAKES BOOK IRRELEVANT TO JOHN'S READERS
I also want to ask Futurists what on earth has been the whole point of the book for the last 2000 years? The first chapter really sounds like John is writing to his generation and wants them to obey his message. But imagine if I said "The Cyborgs will zazzle the Nanocorp on the sides of Mount Olympus in the year 54,000 AD - hear and obey!" people today would just scratch their heads and ask "Obey what?" That's what futurists do to John's generation of readers. There's just nothing for them to understand - let alone obey!

FUTURISTS RISK DISILLUSIONING YOUNG PEOPLE WITH CHRISTIANITY ITSELF
Futurists play endless guessing games about their own end-times-tables that promise this and that in the next few years. But they always seem to disappoint. How many young people have got caught up in these narcissistic end-times-tables - all about us - only to wander away from the faith when it all fails to materialise? I mean, if we get this kind of promise wrong - what do we really know in the first place?

So I say check out Amillennialism at the videos and links above. It's worth it.

Would say also that Historical premil was a prominent position until Augustine made the Amil the main view, as per him equating the Church of Rome as being the Kingdom here on earth!

 

[Earburner]

man of Sin a person, per Paul, and John stated future Antichrist yet to come!

No! "man of sin", as in "the natural man", meaning in the plural. There are many who are of "that spirit of antichrist".
1John.2[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
The emphasis is on the word "ye have heard that antichrist shall come", and not "ye have heard that antichrist shall come.
1John.4[3] And every spirit [and person of flesh] that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Earburner]

No they were not created for that purpose. God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. He did not take over their bodies and communicated from inside them. Can you give one verse that defines your point?


Was the serpent dwelling inside of Adam and Eve as well?

Adam and Eve were created having innocence only, being void of the knowledge of evil or good, and were without eternal existence of any kind.

 

[YeshuaFan]

No! "man of sin", as in "the natural man", meaning in the plural. There are many who are of "that spirit of antichrist".
1John.2[18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
The emphasis is on the word "ye have heard that antichrist shall come", and not "ye have heard that antichrist shall come.
1John.4[3] And every spirit [and person of flesh] that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

man of Sin if a person , who shall be slain by the Lord Jesus at His second coming!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Adam and Eve were created having innocence only, being void of the knowledge of evil or good, and were without eternal existence of any kind.

They would have physically lived forever if had not sinned!

 

[Earburner]

They would have physically lived forever if had not sinned!

Only if they had eaten of the Tree of Life.

 

[Earburner]

man of Sin if a person , who shall be slain by the Lord Jesus at His second coming!

So then, no one else, who is "a man of sin", being those who are "the natural man", will be slain upon Jesus coming? Scripture shows otherwise, and that it will be a simultaneous event.

2 Thessalonians 1[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed)
IN THAT DAY.

 

[eclipsenow]

It's not that God needs or wants a planet to dwell on, but rather in His people of faith, who are His ultimate born again NEW creatures/creation. That is where He desires to dwell.

This view is so contrary to scripture I find myself agreeing with Timtofly - and that rarely happens! So be warned. If you can be so far 'out there' that Timtofly and I are both looking at each other across the vastness of the internet at each other as allies against something truly 'different' - then you're in some truly strange new territory.

Quite literally, in the beginning, our bodies were created for God to dwell in, and not for a literal planet called earth.

I think you've swallowed some Greek Gnosticism along the way. It's not hard. It's even in popular culture like The Simpsons and Star Wars, where material flesh is corrupted, but spirit is good. This will not do! It's not biblical. It's not MATTER itself that is 'bad' as when God made the world he declared it was good! It's our rebellion.

BTW, did you happen to notice that in Genesis, satan was ALREADY HERE, opposing God? Was earth already planned to be as a "penal colony" for His wrath ofHis everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels on this planet?

It's a huge theological and philosophical subject - but basically the snake represents something disgusting and evil. Genesis 1 to 11 are describing real things that actually happened, but 'dressed up' in theological language and symbolism. That is, if we were there when the first humans actually 'woke up' to God's existence and their choice (after that long period of evolution and all that), I'm not sure what the rebellion would actually have looked like! How much is literal and how much is literary?

As for our mortality here, we know nothing but this earth, and the earthen bodies of our mortal existence.

And Jesus embraced all that gladly.

However, we who are Born Again are now made to be spirit, by the Gift of His Holy Spirit, and for now, even though He is speaking and temporarily "tabernacling" within us, we have no idea of what our future Heavenly existence shall be like, in that Day of His Glorious return.

There are some finer details we of course do not know - like what it will be like to be sinless. But you don't seem to understand that when Jesus was raised, he was raised physically. That wasn't just for our hope, but a sign that this whole material universe has hope! That is, he is the first human, but also the first material thing from this universe, to be resurrected into the next. He was physically raised. The gospel itself celebrates the sheer joy of this physical creation.

So I'm not sure 'God' - who is spirit and trinity - will be in the New Creation. But Jesus will, and he IS God - so there you have it.

 

[eclipsenow]

They would have physically lived forever if had not sinned!

I'm not sure of this! Science shows us evolution is how God made the world. Now, at some point God 'woke up' the first humans to his existence, and they had a moral duty to follow him. I'm not sure what they looked like at this point. Genesis 1 to 11 is very literary, hardly literal. That is, it describes real events, but dressed up in theological language to explain those events to us - without really worrying about the details of those events so much.

Modern American Creationists have lost the 'grittiness' of Eden - and I think make it into a very Pollyanna sort of place. However, check these thoughts on death before the fall from John Calvin - one of the Reformers - way before Charles Darwin ever made us question the origins of humans. (Calvin lived 1509 to 1564.) Calvin is basically a theological checklist for modern Anglican orthodoxy. And here he is arguing what death before the fall would have looked like. I wish American creationists actually read outside their theological comfort zone and realised there is so much more to Genesis than their dry, reductionist 'shopping list' of what God did when. There's so much more going on!
Did death occur before the Fall? - Common-questions

 

[Earburner]

There are some finer details we of course do not know - like what it will be like to be sinless. But you don't seem to understand that when Jesus was raised, he was raised physically

Because you don't understand the scriptures I alluded to in my description/interpretations of them, now I'm the "bad guy"? Really?
It's OK to think outside the box of religious doctrines!
In fact, Jesus invites us to think with His Mind, and to understand that God's thoughts and His ways are not ours. Isaiah 55:8-9, John 16:13.

Never would I sidestep such a real event, of the Lord being physically raised "from the dead" to New Life, of whom then appeared physically in the newness of His life to the disciples for 40 days afterwards.

And what of Paul, on Damascus road? Did he see the literal light of Jesus, as was that of the Lord's Trsnsfiguration, or did he just hear His voice? Yes, he was blinded by it.

I am not rambling on in my own mind here, so please don't tag me with the likes of "spiritism".
What I am saying, is that Jesus can be both Spirit and Glorified flesh and bone at anytime, and at will.
If that offends you, then that was not my intention.
I was simply pointing out that after His Resurrection, Jesus entered into the upper room, and it wasn't through the doorway. And that He did again 8 days later.

"Everyone loves to hear about the historical Jesus, but not many want to hear from the Spiritual Jesus."
John 16:13