Can a person love without the Ten Commandments

[mva1985]

Concerning my last post - I have never asked that you trust what I write to you. I hope that you would trust the Scriptures themselves, and verify that what I write is truthful, if I left out important context, you know, find out for yourself, that kind of stuff.

Romans 7:6-7 is specific that we're delivered from the ten commandments.
2 Corinthians 3 is specific that the law inscribed on the tables of stone, that Moses carried down in Exodus 34, are abolished.
Hebrews 8 is specific that the covenant of the ten commandments given at Sinai was replaced with a better covenant based on better promises, and the covenant given at Sinai isn't permitted entrance into our hearts and minds.
Galatians 4 is specific in making an allegory of Hagar equivalent with the covenant of the ten commandments given at Sinai. In this allegory, Hagar (and Sinai) gender bondage, and her disposition is that she is to be disposed of, because she has no inheritance with the free woman and her children.

Go and read these chapters, and verify that the description of each one is as I claim it is.

Victor

I have gone back and reread those texts and I don't believe it is what you state it is.

You don't have to worry about me taking a person at there word - I will check the scriptures out for myself.

But at this point I am convinced one way and you another - that is the way it will have to be.

Such is life.

 

[mva1985]

And you're going to tell God that you're going to make Him happy by keeping the law He already declared you disobedient to?


You aren't going to please God by your motions, going back to what He set you free from.

He has set us free from sin and given us eternal life - there is no doubt but He has not set us free from continuing in sin.

There are several places in the NT that have whole lists of the type of people who will not go to Heaven because they continue in sin.

Sin will not rise a second time (Nahum 1:9).

 

[VictorC]

I have gone back and reread those texts and I don't believe it is what you state it is.

You don't have to worry about me taking a person at there word - I will check the scriptures out for myself.

But at this point I am convinced one way and you another - that is the way it will have to be.

Such is life.

Romans 14:5-6
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

Well, there exists no grounds to judge what you deem is right, and I bid you well in doing so.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

He has set us free from sin and given us eternal life - there is no doubt but He has not set us free from continuing in sin.

There are several places in the NT that have whole lists of the type of people who will not go to Heaven because they continue in sin.

Sin will not rise a second time (Nahum 1:9).

You must remember that sin arose before there was a law to prohibit it, as Romans 5:13 tells us For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin and law are disparate subjects, and need to be treated as such. We live in a land wherein our forefathers outlined the principles of government in documents so small that anyone can easily sit down and read them - and crime was not the problem that it is today. Now, our Congress creatures crank out an entire library in the Federal Register that everyone is supposed to abide by, and it is unreadable by nature of sheer magnitude. We have entered Ayn Rand's nightmare where everyone is a criminal because of massive tomes of contradictory laws that themselves contradict the Constitution that codified the founding of this Union. If you were to pay your property tax (itself an assault on property rights) using paper money, you violated the earlier law mandating that nothing but gold and silver is to be used to discharge public debt. This nation is mired in sin and it isn't because of a lack of laws.

Laws do not make a person do what is right. Words on a piece of paper, or even stone tables, do not produce righteousness. They never did, and they never will. They only condemn and take away life.

2 Corinthians 3:5-8
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 ¶ who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Moses virtually glowed in the dark when he came down the mount with the you-know-what (Exodus 34:28-30). That glory was passing away and is abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13).
The glory of the Spirit is greater, and it is He who gives life.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

I kind of thought so but my quote fit with your statements anyway for those who don't receive the Ten Commandments.

I'm sure I mentioned before that I'm a Gentile.
My "reception" of the decalogue covenant was never an option offered to me.

 

[k4c]

I'm sure I mentioned before that I'm a Gentile.
My "reception" of the decalogue covenant was never an option offered to me.

As a Gentile you are lost without hope but through Christ you have been grafted into Israel.

 

[VictorC]

As a Gentile you are lost without hope but through Christ you have been grafted into Israel.

You mean were, not are.

Epesians 2:11-16
11 ¶ Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh----who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands----
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

As long as Moses stood between Abraham and the Gentiles, we could not be grafted into Israel's heritage. Now that the decalogue covenant (the 'enmity') has been abolished, I have entered into Abraham's received promise by the Blood of Christ.

Victor

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Laws do not make a person do what is right. Words on a piece of paper, or even stone tables, do not produce righteousness. They never did, and they never will. They only condemn and take away life.

2 Corinthians 3:5-8
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 ¶ who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Moses virtually glowed in the dark when he came down the mount with the you-know-what (Exodus 34:28-30). That glory was passing away and is abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13).
The glory of the Spirit is greater, and it is He who gives life.

I'm sure I mentioned before that I'm a Gentile.
My "reception" of the decalogue covenant was never an option offered to me.

You mean were, not are.

Epesians 2:11-16
11 ¶ Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh----who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands----
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

As long as Moses stood between Abraham and the Gentiles, we could not be grafted into Israel's heritage. Now that the decalogue covenant (the 'enmity') has been abolished, I have entered into Abraham's received promise by the Blood of Christ.

in the morning when i rise
in the morning when i rise
in the morning when i rise
give me JESUS

give me JESUS, give me JESUS
YOU MAY HAVE ALL YOUR LAWS.
GIVE ME ... JESUS!!!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Those who wish to do so may rely entirely upon their own righteousness established through their obedience to the Law of God (decalogue or otherwise).

Moriah will cast its helpless, wretched, sinful, sick being entirely at the feet of Christ and entirely upon His mercy and trust in nothing else BUT that. Nothing else feels safe but HIM.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Victor, many people today are interested in honoring a tradition instead of following the reality of the Bible. Almost all churches are guilty of this to some extent. Examples are celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th and putting up Christmas trees, Birthdays, and worshiping on Sunday in place of the Sabbath. No where in the Bible do you see support to do any of the above but yet some of us Christians still do these very things.


This was the case many years ago when Jesus challenged the Israelites to think outside their reality. As we all know, the Jewish folks accepted some parts of scripture but ignored other parts. They followed their tradition over what was written in the Bible. Had they taken into account all of prophecy, they might have been able to realize that their Messiah has already come. However, because of the hardness of their hearts, some missed out on their salvation.

Victor C:

The ten commandments would be valid for today for the sole purpose of condemnation for those who remain under the jurisdiction of that covenant. For, as Romans 2:12 says,
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

Its a good thing we can read all of scripture and not ignore certain parts. Romans: 2:14-15:

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

What does it say? It says since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their heart. What requirements? The same requirements that Jesus fulfilled. What law did Jesus follow during his life? The 10 commandments.

I'm a Gentile, in that first category, who would have been destined to perish without hope (as Ephesians 2:11-16 explains).
For those who are in the law of that covenant, Romans 3:19 settles their future:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

Indeed, the world is in fact guilty. Why are we guilty? Because we break the law. The law that is written in our hearts and the Jews who continue to follow the old covenant. How else can the world be guilty before God if they weren't violating the law given to them by God. Thats the very definition of Sin. But again your focusing on grace. Does grace mean that we can do whatever we want? Can we now murder, commit adultery, steal, covet another mans wife etc?? What does the Bible say about grace?

Romans 3:21-22:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Great, righteousness, that is being made right w/ God comes through faith in Jesus Christ. What does faith in Jesus Christ bring though? Id do what the bible says here.

Romans 3:31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Seems clear to me there! Nothing can be clearer then what Paul says in that one passage alone. We uphold the law.


Victor C:

Yes, you're right - God has never changed His intent to redeem man by His own shed Blood. Is that true of His covenant, which is His creation, and needs to be understood as separate from the Sovereign Creator? No. Please explain all the changes and nullifications and placing the law in the past tense as presented in Hebrews 7:12-28, identified in the next chapter as the covenant given at Sinai, the ten commandments.

What the law this passage is referring to is the law created in ordinances. Not the 10 commandments. In fact, Hebrews 7:18 is clear about why these laws are set aside. When referring to the law(ordinance) about priests being delivered only from the tribe of Levi it says,

Hebrews 7:18:

The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless

Why was it set aside? Because it was weak and useless. I would hardly argue that any of the 10 commandments are weak and useless. Paul is very consistent in the things he says.

Victor C:

You do realize the specific law you're talking about is His covenant given at Sinai, don't you (Deuteronomy 4:13)
What does this passage mean from Hebrews 10:9?
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

What is the 'first'?
What is the 'second'?
What is the disposition of the 'first'?

Once again, I am glad we can read all of scripture and not follow what tickles our ears. If you continue to read Paul establishes what the first covenant hes referring to is.

Hebrews 10:11-12

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.

He is referring to covenant of atonement through the sacrifice of lambs! Jesus became our final sacrificial Lamb. He cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect. Why?

Hebrews 10:10

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Because we are made holy by the sacrifice of Jesus. We are not made holy by the first covenant which is the sacrifice of the Lamb! Notice the definition of the first covenant here. Its defined for you. It never says that the 10 commandments was the first covenant.

What will the new covenant do?

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

The new covenant never claims to do away with the law but write them on our hearts. Not the law in ordinances but the Law of God. And we already know that the law of God is the 10 commandments. Unless you have some new laws that we don't know about?

Victor C:

What were God's commandments to Abraham?
Circumcision? Packing bags and leaving Ur of the Chaldees?
Not the ten commandments, which would not exist for another 430 years:
Galatians 3:17-18
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Just look at the passage in the Bible:

Genesis: 26:5

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Notice how commandments, statues, charge, and laws are all placed in its own categories. The commandments were written in his heart. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would have had to be. Gods laws are eternal, and the 10 commandments will never go away. Otherwise would it be ok for Abraham to commit blasphemy? Was that ok by God? what do you think? What does the Bible say about those sins? When Cane killed Abel in the garden of Eden was that ok by God?

Genesis 4:6-10

And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

God warned Cain that he will be accepted if he does whats right (righteousness). God warned him against sin(transgression of Gods eternal laws), the law that he wrote in our hearts. The law that was tainted by Adam and Eve after they ate the forbidden fruit. The law that God had to establish on tables of stone because our sin became so great.

Wrong. The law written into our hearts and minds is qualified by these words in Hebrews 8:9:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt.

That covenant made at Sinai was the ten commandments, and it doesn't go into our hearts. This statement is verbatim from Jeremiah's prophecy.
I wrote more detail on this very topic in the denomination-specific theology area, in a post entitled God replaces the schoolmaster, please peruse at your pleasure (the link should take you directly to it).

I would like to briefly point out that Hebrews 8:9 once again is referring to the new covenant that Jesus established. Everything noted about what the old covenant was referring to is outlined in Hebrews 10. The covenant at sinai is not the covenant god replaced. Hebrews 8:10 establishes what the new covenant is about. Instead of writing gods laws on stone, he will now write them on your hearts.

Its not hard, the bible is clear as crystal. I would go with Jesus teaching before Id go with a man made teaching.

Matthew: 5:18

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did earth pass away? Not one jot, not one tittle of the law will be destroyed Jesus says.

Ask yourself another question, why would God bother with the 10 commandments to begin with? Why not just give us his grace and forget about everything? Just write it on our hearts and be done w/ it? Think about that one carefully.

God Bless, and open your heart and mind regarding this matter!

 

[RND]

Nice summation Man-ofGod. Loved your last point especially.

 

[StormyOne]

Heb 8:7-12 If the first agreement with God had been all right, there would not have been any need for another one. (8) But the Lord found fault with it and said, "I tell you the time will come, when I will make a new agreement with the people of Israel and the people of Judah. (9) It won't be like the agreement that I made with their ancestors, when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. They broke their agreement with me, and I stopped caring about them! (10) "But now I tell the people of Israel this is my new agreement: 'The time will come when I, the Lord, will write my laws on their minds and hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. (11) Not one of them will have to teach another to know me, their Lord.' "All of them will know me, no matter who they are. (12) I will treat them with kindness, even though they are wicked. I will forget their sins."

 

[RND]

"New" agreement not "No" agreement.

Heb 8:7-12 If the first agreement with God had been all right, there would not have been any need for another one. (8) But the Lord found fault with it and said, "I tell you the time will come, when I will make a new agreement with the people of Israel and the people of Judah. (9) It won't be like the agreement that I made with their ancestors, when I took them by the hand and led them out of Egypt. They broke their agreement with me, and I stopped caring about them! (10) "But now I tell the people of Israel this is my new agreement: 'The time will come when I, the Lord, will write my laws on their minds and hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. (11) Not one of them will have to teach another to know me, their Lord.' "All of them will know me, no matter who they are. (12) I will treat them with kindness, even though they are wicked. I will forget their sins."

 

[VictorC]

Victor, many people today are interested in honoring a tradition instead of following the reality of the Bible. Almost all churches are guilty of this to some extent. Examples are celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th and putting up Christmas trees, Birthdays, and worshiping on Sunday in place of the Sabbath. No where in the Bible do you see support to do any of the above but yet some of us Christians still do these very things.

Certainly there are far too many manmade traditions that are in practice, and this is nothing new. I see evidence of it all the time, and it manifests itself even now with the notion that there is a sabbath ordinance present today, and some have even taken this non-existent sabbath and claim it now to be on Sunday.
Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

This was the case many years ago when Jesus challenged the Israelites to think outside their reality. As we all know, the Jewish folks accepted some parts of scripture but ignored other parts. They followed their tradition over what was written in the Bible. Had they taken into account all of prophecy, they might have been able to realize that their Messiah has already come. However, because of the hardness of their hearts, some missed out on their salvation.

You seem to think that this surprised God. It didn't. As Romans 11:7-8 explains,
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.

This chapter explains that through the disobedience of Israel, salvation has become available to the Gentiles. Very simply, as Romans 11:32 concludes, For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. This isn't disobedience on the part of those who rejected Messiah, but all, including those who have obtained salvation.

Its a good thing we can read all of scripture and not ignore certain parts. Romans: 2:14-15:
What does it say? It says since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their heart. What requirements?

What law is "written" in the Gentiles? Romans 2:14 is very plain that the Gentiles do not have the law! It was from verse 12 previous to this that Paul asserted that the Gentiles would perish without the law. It should have become apparent to you that the "requirements of the law" were not sufficient to permit the Gentiles a relationship with God that would provide their salvation.

The same requirements that Jesus fulfilled.

If the requirements are fulfilled in Messiah, what is left that is dependent on your performance?
Is your salvation dependent on your performance (and God has already called you disobedient), or is God's performance sufficient?

What law did Jesus follow during his life? The 10 commandments.

Only ten commandments? It may have been a while since you've stepped inside a kosher home.
More important is why did Jesus comply with the law? Very simply, He Who was above the law (Galatians 4:1) submitted Himself to the law for a purpose. As Galatians 4:4-5 summarizes:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Salvation is dependent on adoption, not performance of your dead works.
Perhaps it wasn't apparent that redemption extracted those under the law, placed in the past-tense by the use of "were".

Indeed, the world is in fact guilty. Why are we guilty? Because we break the law. The law that is written in our hearts and the Jews who continue to follow the old covenant. How else can the world be guilty before God if they weren't violating the law given to them by God. Thats the very definition of Sin. But again your focusing on grace. Does grace mean that we can do whatever we want? Can we now murder, commit adultery, steal, covet another mans wife etc?? What does the Bible say about grace?

You skipped the very passage that addresses this, as Paul had encountered that very argument before. Romans 3:7-9
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say, Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin...

Liberty isn't a license to do evil.
Perhaps you should consider that the argument you just used was grounds for Paul to declare that your condemnation is justified.
Then you can explain why we, the redeemed, aren't any better than those deserving damnation.
At the very least, you should never use this approach again.

In and though all of this, the Scripture I presented to you has gone unanswered. As Romans 3:19 concludes,
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The law isn't addressing the world in general; the Gentiles were condemned in the previous chapter for the reason they didn't have a covenant relationship with God.
This verse is addressing those under the Mosaic covenant, the ten commandments, and leaves you guilty before God.

That is the Scripture, not manmade tradition.
This verse is just prior to the passages explaining justification by "propitiation through faith in his blood" (Romans 3:25) and concludes His righteousness apart from the law.

Great, righteousness, that is being made right w/ God comes through faith in Jesus Christ. What does faith in Jesus Christ bring though? Id do what the bible says here.

Romans 3:31:Seems clear to me there! Nothing can be clearer then what Paul says in that one passage alone. We uphold the law.

We have seen theology via soundbites out of their context many times, and this is such an example. This statement leads into these verses:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

"Upholding the law" is used to justify these statements asserting the imputation of righteousness without the law that are contained in the writings of the law.

What the law this passage is referring to is the law created in ordinances. Not the 10 commandments. In fact, Hebrews 7:18 is clear about why these laws are set aside. When referring to the law(ordinance) about priests being delivered only from the tribe of Levi it says,

Hebrews 7:18:

Why was it set aside? Because it was weak and useless. I would hardly argue that any of the 10 commandments are weak and useless. Paul is very consistent in the things he says.

Once again, I am glad we can read all of scripture and not follow what tickles our ears. If you continue to read Paul establishes what the first covenant hes referring to is.

I agree that you and I should not abide by ticklish soundbites; I hope you don't mind my observation that this is precisely what you have done. You can argue that the author (we can't assert that it is Paul) isn't calling the ten commandments "weak and useless", but that isn't according to the Scriptures. I had pointed out in my last post "Please explain all the changes and nullifications and placing the law in the past tense as presented in Hebrews 7:12-28, identified in the next chapter as the covenant given at Sinai, the ten commandments.

Look at the context:
Hebrews 8:6-13
6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

This passage asserts that there is a better covenant to replace the faulty old one that came from Sinai. It also says that the law written into us isn't according to that previous covenant, and has the result of knowing the Author without any more need to receive instruction. This doesn't fit the description of a written ordinance, which is incapable of this set goal. This passage concludes that the covenant that came from Sinai is decaying and is ready to vanish away.

What was that covenant from Sinai?
Deuteronomy 4:12-13
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

It is from that foundation that two chapters later Hebrews 10:9 states:
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

continued in part 2

 

[VictorC]

Part 2, broken up because of excessive length - overlap from the previous post is present to retain some context:

I agree that you and I should not abide by ticklish soundbites; I hope you don't mind my observation that this is precisely what you have done. You can argue that the author (we can't assert that it is Paul) isn't calling the ten commandments "weak and useless", but that isn't according to the Scriptures. I had pointed out in my last post "Please explain all the changes and nullifications and placing the law in the past tense as presented in Hebrews 7:12-28, identified in the next chapter as the covenant given at Sinai, the ten commandments.

Look at the context:
Hebrews 8:6-13
6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

This passage asserts that there is a better covenant to replace the faulty old one that came from Sinai. It also says that the law written into us isn't according to that previous covenant, and has the result of knowing the Author without any more need to receive instruction. This doesn't fit the description of a written ordinance, which is incapable of this set goal. This passage concludes that the covenant that came from Sinai is decaying and is ready to vanish away.

What was that covenant from Sinai?
Deuteronomy 4:12-13
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

It is from that foundation that two chapters later Hebrews 10:9 states:
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

He is referring to covenant of atonement through the sacrifice of lambs! Jesus became our final sacrificial Lamb. He cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect. Why?

There is no such thing as a "covenant of atonement" that was made at Sinai.
That was creative of you, but it isn't faithful to the Scriptures.

It never says that the 10 commandments was the first covenant.

Exodus 34:27-28
27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
28 ¶ And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

What will the new covenant do?

The new covenant never claims to do away with the law but write them on our hearts. Not the law in ordinances but the Law of God. And we already know that the law of God is the 10 commandments.

Hebrews 8:7-8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Unless you have some new laws that we don't know about?

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Genesis: 26:5
Notice how commandments, statues, charge, and laws are all placed in its own categories. The commandments were written in his heart. If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would have had to be. Gods laws are eternal, and the 10 commandments will never go away. Otherwise would it be ok for Abraham to commit blasphemy? Was that ok by God? what do you think? What does the Bible say about those sins? When Cane killed Abel in the garden of Eden was that ok by God?

Deuteronomy 5:2-3
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Its not hard, the bible is clear as crystal. I would go with Jesus teaching before Id go with a man made teaching.

Yet it is you who has asserted that the ten commandments remain binding, even though they leave you guilty before God, and this faulty covenant has decayed and has been taken away. You also asserted that this covenant existed with Abraham and Cain, in clear defiance to the testimony provided by Moses.

Ask yourself another question, why would God bother with the 10 commandments to begin with? Why not just give us his grace and forget about everything? Just write it on our hearts and be done w/ it? Think about that one carefully.

It isn't necessary to think on that, as Scripture has provided the answer for us in Galatians 3:21-26:

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

To Scripture I add nothing.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

"New" agreement not "No" agreement.

One that would not be according to the old one.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Victor, many people today are interested in honoring a tradition instead of following the reality of the Bible....

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
​

John 5:37-40. Whether or not one decorates an evergreen in December has nothing to do with whether or not one comes to Christ to have life. Romans 14 and other passages in the NT make it abundantly clear we bes commanded above all NOT to judge one another on trifling matters. If we bes told not to judge others on the basis of what they eat or drink, which also has strict laws written in the OT, then certainly this would also apply to whether or not one partakes of secular festivities surrounding social holiday celebrations within one's culture.

The "god" that seemed to care about such things turned out to be the same "god" that took Moriah into a deep bitter hole of scathing spiritual and emotional abuse surrounding the whole bothersome blather of nitpicking perfectionism, and abandoned it callousedly to be overrun by demons upon discovering it could not be "perfect" in that sense. The God that has His hand outstretched to save Moriah today, to give it hope and a future (and one day, it believes, freedom and a mind of its own and a vessel it may fully possess in honor and be possessed only by the Holy Spirit) does not care about this nonsense. He cares more that others should stop judging people based on this nonsense and stop oppressing souls trying to find their way to the Saviour with this nitpicking "a rule for every breath you take" nonsense. God did NOT intend us to live that way, in bondage to fear and superstition albeit a bizarre OT-flavoured type.

Ask yourself another question, why would God bother with the 10 commandments to begin with? Why not just give us his grace and forget about everything? Just write it on our hearts and be done w/ it? Think about that one carefully.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
​

Romans 3:19-24.
May God bless us and open our minds and hearts to free us ALL from a bondage that by nature CAN only steal, kill and destroy.

 

[RND]

The "covenant" hasn't changed, how it is offered is. It's not written on stone anymore, it's written on the heart.

Stone to flesh.

Psa 37:31 The law of his God [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

One that would not be according to the old one.

As I said, "new" not "none."

 

[VictorC]

The "covenant" hasn't changed, how it is offered is. It's not written on stone anymore, it's written on the heart.

Yet you aren't willing to accept that Scripture says the covenant from Sinai isn't allowed reception into our hearts and minds, and that the previous covenant is ready to vanish away and is taken away by Christ.

Hebrews 8:6-13
6 ¶ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

This passage asserts that there is a better covenant to replace the faulty old one that came from Sinai. It also says that the law written into us isn't according to that previous covenant, and has the result of knowing the Author without any more need to receive instruction. This doesn't fit the description of a written ordinance, which is incapable of this set goal. This passage concludes that the covenant that came from Sinai is decaying and is ready to vanish away.

What was that covenant from Sinai?
Deuteronomy 4:12-13
12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

It is from that foundation that two chapters later Hebrews 10:9 states:
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Stone to flesh.

Yet it is the character of the heart that is changed, and the writing on the two tables of stone is taken away.

Psa 37:31 The law of his God [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

All of these citations come from the jurisdiction of the old covenant, and do not describe the new one that is established on better promises (Hebrews 8:6).

Isaiah 28:14-18
14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

This is that covenant that Paul identified as the "ministration of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7, written on the tables of stone.
The ten commandments were and are a death sentence to all within their grasp, leaving those under them guilty before God, just as Romans 3:19 says they do.

As I said, "new" not "none."

And as Scripture says, the new is not according to the old.

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Victor

 

[RND]

I used to wonder why Jesus mentioned only five of the second group of the Ten Commandments when talking to the rich young ruler until I realized that He was trying to correct the covetousness of this man.

If Jesus' intention was to "eliminate" the Ten Commandments and usher in the period of grace after the cross, why'd He bother?